Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[Woodsanity]

Lebron is right where he was before this, somewhere between top 5 and top 10 and thats generous. No top 5 player would have stacked the deck in his favor so shamelessly, and gotten so many benefits and from the league, his corporate masters, rules, reffs etc only to end up with only 4 titles, 3 of which came in the most unconvincing ways, in 17 years and I seriously doubt anyone within the top 10 would fair worse either.
By the way, ratings were at an all time low. Aint never seen a top 2 player that nobody cared to watch

[mickie]

1. MJ
2. Kareem



3. LeBron
4. Bill Russell
5. Bird

[Alize]

Okay keep reaching son.

The 2020 NBA Finals nobody watched. Game 6 nobody watched. There must be a reason why you ignore the record drop off in interest that far exceeds all other sports

The drop off is a combination of the pandemic and the BLM messaging. Nothing to do with Lebron

Lebron has 2 worst rated finals ever.
His best is 3 million lower than Jordans worst.
Edit: i looked at the wrong number. It closer to few hundred thousand but his best does not beat Jordans worst.
Lebron has had the best selling jersey for 5 seasons since coming into the league.
Kobe has 6 seasons in 1 decade as the best selling jersey.

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[otwok]

Lebron is the goat. Jordan couldnt do these things at 35.

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Wasn't Jordan 35 when he won title #6?

It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.

[twyzted]

Okay keep reaching son.

The drop off is a combination of the pandemic and the BLM messaging. Nothing to do with Lebron

Lebron has 2 worst rated finals ever.
His best is 3 million lower than Jordans worst.
Edit: i looked at the wrong number. It closer to few hundred thousand but his best does not beat Jordans worst.
Lebron has had the best selling jersey for 5 seasons since coming into the league.
Kobe has 6 seasons in 1 decade as the best selling jersey.

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Finals_television_ratings

https://www.interbasket.net/jerseys/nba/top-selling/

Am i reaching? Numbers dont lie.

[Alize]

Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.

Lebron is the goat. Jordan couldnt do these things at 35.

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Wasn't Jordan 35 when he won title #6?

It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.

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[Edrees]

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

Real winners lose early.

Yeah, The Clippers were a great success this season since they didn't make it to the finals, but the Miami heat were total choke jobs for losing in the finals.

[otwok]

Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.

Wasn't Jordan 35 when he won title #6?

It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.

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What are you even talking about? In all four series if I am not mistaken there was a player who had a higher game score than Lebron. Jordan averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs when he was 35. He also didn't have the luxury of having another 20 ppg scorer on his team. None of this makes sense.

[Quinjo28]

For me lebron at highest no.2 lowest no.4 all time rank

[Alize]

Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.

It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.

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What are you even talking about? In all four series if I am not mistaken there was a player who had a higher game score than Lebron. Jordan averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs when he was 35. He also didn't have the luxury of having another 20 ppg scorer on his team. None of this makes sense.

MJ averaged 41.5 minutes per game in that playoffs, 32.4 points per game, meanwhile shooting 46.2% from the field and low rebounds at 5 per game and even lower assists per game at 3.5.

Lebron averaged 6 less minutes 36.3 minutes, 27.6 points per game, meanwhile has a fieldgoal percentage of 56%, 10 % more than Jordan, 10!, 37% from three point land ( MJ had poor 30.2%), and here comes the big big difference between the two as 35 year olds: 10.8 rebounds per game and 8.8 assists per game.

How delusional can you be to claim MJ performed nearly as well as Lebron?

[70sFan]

Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.

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What are you even talking about? In all four series if I am not mistaken there was a player who had a higher game score than Lebron. Jordan averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs when he was 35. He also didn't have the luxury of having another 20 ppg scorer on his team. None of this makes sense.

MJ averaged 41.5 minutes per game in that playoffs, 32.4 points per game, meanwhile shooting 46.2% from the field and low rebounds at 5 per game and even lower assists per game at 3.5.

Lebron averaged 6 less minutes 36.3 minutes, 27.6 points per game, meanwhile has a fieldgoal percentage of 56%, 10 % more than Jordan, 10!, 37% from three point land ( MJ had poor 30.2%), and here comes the big big difference between the two as 35 year olds: 10.8 rebounds per game and 8.8 assists per game.

How delusional can you be to claim MJ performed nearly as well as Lebron?

If you take minutes into consideration, it's fine to keep in mind that pace difference is also meaningfull:

27.6/10.8/8.8 with 4.0 tov in 36.3 mpg -> 37.6/14.6/11.9 with 5.4 tov PER100
32.4/5.1/3.5 with 2.2 tov in 41.5 mpg -> 44.5/7.0/4.8 with 2.9 tov PER100

I'd take James to be sure, but Jordan carried much larger scoring load and his turnover economy was GOAT-level.

[GhosDini]

Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.

Wasn't Jordan 35 when he won title #6?

It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.

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Lebron also had a 5 month layoff leading up to the playoffs lol. Im sure Jordan would have looked fresh as well. 35yr old Jordan played 82 games, MVP and 1st team defense, and went right into a grueling playoffs. And in the playoffs he didnt face Tyler Herro and Jimmy Butler. He faced the best Indiana Pacers team ever. Arguably the Jazz best team also.

[Alize]

So Michael was in season shape and Lebron was in offseason shape after 5 months without basketball.

No more excuses please, Lebron looked great before the shutdown.

Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.

It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.

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Lebron also had a 5 month layoff leading up to the playoffs lol. Im sure Jordan would have looked fresh as well. 35yr old Jordan played 82 games, MVP and 1st team defense, and went right into a grueling playoffs. And in the playoffs he didnt face Tyler Herro and Jimmy Butler. He faced the best Indiana Pacers team ever. Arguably the Jazz best team also.

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[ThePersianFreak]

To me the absolute peak of LeBron is higher than Jordan (Last 3 games against GSW in 2016 is the highest level of basketball from an individual that i've ever seen). That's because of LeBron's versatility on defense and the way he anchored the D and was the main rim protector for the Cavs. MJ had better defensive career and overall i put him ahead of LeBron defensively, but the ceiling of LeBron is higher defensively and that showed during those Finals. But 3-5 games is a very small sample size and overall i think Jordan had the higher peak (albeit very close to LeBron and Shaq) over the course of a single season. Jordan was a tad more consistent during his prime but LeBron's prime is soooooooo long. Overall i think their Peak/Prime is comparable but the fact that LeBron's prime is almost 14 years gives him the edge.
So, in a vacuume i think their colse to each other.
Then there's the individual and team accolades, Jordan is better here, 2 more rings while being the best player and 1 more regular season MVP. I don't value these type of accolades that high, but when you're comparing 2 players that are so close to each other, you can use these as tiebreakers.
Right now i have Jordan and LeBron as 1a and 1b. If LeBron has another 2 seasons of superstar play and wins another ring as the best player on his team, i can put him ahead of Jordan.

Of course these are all my opinions and im the kinda guy who values peak/prime more that longivity. That's why i have Shaq at number 7 on my list (Jordan, Bron, Kareem, Magic, Russell,Duncan, Shaq). Of course if you value longivity more, Kareem and Duncan have their cases. If you value defense and leadership more, Bill Russell has his case and ... .

[Alize]

To me the absolute peak of LeBron is higher than Jordan (Last 3 games against GSW in 2016 is the highest level of basketball from an individual that i've ever seen). That's because of LeBron's versatility on defense and the way he anchored the D and was the main rim protector for the Cavs. MJ had better defensive career and overall i put him ahead of LeBron defensively, but the ceiling of LeBron is higher defensively and that showed during those Finals. But 3-5 games is a very small sample size and overall i think Jordan had the higher peak (albeit very close to LeBron and Shaq) over the course of a single season. Jordan was a tad more consistent during his prime but LeBron's prime is soooooooo long. Overall i think their Peak/Prime is comparable but the fact that LeBron's prime is almost 14 years gives him the edge.
So, in a vacuume i think their colse to each other.
Then there's the individual and team accolades, Jordan is better here, 2 more rings while being the best player and 1 more regular season MVP. I don't value these type of accolades that high, but when you're comparing 2 players that are so close to each other, you can use these as tiebreakers.
Right now i have Jordan and LeBron as 1a and 1b. If LeBron has another 2 seasons of superstar play and wins another ring as the best player on his team, i can put him ahead of Jordan.

Of course these are all my opinions and im the kinda guy who values peak/prime more that longivity. That's why i have Shaq at number 7 on my list (Jordan, Bron, Kareem, Magic, Russell,Duncan, Shaq). Of course if you value longivity more, Kareem and Duncan have their cases. If you value defense and leadership more, Bill Russell has his case and ... .

Great read. I also place them both at the top.

[bmurph128]

The thing Lebron fans will slowly have to come to terms with is the fact that this is not a real championship. Sure, it will be called one and recognized as such by the media and NBA. But whenever this goat conversation comes up people arent going to respect this title at least the way they do others.

People say there are no asterisks. People also say not all titles are equal. In the grand scheme of things this just might be the lowest quality championship in NBA history.

That's fine. What LeBron can hang his hat on is the fact that we obliterated the West on a neutral court when he and the Lakers would have had home court advantage

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[Paddy Brosso]

Imo Jordan is still the Goat. Then I have 2 players: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and LeBron James. Those 3 are clearly above the rest.

IF LeBron keeps on playing the way he does for say 2 or 3 more seasons, wins another Ring, wins another MVP, becomes the all-time leading scorer, etc. then he will pass both Kareem and Jordan.

[Pg81]

What are you even talking about? In all four series if I am not mistaken there was a player who had a higher game score than Lebron. Jordan averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs when he was 35. He also didn't have the luxury of having another 20 ppg scorer on his team. None of this makes sense.

MJ averaged 41.5 minutes per game in that playoffs, 32.4 points per game, meanwhile shooting 46.2% from the field and low rebounds at 5 per game and even lower assists per game at 3.5.

Lebron averaged 6 less minutes 36.3 minutes, 27.6 points per game, meanwhile has a fieldgoal percentage of 56%, 10 % more than Jordan, 10!, 37% from three point land ( MJ had poor 30.2%), and here comes the big big difference between the two as 35 year olds: 10.8 rebounds per game and 8.8 assists per game.

How delusional can you be to claim MJ performed nearly as well as Lebron?

If you take minutes into consideration, it's fine to keep in mind that pace difference is also meaningfull:

27.6/10.8/8.8 with 4.0 tov in 36.3 mpg -> 37.6/14.6/11.9 with 5.4 tov PER100
32.4/5.1/3.5 with 2.2 tov in 41.5 mpg -> 44.5/7.0/4.8 with 2.9 tov PER100

I'd take James to be sure, but Jordan carried much larger scoring load and his turnover economy was GOAT-level.

LeBron was the primary ball handler for his team, MJ was not so not a good comparison.

[70sFan]

MJ averaged 41.5 minutes per game in that playoffs, 32.4 points per game, meanwhile shooting 46.2% from the field and low rebounds at 5 per game and even lower assists per game at 3.5.

Lebron averaged 6 less minutes 36.3 minutes, 27.6 points per game, meanwhile has a fieldgoal percentage of 56%, 10 % more than Jordan, 10!, 37% from three point land ( MJ had poor 30.2%), and here comes the big big difference between the two as 35 year olds: 10.8 rebounds per game and 8.8 assists per game.

How delusional can you be to claim MJ performed nearly as well as Lebron?

If you take minutes into consideration, it's fine to keep in mind that pace difference is also meaningfull:

27.6/10.8/8.8 with 4.0 tov in 36.3 mpg -> 37.6/14.6/11.9 with 5.4 tov PER100
32.4/5.1/3.5 with 2.2 tov in 41.5 mpg -> 44.5/7.0/4.8 with 2.9 tov PER100

I'd take James to be sure, but Jordan carried much larger scoring load and his turnover economy was GOAT-level.

LeBron was the primary ball handler for his team, MJ was not so not a good comparison.

Of course, but that's why comparing raw apg numbers is also unfair. They had different roles on their teams.

[Pg81]

If you take minutes into consideration, it's fine to keep in mind that pace difference is also meaningfull:

27.6/10.8/8.8 with 4.0 tov in 36.3 mpg -> 37.6/14.6/11.9 with 5.4 tov PER100
32.4/5.1/3.5 with 2.2 tov in 41.5 mpg -> 44.5/7.0/4.8 with 2.9 tov PER100

I'd take James to be sure, but Jordan carried much larger scoring load and his turnover economy was GOAT-level.

LeBron was the primary ball handler for his team, MJ was not so not a good comparison.

Of course, but that's why comparing raw apg numbers is also unfair. They had different roles on their teams.

Pace or possession adjusted is not any better either doubly true when you compare two players from eras which are over 20 years apart. Pace does not affect superstars much in terms of scoring, it affects role players much more.
Jordan is a better scorer than LeBron I doubt anyone apart from some LeBron stans dispute that. LeBron provides more in other areas than MJ though.