Cowherd: MJ needed Pippen, LeBron James just needs a ball

[ash_k]

Its always funny yet weird when bron stans try and marginalize Wade/Bosh stating 'well 2011 was Wade's only prime year in retort to wht he didn't capture more success. However they leave out the important that when he did have ultra prime Wade it wasn't he nor the cast that lost Miami the finals but his own undoing by choking (btw Wade averaged just under 24ppg 5 5 in the playoffs/finals in 2012, not shabby for a 'washed up 2nd option' & Wade) .

Those are the numbers in 2012 in the Finals:

[YogurtProducer]

Lol what? Are you really saying that Bosh and Wade are peanuts? Nobody got excited for Pippen and Grant bro lol. A healthy Bosh + Wade team took Heat to ECSF in 2015-16 season, without Lebron. That's 31 year old Bosh and 33 year old Wade, yeah peanuts!

How is it not an argument? with MJ, his team turned into a dynasty team. I can't even make a case for Lebron, because Lebron has never reached that height. The Bad Boys Pistons won 2, LeBron's Heat won 2, Steph and KD won 2. MJ lead the Bulls to 3-peat not once, but twice. Having MJ allowed that team to be that dominant. With Lebron you may win not 1...not 2 ... not 3... not 4... not 5... but you probably win 2 out of 4 or 5 tries despite having other 2 Top 10 players on your team. You're not likely to 3-peat, or build a dynasty (nope never happened). From winning perspective, they're not even in the same class. I don't think you've watched MJ, which is fine, Lebron is the GOAT in your lifetime. It's hard to compare players that you never seen play.

That Miami team won 37 games the year prior AND, that Miami team also was barely even reminiscent of that Lebron team.

Bosh played 53 games. And after that the main guys in minutes per game were Dragic, Deng, Joe Johnson (24 games), Wade, Whiteside, Winslow, Johnson, Green.

So... like none of those guys were even on those Heat teams. Add Lebron to that roster and they win 65 games probably because a Dragic/Wade/Lebron/Bosh/Whiteside team would blow the 2010-2014 big 3 Heat out of the **** water.

So again, Bulls without MJ + Kukoc were good. Heat/Lakers/Cavs without Lebron were always trash, peaking at a 37 win season when Lebron left the Heat AND his two co-stars stuck around AND signed Dragic/Deng.

It’s just not even a conversation man. You’re wrong here and trying to use future seasons as an argument that is pro MJ just doesn’t work.

Trying to use “he never 3-peated” is a ridiculous argument because again, you completely ignore team composition and the opponents.

If KD doesn’t join the Warriors it’s 100% possible LBJ wins 4 straight rings. If MJ had to face the Utah Jazz but they also had Charles Barkley guess what.. MJ is probably 4-2 in the finals.

But **** Lebron for not beating a 73 win team who added a legitimate MVP candidate in his prime, right? MJ WOULD NEVER.

Not even considering that MJ straight up retired for 2 years. That should reflect negatively on MJ as that’s two years he was a potential player that he never played. If he doesn’t retire who knows, maybe they lose still that year and suddenly this illusion of MJ is the indisputable goat isn’t as wildly acclaimed

Edit: just had to LOL at Lebron never being on a Dynasty. Taking 2 straight teams to 4 straight finals and getting 4 rings is a **** dynasty.

Bosh played 44 games the year after. Wade 62. Traded for dragic at the trade deadline. Then next year won 47 games.

But ofcourse the bulls just kept the same guys right?
93 finals team
cartwright, grant, pippen, jordan, bj, paxson and scott williams. 7 man rotation
94 playoff rotation
Cartwright, grant, pippen, myers, bj, kukoc, kerr, longley, scott williams.
Basicly added deepth to make up for jordan. Plus they were always a very good defensive team.
95 season lost grant but added will perdue and ron harper who had up until that season been a 20ppg guy. But were 34-31 until Jordan arrived.
Then traded perdue in straight swap for rodman and we know what happened.
So in short year after lbj heat got injured added dragic late.
Bulls added depth also pippen had his best season, bj also.
But both of those team didnt do much after lbj or mj.

But i have a question for adv stat guys. How did ron harper in 91 who avg 19.6 ppg be -0.8 ows? Is because of .39% fg%?

The Heat were winning at the same rate with Bosh in or out of the lineup. 19-25 when Bosh played that season. They were not nearly as good as those 1994 Bulls. In what world is this even a debate? Sheesh anything to make MJ look better

Also it wasn’t just Dragic.. it was Dragic, Deng, and Whiteside appeared.

It’s crazy because I’m not even a Lebron fan but the slander against his ridiculous

[twyzted]

That Miami team won 37 games the year prior AND, that Miami team also was barely even reminiscent of that Lebron team.

Bosh played 53 games. And after that the main guys in minutes per game were Dragic, Deng, Joe Johnson (24 games), Wade, Whiteside, Winslow, Johnson, Green.

So... like none of those guys were even on those Heat teams. Add Lebron to that roster and they win 65 games probably because a Dragic/Wade/Lebron/Bosh/Whiteside team would blow the 2010-2014 big 3 Heat out of the **** water.

So again, Bulls without MJ + Kukoc were good. Heat/Lakers/Cavs without Lebron were always trash, peaking at a 37 win season when Lebron left the Heat AND his two co-stars stuck around AND signed Dragic/Deng.

It’s just not even a conversation man. You’re wrong here and trying to use future seasons as an argument that is pro MJ just doesn’t work.

Trying to use “he never 3-peated” is a ridiculous argument because again, you completely ignore team composition and the opponents.

If KD doesn’t join the Warriors it’s 100% possible LBJ wins 4 straight rings. If MJ had to face the Utah Jazz but they also had Charles Barkley guess what.. MJ is probably 4-2 in the finals.

But **** Lebron for not beating a 73 win team who added a legitimate MVP candidate in his prime, right? MJ WOULD NEVER.

Not even considering that MJ straight up retired for 2 years. That should reflect negatively on MJ as that’s two years he was a potential player that he never played. If he doesn’t retire who knows, maybe they lose still that year and suddenly this illusion of MJ is the indisputable goat isn’t as wildly acclaimed

Edit: just had to LOL at Lebron never being on a Dynasty. Taking 2 straight teams to 4 straight finals and getting 4 rings is a **** dynasty.

Bosh played 44 games the year after. Wade 62. Traded for dragic at the trade deadline. Then next year won 47 games.

But ofcourse the bulls just kept the same guys right?
93 finals team
cartwright, grant, pippen, jordan, bj, paxson and scott williams. 7 man rotation
94 playoff rotation
Cartwright, grant, pippen, myers, bj, kukoc, kerr, longley, scott williams.
Basicly added deepth to make up for jordan. Plus they were always a very good defensive team.
95 season lost grant but added will perdue and ron harper who had up until that season been a 20ppg guy. But were 34-31 until Jordan arrived.
Then traded perdue in straight swap for rodman and we know what happened.
So in short year after lbj heat got injured added dragic late.
Bulls added depth also pippen had his best season, bj also.
But both of those team didnt do much after lbj or mj.

But i have a question for adv stat guys. How did ron harper in 91 who avg 19.6 ppg be -0.8 ows? Is because of .39% fg%?

The Heat were winning at the same rate with Bosh in or out of the lineup. 19-25 when Bosh played that season. They were not nearly as good as those 1994 Bulls. In what world is this even a debate? Sheesh anything to make MJ look better

Also it wasn’t just Dragic.. it was Dragic, Deng, and Whiteside appeared.

It’s crazy because I’m not even a Lebron fan but the slander against his ridiculous

You mentioned the players the heat added in the post i replied to, but you failed to mention that dragic was traded for at the trade deadline, you imply that dragic was added before the season. I just corrected you on that. You mention all the players added by the heat but non who the bulls added. But then you get all defensive and calls me a jordan stan and denies that you are even a fan of lebron.

The heat was 23-30 and traded for dragic close out the season 14-15 then next year they go 48-34 im pretty sure that if the heat wouldve added dragic earlier the make the playoffs they missed the playoffs by 1 game.

You think pippen missing 20 games grant missing 38 that the bulls would be the same team?

I never slandered anything about lebron one bit.
And kukoc also joined before 93/94 season where the bulls added 4 players to a rotation where they had scott williams as a 6th man and replaced him with kukoc as a 6th.

Also a good team coached by a great coach with great defence tend to do well.
Just like spurs did with lamarcus aldridge.

[YogurtProducer]

Bosh played 44 games the year after. Wade 62. Traded for dragic at the trade deadline. Then next year won 47 games.

But ofcourse the bulls just kept the same guys right?
93 finals team
cartwright, grant, pippen, jordan, bj, paxson and scott williams. 7 man rotation
94 playoff rotation
Cartwright, grant, pippen, myers, bj, kukoc, kerr, longley, scott williams.
Basicly added deepth to make up for jordan. Plus they were always a very good defensive team.
95 season lost grant but added will perdue and ron harper who had up until that season been a 20ppg guy. But were 34-31 until Jordan arrived.
Then traded perdue in straight swap for rodman and we know what happened.
So in short year after lbj heat got injured added dragic late.
Bulls added depth also pippen had his best season, bj also.
But both of those team didnt do much after lbj or mj.

But i have a question for adv stat guys. How did ron harper in 91 who avg 19.6 ppg be -0.8 ows? Is because of .39% fg%?

The Heat were winning at the same rate with Bosh in or out of the lineup. 19-25 when Bosh played that season. They were not nearly as good as those 1994 Bulls. In what world is this even a debate? Sheesh anything to make MJ look better

Also it wasn’t just Dragic.. it was Dragic, Deng, and Whiteside appeared.

It’s crazy because I’m not even a Lebron fan but the slander against his ridiculous

You mentioned the players the heat added in the post i replied to, but you failed to mention that dragic was traded for at the trade deadline, you imply that dragic was added before the season. I just corrected you on that. You mention all the players added by the heat but non who the bulls added. But then you get all defensive and calls me a jordan stan and denies that you are even a fan of lebron.

The heat was 23-30 and traded for dragic close out the season 14-15 then next year they go 48-34 im pretty sure that if the heat wouldve added dragic earlier the make the playoffs they missed the playoffs by 1 game.

You think pippen missing 20 games grant missing 38 that the bulls would be the same team?

I never slandered anything about lebron one bit.
And kukoc also joined before 93/94 season where the bulls added 4 players to a rotation where they had scott williams as a 6th man and replaced him with kukoc as a 6th.

Also a good team coached by a great coach with great defence tend to do well.
Just like spurs did with lamarcus aldridge.

Again, the Heat added players and got worse, missed the playoffs, and didn’t rebound until two years later when the team was a barely reminiscent of its former self. Dragic may have joined later.. but it doesn’t change the fact that they still added Deng, and has both Bosh and Wade all year and still sucked.

The bulls add a couple players and are way more similar
To their MJ squads and still are a legit contender.

Something about these two situations is very, very different.

[Magic Is Magic]

Its always funny yet weird when bron stans try and marginalize Wade/Bosh stating 'well 2011 was Wade's only prime year in retort to wht he didn't capture more success. However they leave out the important that when he did have ultra prime Wade it wasn't he nor the cast that lost Miami the finals but his own undoing by choking (btw Wade averaged just under 24ppg 5 5 in the playoffs/finals in 2012, not shabby for a 'washed up 2nd option' & Wade) .

LeBron James has won under 3 different head coaches in three different cities with three different #2 options and you're finding ways to diminish him. Think about that.

[twyzted]

The Heat were winning at the same rate with Bosh in or out of the lineup. 19-25 when Bosh played that season. They were not nearly as good as those 1994 Bulls. In what world is this even a debate? Sheesh anything to make MJ look better

Also it wasn’t just Dragic.. it was Dragic, Deng, and Whiteside appeared.

It’s crazy because I’m not even a Lebron fan but the slander against his ridiculous

You mentioned the players the heat added in the post i replied to, but you failed to mention that dragic was traded for at the trade deadline, you imply that dragic was added before the season. I just corrected you on that. You mention all the players added by the heat but non who the bulls added. But then you get all defensive and calls me a jordan stan and denies that you are even a fan of lebron.

The heat was 23-30 and traded for dragic close out the season 14-15 then next year they go 48-34 im pretty sure that if the heat wouldve added dragic earlier the make the playoffs they missed the playoffs by 1 game.

You think pippen missing 20 games grant missing 38 that the bulls would be the same team?

I never slandered anything about lebron one bit.
And kukoc also joined before 93/94 season where the bulls added 4 players to a rotation where they had scott williams as a 6th man and replaced him with kukoc as a 6th.

Also a good team coached by a great coach with great defence tend to do well.
Just like spurs did with lamarcus aldridge.

Again, the Heat added players and got worse, missed the playoffs, and didn’t rebound until two years later when the team was a barely reminiscent of its former self. Dragic may have joined later.. but it doesn’t change the fact that they still added Deng, and has both Bosh and Wade all year and still sucked.

The bulls add a couple players and are way more similar
To their MJ squads and still are a legit contender.

Something about these two situations is very, very different.

Bulls added 4 players in the off season of 93.
They had system which worked, pippen was very good at playing it. They were great defensive team. They did great. Making the ecsf are contending ok.

Bosh missed 38 games wade 20. Traded for dragic and a year later were back contending.
Lbj missed 16 games and did not make the playoffs.

[jc23]

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stans:

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[Sign5]

Its always funny yet weird when bron stans try and marginalize Wade/Bosh stating 'well 2011 was Wade's only prime year in retort to wht he didn't capture more success. However they leave out the important that when he did have ultra prime Wade it wasn't he nor the cast that lost Miami the finals but his own undoing by choking (btw Wade averaged just under 24ppg 5 5 in the playoffs/finals in 2012, not shabby for a 'washed up 2nd option' & Wade) .

LeBron James has won under 3 different head coaches in three different cities with three different #2 options and you're finding ways to diminish him. Think about that.

and completely irrelevant to what I stated.

[Warriorfan]

Lebron had the ball last season and missed the playoffs and .500 by 12 games.

[Alize]

?

Lebron had the ball last season and missed the playoffs and .500 by 12 games who he passes it to matters

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

[trueballer7]

Its always funny yet weird when bron stans try and marginalize Wade/Bosh stating 'well 2011 was Wade's only prime year in retort to wht he didn't capture more success. However they leave out the important that when he did have ultra prime Wade it wasn't he nor the cast that lost Miami the finals but his own undoing by choking (btw Wade averaged just under 24ppg 5 5 in the playoffs/finals in 2012, not shabby for a 'washed up 2nd option' & Wade) .

LeBron James has won under 3 different head coaches in three different cities with three different #2 options and you're finding ways to diminish him. Think about that.

None of which was the team that drafted him. 1 Final in 7 years, less than what Pat Ewing or Reggie Miller with their respective teams, same as Allen Iverson etc etc and the NBA didnt change any travelling rules for them.
Kawhi has won 2 already with two different coaches in two different teams at a much younger age.
Think about those things

[Alize]

2 not 3, third one is not looking good after 2020 playoffs.

Its always funny yet weird when bron stans try and marginalize Wade/Bosh stating 'well 2011 was Wade's only prime year in retort to wht he didn't capture more success. However they leave out the important that when he did have ultra prime Wade it wasn't he nor the cast that lost Miami the finals but his own undoing by choking (btw Wade averaged just under 24ppg 5 5 in the playoffs/finals in 2012, not shabby for a 'washed up 2nd option' & Wade) .

LeBron James has won under 3 different head coaches in three different cities with three different #2 options and you're finding ways to diminish him. Think about that.

None of which was the team that drafted him. 1 Final in 7 years, less than what Pat Ewing or Reggie Miller with their respective teams, same as Allen Iverson etc etc and the NBA didnt change any travelling rules for them.
Kawhi has won 2 already with two different coaches in two different teams at a much younger age.
Think about those things

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

[trueballer7]

The Heat were winning at the same rate with Bosh in or out of the lineup. 19-25 when Bosh played that season. They were not nearly as good as those 1994 Bulls. In what world is this even a debate? Sheesh anything to make MJ look better

Also it wasn’t just Dragic.. it was Dragic, Deng, and Whiteside appeared.

It’s crazy because I’m not even a Lebron fan but the slander against his ridiculous

You mentioned the players the heat added in the post i replied to, but you failed to mention that dragic was traded for at the trade deadline, you imply that dragic was added before the season. I just corrected you on that. You mention all the players added by the heat but non who the bulls added. But then you get all defensive and calls me a jordan stan and denies that you are even a fan of lebron.

The heat was 23-30 and traded for dragic close out the season 14-15 then next year they go 48-34 im pretty sure that if the heat wouldve added dragic earlier the make the playoffs they missed the playoffs by 1 game.

You think pippen missing 20 games grant missing 38 that the bulls would be the same team?

I never slandered anything about lebron one bit.
And kukoc also joined before 93/94 season where the bulls added 4 players to a rotation where they had scott williams as a 6th man and replaced him with kukoc as a 6th.

Also a good team coached by a great coach with great defence tend to do well.
Just like spurs did with lamarcus aldridge.

Again, the Heat added players and got worse, missed the playoffs, and didn’t rebound until two years later when the team was a barely reminiscent of its former self. Dragic may have joined later.. but it doesn’t change the fact that they still added Deng, and has both Bosh and Wade all year and still sucked.

The bulls add a couple players and are way more similar
To their MJ squads and still are a legit contender.

Something about these two situations is very, very different.

Yeah. One was led by a flawless player that could excel playing within the best system for his teamates who he used to push everyday in practice for years upon years, the other was led by 61% of points by lay ups.

[YogurtProducer]

You mentioned the players the heat added in the post i replied to, but you failed to mention that dragic was traded for at the trade deadline, you imply that dragic was added before the season. I just corrected you on that. You mention all the players added by the heat but non who the bulls added. But then you get all defensive and calls me a jordan stan and denies that you are even a fan of lebron.

The heat was 23-30 and traded for dragic close out the season 14-15 then next year they go 48-34 im pretty sure that if the heat wouldve added dragic earlier the make the playoffs they missed the playoffs by 1 game.

You think pippen missing 20 games grant missing 38 that the bulls would be the same team?

I never slandered anything about lebron one bit.
And kukoc also joined before 93/94 season where the bulls added 4 players to a rotation where they had scott williams as a 6th man and replaced him with kukoc as a 6th.

Also a good team coached by a great coach with great defence tend to do well.
Just like spurs did with lamarcus aldridge.

Again, the Heat added players and got worse, missed the playoffs, and didn’t rebound until two years later when the team was a barely reminiscent of its former self. Dragic may have joined later.. but it doesn’t change the fact that they still added Deng, and has both Bosh and Wade all year and still sucked.

The bulls add a couple players and are way more similar
To their MJ squads and still are a legit contender.

Something about these two situations is very, very different.

Yeah. One was led by a flawless player that could excel playing within the best system for his teamates who he used to push everyday in practice for years upon years, the other was led by 61% of points by lay ups.

[Lalouie]

last i saw lebron needed more than just the ball when he was at cleveland. he had to go join a cadre of stars and import a bunch of others. that process of gathering stars was validated when he went to the lakers,,,,AND THEY SUCKED. with him the lakers were headed for a 40win season, 7 below #8. without him the lakers were a 35win team,,,thats a 5win difference and STILL far short of 47wins. so he had to manuever to get davis.

yes its true, mj needed pippen.
no it's not true, lebron didn't need just the ball

[spikeslovechild]

Lebron had the ball last season and missed the playoffs and .500 by 12 games.

Lebron is a system player. In order for Lebrons system to work he has to be around shooters in particular 3PT shooting.

[tosi]

Wait, who was Phil Jackson before MJ? Give me a break.

Who was Phil Jackson before Michael Jordan?

An NBA Champion

[Lalouie]

Wait, who was Phil Jackson before MJ? Give me a break.

Who was Phil Jackson before Michael Jordan?

An NBA Champion

he was a ring winner with the best "TEAM" that ever was

he did for mj what spo and riley did for lebron

[Lalouie]

?

Lebron had the ball last season and missed the playoffs and .500 by 12 games who he passes it to matters

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

well to be clear, lebron lakers were headed for a 40win season,,,still 8 games below the #8 clippers(48wins). they were -11 games total as a team. so there was a 3win difference with and without lebron. btw the lakers were 35wins the season before lebron - thats a pretty apparent cause and effect

[Lukeem]

Questions for the Jordan stans: if Jordan didn’t join and make a super team for his second three peat And was stuck at 3 rings despite playing at the exact same level how is he viewed. Also why do you think lebron proving he can win in many different scenarios makes him a worse player (why is this used a deterrent to his greatness?) I understand the dislike behind it because that is one of the biggest reasons I dislike him as a player that and flipping/ embellishment / whining / self proclamations.

Questions for lebron stans: if Jordan didn’t walk away for a year a half how do you think him and bulls would have faired in those two years ? Would this change the conversation - how?


Question for both while a lot of you are on the topic of quality of help and level of competition, do either lebron or Jordan have anything that compares to this:


1963-64 76ers win just 34 games
Lead by
Hal Greer 27
Red Kerr 31
Chet Walker 23

1967 76ers are considered one of the best teams of all time win an nba championship
Led by
wilt
Chet Walker
Hal Greer

Beating the Celtics in 5 with wilt averaging 22pts 32 rbs and 10asts for the series

Celtics featured
Bill Russell
Kc Jones
Sam Jones
John Havlicek
Bailey Howell (made his 6th all star team that year)
Don Nelson
Wayne embry ....