Here are the players I have ranked over AI that year:
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
KG
Dirk
Webber
Stockton
T-Mac
Here is the post I had about Stockton vs AI and how close that comparison was:
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Iverson had 6.1 VORP in regular season which was 41.5% of team total, over 71 games.
Stockton had 5.3 VORP in regular season which was 33.3% of team total, over 82 games.
Iverson 8.2 VORP (42.7%)
Stockton 5.9 VORP (34.2%)
Odinn21 wrote:Stockton has no case over Iverson in 2001. It's incredible that we're at a point motor and play time is not even considered properly and thrown out of the window as if it's not important.
Despite playing in 11 more games compared to Iverson, Stockton played nearly 600 minutes less than Iverson. And considering Stockton averaged 29.2 minutes per game, that's more than 20 games played for Stockton. This is just regular season.
In total, Stockton played 2582 minutes and Iverson played 3999 minutes. 3999/2582 = 155%. And the sheer gap is equivalent of 48 games for Stockton. The gap is just massive.
Stockon's +/- (driven) numbers are always impressive. But he did not have the motor in 2001.
On a per-possession basis, is becoming one of the most ridiculous arguments...
Here;Iverson had 6.1 VORP in regular season which was 41.5% of team total, over 71 games.
Stockton had 5.3 VORP in regular season which was 33.3% of team total, over 82 games.
With playoffs included;Iverson 8.2 VORP (42.7%)
Stockton 5.9 VORP (34.2%)
And BPM design loves Stockton far, far more than Iverson.
Also, let's penalize a player trying to carry an offense nearly all by himself. Iverson scored 28.43% (2207/7763) of his team's total points in the season. The closest number was McKie's 878.
It was clear that the team was built around Iverson's scoring and defense. Penalizing Iverson for his team's ORtg doesn't make sense. This is almost as odd as saying Iverson led his team to a top 5 defense.
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Stockton is on there in that list but not Ray Allen... Interesting.
Anyways. Only O'Neal, Duncan and Bryant were definitely ahead of Iverson. Iverson had good arguments against the rest of the field. I don't know if he'd make my top 5 for the season, but he's around there.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.
lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
homecourtloss wrote:Odinn21 wrote:Stockton has no case over Iverson in 2001. It's incredible that we're at a point motor and play time is not even considered properly and thrown out of the window as if it's not important.
Despite playing in 11 more games compared to Iverson, Stockton played nearly 600 minutes less than Iverson. And considering Stockton averaged 29.2 minutes per game, that's more than 20 games played for Stockton. This is just regular season.
In total, Stockton played 2582 minutes and Iverson played 3999 minutes. 3999/2582 = 155%. And the sheer gap is equivalent of 48 games for Stockton. The gap is just massive.
Stockon's +/- (driven) numbers are always impressive. But he did not have the motor in 2001.
On a per-possession basis, is becoming one of the most ridiculous arguments...
Here;Iverson had 6.1 VORP in regular season which was 41.5% of team total, over 71 games.
Stockton had 5.3 VORP in regular season which was 33.3% of team total, over 82 games.
With playoffs included;Iverson 8.2 VORP (42.7%)
Stockton 5.9 VORP (34.2%)
And BPM design loves Stockton far, far more than Iverson.
Also, let's penalize a player trying to carry an offense nearly all by himself. Iverson scored 28.43% (2207/7763) of his team's total points in the season. The closest number was McKie's 878.
It was clear that the team was built around Iverson's scoring and defense. Penalizing Iverson for his team's ORtg doesn't make sense. This is almost as odd as saying Iverson led his team to a top 5 defense.
---
Stockton is on there in that list but not Ray Allen... Interesting.
Anyways. Only O'Neal, Duncan and Bryant were definitely ahead of Iverson. Iverson had good arguments against the rest of the field. I don't know if he'd make my top 5 for the season, but he's around there.
The team wasn’t built around his defense. As for offense, yes, it’s incredible what he burdened volume wise at his size, but in the end, he was a high usage player who had the most impact on the offense the team generated and it was a mediocre one.
As for Stockton vs. Iverson, Stockton still provided more winning impact than Iverson did and by a large degree, so that gives him an argument, even at age 38.
Jaivl wrote:Top 10 but not top 5. And better than Stockton, lol.
kendogg wrote:LMAO stockton wasn't even better at defense at that point in his career compared to iverson. AI was a very good on-ball defender and led the league in steals a few times, including in 2001.
KobesScarf wrote:Regular season only #1
Overall #3 behind Kobe and Shaq
Regular season70sFan wrote:KobesScarf wrote:Regular season only #1
Overall #3 behind Kobe and Shaq
So you actually have him over Duncan?
KobesScarf wrote:Regular season70sFan wrote:KobesScarf wrote:Regular season only #1
Overall #3 behind Kobe and Shaq
So you actually have him over Duncan?
1.Iverson
2.Duncan
3.Shaq/Kobe
Playoffs
1.Shaq/Kobe
2.Iverson
3.Duncan
70sFan wrote:KobesScarf wrote:Regular season70sFan wrote:So you actually have him over Duncan?
1.Iverson
2.Duncan
3.Shaq/Kobe
Playoffs
1.Shaq/Kobe
2.Iverson
3.Duncan
So you think that Iverson was better than prime Duncan? Seriously?
KobesScarf wrote:70sFan wrote:KobesScarf wrote:Regular season
1.Iverson
2.Duncan
3.Shaq/Kobe
Playoffs
1.Shaq/Kobe
2.Iverson
3.Duncan
So you think that Iverson was better than prime Duncan? Seriously?
That season yes. Duncan is better every other year though.
Pelly24 wrote:i feel like AI is just a very hard player to truly contextualize and properly evaluate. In my opinion, he was better than Ray Allen and Vince Carter and people like that. He dropped 50 on peak Lakers. Being able to get that many buckets at that rate in *that* era is just insane, even if the efficiency was only so-so. If you look at it this way: could the 76ers have reasonably been expected to perform better with anyone else in AI's position? If this was a test he got an A+. They got to the finals and took a game from two top 3 players at their peak in a lot of ways. Maybe if it's a weaker team AI is a champion. I think the idea that AI maximized the situation is overlooked.
I'd say Shaq, Kobe, KG, TD and probably dirk over AI for that season.
Some things can't be measured by pure stats. And for what it's worth I'm pretty sure peak AI could average 33/7 on 60 TS%. Nobody in the whole world could keep him away from the basket, and he'd dunk on small centers, honestly.
kendogg wrote:LMAO stockton wasn't even better at defense at that point in his career compared to iverson.