All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA Second Team

[70sFan]

Here is the link to the project thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1998780

Pick the second team from 1995/96 to 1999/00 season. Explain all your choices at least in short description.

Official 1996-00 All-NBA First Team

G: 1995/96 Penny Hardaway
G: 1995/96 Michael Jordan
F: 1997/98 Karl Malone
F: 1998/99 Tim Duncan
C: 1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal

Rules:

1. Include both RS and playoffs (it's not RS award like in real life).

2. You can pick only one season per player - for example, you can't use 2016 and 2018 James in different teams.

3. Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player. I think that otherwise, we'll have players with multiple great seaosns (like James or Kareem for example) unfairly downgraded.

4. We vote in a G/G/F/F/C system.

If you want to participate, just let me know. I'm trying to get consistent list of voters.

Spoiler:

I'm in.

Sounds fun. I'm in.

I'm in.

I'm in lol.

yes

I would love to participate

Sure

Interesting I'm in

I wanna play

I'm down but my participation won't be super consistent like usual, sorry for that.

I'm in.

I can participate, but not reliably

[mitchco]

Payton should be first team over Penny.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

1996 Payton
1997 Stockton
1996 Pippen
2000 Garnett
1996 Robinson

Biggest question marks for me:
on guard, if to consider Reggie or even Kobe instead of Stockton
on center, between Olajuwon 96 and Robinson. In 97 I remember a big decline in Akeem
No real issue at forward, I see no argument for Hill over Garnett

[mailmp]

I do not really consider Kobe here, but 1997 Tim Hardaway and 1999 Kidd deserve a shout. Kidd in particular grades as reasonably similar to his peak. Reggie though is interesting; he will make my third team, but will try to figure out if he deserves second team.

Also I think Mourning is my second team pick; deserved MVP in 1999. You should give him a glance.

[Dutchball97]

Guard: John Stockton, 1996/97 - I voted him first team over Penny and even amidst harsh critiques of Stockton by a pair of brandnew accounts I'm sticking with my vote.

Guard: Gary Payton, 1995/96 - I did consider Reggie Miller here as I think his 2000 play-off run exceeds any of Payton's play-off performances but the regular season gap was too big to justify it for me.

Forward: Scottie Pippen, 1995/96 - Nearly as good as Duncan/Malone and miles ahead of anyone else here in my opinion.

Forward: Kevin Garnett, 1999/00 - Like I said in the first team thread, I'm not a big fan of the forward pool in this era. KG, Barkley and Hill all had strong regular seasons and were just as good in the play-offs, only that none of them really got anywhere in the play-offs in their respective best seasons in this period. Kemp was also an option but his deeper play-off run doesn't offset the fact that he just wasn't the same caliber of player as KG, Barkley or Hill. I prefer KG's season over Barkley and Hill but only slightly.

Center: David Robinson, 1995/96 - Almost went with 97 Hakeem because of his play-offs but like with Payton and Reggie, the gap between the regular seasons is significantly bigger than the difference in play-off performance.

[Odinn21]

C: 1996 David Robinson
I think Olajuwon's postseason run in 1997 makes a case for him but not enough to deny the Admiral.

F: 1997 Grant Hill
A monster season all around. Surprised to see this is the vote he got after 4 F votes.

F: 1996 Scottie Pippen
An interesting thing about '96 Pippen; '96 playoffs was his worst scoring efficiency in Chicago and 16.8 ppg was his lowest scoring production since his sophomore season. Yet, Pippen ended up with his best obpm for a playoffs run. 1995-96 regular season was his career high obpm. Surely, what he puts him in there is the defense he's known for.

G: 2000 Gary Payton
My 1st team selection.

G: 1997 John Stockton
I had a hard time between him and Kidd. Felt like Stockton's efficiency is too hard to argue against for Kidd. Other than that, Kidd takes it but that was a massive difference maker.

[mailmp]

even amidst harsh critiques of Stockton by a pair of brandnew accounts

If it took a “brand new account” to tell you to look at more than basketball reference, then this community kind-of let you down, because nothing I said should have been remotely unfamiliar.

Anyway:

Centre: 1999 Alonzo Mourning
Should have won MVP. Mimicked peak Ewing in the regular season before narrowly getting eliminated by Ewing in the postseason. No real issue with Robinson or Hakeem at this spot either, but will defer to the one with a strong claim to player of the year.

Forwards: 2000 Kevin Garnett and 1996 Scottie Pippen
Garnett was on balance the second best player of 2000 after Shaq. Pippen was obviously the second best player of a 72-win team and was just a year removed from his own peak season. More impressed by both of these performances than by Grant Hill’s, of whom I have always had some skepticism. Rasheed versus Kemp (versus Carter?) will be an interesting debate for the final third team forward spot, although right now I generally lean toward Kemp.

Guards: 1998/2000 Gary Payton and 1999 Jason Kidd EDIT: 1998/2000 Reggie Miller
Reggie simply not the same impact in the regular season after 1994/95 (although I am sure some will try to argue Stockton over him and/or Drexler when we get to the next batch, I would hope his second-team spot there is secure). Playoff run in 2000 is impressive but increasingly removed from said peak. 1997 Tim Hardaway also a worthy mention, but more skeptical of his year than Kidd’s, which would soon be followed by similarly impactful years on the Nets. Payton an easy choice here because of his high level peak play on both ends in the postseason and his widely recognised status at his peak as a borderline top five player in the league during the regular season. EDIT: Doc MJ was convincing enough for me to downgrade Kidd below Reggie, even if he was more removed from his peak than I would like. Mookie may also get some consideration from me for third team with Kidd looking a bit more problematic.

[HeartBreakKid]

G: 1997 John Stockton

G: 2000 Reggie Miller - I suppose I give it the 2000 version because his playoff numbers are the pretties though I'm not really convinced he was any better than his younger seasons. Miller vs Kidd/Payton is fun, but I really think prime Miller which is what 96-2000 is (30-34 more or less) is just truly a god like offensive player. When you think about his efficiency during an era when most guys weren't that good at the 3 ball, the fact he was the #1 option on a team without volume scorers, his numbers going up in the post season, and he is a 60 TS% shooter on top of that kind of opens your eyes to how far ahead he really is. There are two hypothetical I try to think of when I realize how good Reggie is

1) If he played with a coach that allowed him to shoot more 3s, not that he needed it because his offensive impact was still in tact - but his numbers would look a lot sexier

2) More importantly, what if he played with another volume scorer? He was a 25 60 TS% type of guy in the post season when teams were game planning against him....imagine he had Olajuwon, O'Neal...Lebron...even Jordan himself. That's basically the perfect #2 scoring option. I think that might be even better than the juggernaut esque defense that Kidd would give you.

F: 2000 Kevin Garnett

F: 1997 Scottie Pippen - Grant's scoring ability never translated that well into the post season, if he has Michael Jordan on his team maybe life is a bit easier but that relegates his scoring ability to more of a #2 option, which he is better than Pippen but not tremendously so. I think the defensive edge is really big though, Grant was a good defender most years than not but I always thought Scottie was on another level on that end. I go with 97 because his numbers are just a bit better than 96 and he's not old yet.

C: 1997 Hakeem Olajuwon - I feel like with Olajuwon people look at his career as just 93-95 and everything else is pretty much forgotten or may as well not exist (occasionally even his sophomore year finals run can be an after thought). I suppose there is no amazing story attached to any years and his level of play obviously isn't the same, but....aren't his advantages over Robinson more or less the same? The defensive gap has widen, but in terms of utility Hakeem still gives you legitimate scoring albeit it is scaled back more to a very impressive #2 option (22 ppg on 62 TS% in a 16 game post season is incredible for the 90s). David's scoring still drops off a lot, making his only real advantage his superior defense - which I think the gap on defense is bigger than people think, but Hakeem seems more reliable overall. Not a sexy pick but feels like the right one to me.

[Dutchball97]

even amidst harsh critiques of Stockton by a pair of brandnew accounts

If it took a “brand new account” to tell you to look at more than basketball reference, then this community kind-of let you down, because nothing I said should have been remotely unfamiliar.

This was more of a "I'm not really taking you seriously, so stop bothering me" instead of a "Please keep talking to me". Keep that in mind next time you feel the urge to quote me about John Stockton for the 10th time.

[70sFan]

My votes:

G: 1996/97 John Stockton
G: 1999/00 Reggie Miller
F: 1995/96 Scottie Pippen
F: 1999/00 Kevin Garnett
C: 1995/96 David Robinson

John Stockton - as I said earlier, I don't see any reason to believe that Payton was significantly better than Stockton. John was more portable and more scalable offensive player with decent defensive impact as well. It's very close and up to preferences though and Payton is a lock 3rd team member to me.

Reggie Miller - I thought about it and almost went with Payton, but Miller was such a monster offensively that I couldn't ignore that. A lot of people think about him as worse-defending Klay Thompson but in reality, he was one of the best postseason scorers ever and an all-time great offensive anchor who also gives you limitless portability. I take this over elite, but not dominant Payton two-way impact.

Scottie Pippen - it was a tough choice between him and Hill, but I decided to go with better defender who proved himself to be at least comparable 1st option before. Why 1996 over 1997? Because he was identical in RS and in playoffs, he did everything better other than scoring and I'm not high on Pippen's scoring. I prefer more well-rounded version because his lack of scoring was likely more related to different matchups than the real difference in scoring ability.

Kevin Garnett - I wanted to give Kemp the edge, but KG was much smarter offensive and defensive player even at that point of his career. He was extremely versatile defender who gave you a lot of positive things on offense end as well. Worse scorer and first option than Kemp, but it's not like Kemp was ideal at that role either.

I considered 1996 Rodman and 1996 Barkley as well, but Barkley was clear negative defensively at this point and Rodman wasn't better defensively than KG in my opinion.

David Robinson - surprisingly, another tough choice. I thought about older Hakeem, but I'm not high on his defensive impact at this point and he got significantly weaker on the board as well. I thought about Mourning as well, but I don't think he was better than prime Admiral - both offensively and defensively.

Quite a strong era, given that one of Hakeem/Mourning/Mutombo/Ewing won't make it.

[70sFan]

Votes so far:

Guards

John Stockton 5
Gary Payton 4
Reggie Miller 2
Jason Kidd 1

Forwards

Scottie Pippen 6
Kevin Garnett 5
Grant Hill 1

Centers

David Robinson 4
Alonzo Mourning 1
Hakeem Olajuwon 1

[mailmp]

even amidst harsh critiques of Stockton by a pair of brandnew accounts

If it took a “brand new account” to tell you to look at more than basketball reference, then this community kind-of let you down, because nothing I said should have been remotely unfamiliar.

This was more of a "I'm not really taking you seriously, so stop bothering me" instead of a "Please keep talking to me". Keep that in mind next time you feel the urge to quote me about John Stockton for the 10th time.

Ah yes, the best way to develop basketball understanding is to stick your fingers in your ears whenever someone directs your to better data than basketball-reference. Again, condolences that a “veteran” has not ever bothered to give you this talk, but maybe they just grasped that you had no inclination to try anything even slightly deeper.

Also, as a more general comment, if people are going to continually point to scalability/portability as reasons one player is “better”, I would think they would be giving weight to how Taylor himself assesses these seasons.

[HeartBreakKid]

You can really see the chasm of talent at centers between 96-2000 and the 2001-2005 All NBA Teams. Shaq's competition got mega old.

[70sFan]

Also, as a more general comment, if people are going to continually point to scalability/portability as reasons one player is “better”, I would think they would be giving weight to how Taylor himself assesses these seasons.

Why?

[Dutchball97]

If it took a “brand new account” to tell you to look at more than basketball reference, then this community kind-of let you down, because nothing I said should have been remotely unfamiliar.

This was more of a "I'm not really taking you seriously, so stop bothering me" instead of a "Please keep talking to me". Keep that in mind next time you feel the urge to quote me about John Stockton for the 10th time.

Ah yes, the best way to develop basketball understanding is to stick your fingers in your ears whenever someone directs your to better data than basketball-reference. Again, condolences that a “veteran” has not ever bothered to give you this talk, but maybe they just grasped that you had no inclination to try anything even slightly deeper.

Also, as a more general comment, if people are going to continually point to scalability/portability as reasons one player is “better”, I would think they would be giving weight to how Taylor himself assesses these seasons.

I posted a couple easily available stats to show Payton was in no way better than Stockton and you've been going on about me only using bkref to make assessments. Then you turn around and say RAPM and PIPM are the way to go, while those are stats that only further dillute BPM with worse stats like PER that you hate so much. You've been agitating just about everyone here, sitting on your high horse. You think you're some basketball god because you prefer looking at MVP votes over anything else. Maybe if you stop trying to pick fights with people who disagree with you they'd bother to listen to you. Right now you're just screaming in the wind.

[mailmp]

I posted a couple easily available stats to show Payton was in no way better than Stockton and you've been going on about me only using bkref to make assessments.

Yeah because there is a reason no decent analyst takes those remotely seriously. Hollinger himself has basically said PER was a really old thing he came up with years ago, and BPM is so bad that most analysts have gone out of their way to make their own better versions.

Also PIPM is easily available lol. That is not an excuse.

Then you turn around and say RAPM and PIPM are the way to go, while those are stats that only further dillute BPM with worse stats like PER that you hate so much.

...........................
You quite literally have no idea what any of this is, huh. It is 2020 (current year!), and somehow these are completely foreign to you.

Yes, I am diluting the swill that is basketball-reference’s BPM with metrics that actually make a legitimate effort at measuring impact. If I am the first person here you have seen use any of that, then despite my new account status evidently I have read far, far, far more of this forum than you have. This is old stuff in its own right, and there you are grumpily insisting you stay in the stone ages for no actual reason.

You've been agitating just about everyone here, sitting on your high horse.

Again, how dare I suggest you should develop opinions by more than looking at a basketball-reference page.

You think you're some basketball god because you prefer looking at MVP votes over anything else.

Is that why you are whining about all the non-MVP vote material I offered.

Guess what — people in the moment had a better grasp of what they were watching than BPM does. That is the standard you are needlessly tying yourself to.

Maybe if you stop trying to pick fights with people who disagree with you they'd bother to listen to you.

Or maybe people who claim to understand basketball should not be relying on broken metrics like BPM to mark their every opinion. There is so much out there and available right now, and here you are acting like someone stuck in 2013 who just learned what basketball was.

Right now you're just screaming in the wind

Quite right, so maybe you should stop blowing all this hot air and sit down and reevaluate your means of assessment.

[mailmp]

Also, as a more general comment, if people are going to continually point to scalability/portability as reasons one player is “better”, I would think they would be giving weight to how Taylor himself assesses these seasons.

Why?

Because when the guy who popularised and championed and published those very concepts is saying they do not markedly outweigh all otherwise clear player advantages, maybe that should be a signal that you are overvaluing it.

[70sFan]

Also, as a more general comment, if people are going to continually point to scalability/portability as reasons one player is “better”, I would think they would be giving weight to how Taylor himself assesses these seasons.

Why?

Because when the guy who popularised and championed and published those very concepts is saying they do not markedly outweigh all otherwise clear player advantages, maybe that should be a signal that you are overvaluing it.

I've used term of portability before I got touch with Ben's work. I value what he's doing very highly, but I don't have to agree with everything he says.

[mailmp]

Then how far are we going to take it. Was Shane Battier better than Alex English? At this point in his career Stockton was basically a top tier roleplayer. He was a glorified Ricky Rubio, or a José Calderon with defence. Which is of course still a good player, but his portability in no way means he was a better player to have on your team in terms of title contention. If the Jazz could have made a one-for-one trade for Payton in the late 1990s, they would have been dumb not to, and they probably could have gotten a title out of it.

You could literally double Stockton’s portability value in Ben’s calculus and 1998 Payton still grades as a better CORP player than any Stockton season from that period.

[Dutchball97]

Then how far are we going to take it. Was Shane Battier better than Alex English? At this point in his career Stockton was basically a top tier roleplayer. He was a glorified Ricky Rubio, or a José Calderon with defence. Which is of course still a good player, but his portability in no way means he was a better player to have on your team in terms of title contention. If the Jazz could have made a one-for-one trade for Payton in the late 1990s, they would have been dumb not to, and they probably could have gotten a title out of it.

You could literally double Stockton’s portability value in Ben’s calculus and 1998 Payton still grades as a better CORP player than any Stockton season from that period.

You're absolutely sure you're not just some troll account? 97 Stockton a role player but Payton is the second best guard of the 90s because he managed to decently guard MJ for a few games? Man, you're something else. Throw a couple more eyerolls out, maybe you'll finally convince someone.