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The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#441 » by fleet » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:55 pm

DJhitek wrote:And to be clear, I’m neither for or totally against this pick. I’m not playing hindsight here, I basically hated this entire draft and would have rather traded back to pick up some players that can shoot.

My issue isn’t with the pick per say, it’s with the decision not to trade back.

Detroit tried to trade up to 3 to get Williams, and were sitting ready to pounce at 7. The Bulls could have traded down to 5 or 6 at best. And that’s not taking into account that if the Bulls saw so much in him, other teams behind the Bulls may have as well. He likely wasn’t gonna be there in the lower lottery or mid 1st even without Detroit.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#442 » by DJhitek » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:57 pm

Yeah I would have rather just traded back, pick up Vassel and a guy like Tyler from Stanford (who dropped to the second round).
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#443 » by dougthonus » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:03 pm

coldfish wrote:I'm certainly not one who believes that coaching and management is infallible. If we believe that they are always above reproach, there isn't much point in having a discussion board, right?

What I see on tape isn't particularly impressive. I'm a Bulls fan so I hope I am spectacularly wrong.


My assessment isn't much different than yours, but I will say this, and I've said it before, and maybe you've seen me say it before.

A normal draft, you have about 6 weeks tops to work out before private workouts, maybe even less. That assumes you find an agent immediately and get in the gym immediately and don't take any time off.

This year, you had about 7 months to do that under those same circumstances. Williams seems like a humble and hungry guy that likely went hard working on his skills for that amount of time. Working with an NBA grade pro-trainer for 6 months just on your game, fundamentals, whatever might literally be the longest stretch that any pro prospect has ever gotten to do this uninterrupted by basketball games. Even pros don't have this much time to ever do this.

Fundamentally what we saw in tape from a year ago may simply not remotely be where these guys are at now. In six months with a pro trainer, someone may have worked on improving his release speed, lateral quickness, handle, off the dribble shooting, whatever. I have no idea.

Now the odds of this are the same for any prospect, all of them had this time, and anyone confident in their next stop being in the NBA likely had these means. The lotto guys probably had the most opportunity though, because the agencies would make teh most money off them and want them to improve the most.

The guys whom have NBA athleticism / bodies and need fundamental skill development would also be the ones most likely to make big strides because that's exactly the type of thing you can do in this environment most successfully.

The guys whom were willing to put in the hard work, would be the ones most likely to make the biggest gains as well.

So while everyone had this opportunity, if you look at how this opportunity would benefit people, Williams checks all the boxes as the type of guy whom would improve the most in this scenario, and that could trivially explain why he skyrocketed up draft boards relative to the film that's available from Oct-Mar of last year.

Granted, athletic guys often impress in workouts and then sometimes people get wowed by that empty gym skill and take them (Kevin Knox being the most recent example in my head), but Williams showed a ton of intelligence in college, a willingness to not do too much, and a skill (defense) that he will be able to use immediately.

Williams wouldn't be my pick, but my pick is rooted on who all these players were by looking at highlights from Oct-Mar, the pick today and scouting by the various NBA teams also encompasses seeing everything they did during an 8 month blackout period that we just have no idea.

No maybe nothing really happened here, but there's a pretty good chance something did.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#444 » by Jcool0 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:04 pm

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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#445 » by kodo » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:05 pm

Indomitable wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:i said this in one of the pre-draft threads, but williams actually feels like a relatively *safe* pick for a 19-year-old who didn't start his freshman year. a big defender who projects as a solid-to-good shooter is a pretty soft landing as far as prospects go.

conversely, i don't really see a *ton* of upside? i can see him being a very useful role player, but unless fsu really asked him to compartmentalize his game, i would sum up my assessment of his non-shooting offensive game as "passing skills could be alright, shot creation skills not really worth commenting on." he is young, though, so i'm not gonna act like development on that front is impossible

i'm also kind of thrown by the types of nba players who fit a similar profile to him. i'm thinking he's going to land somewhere on the continuum of, like

james johnson
jae crowder
the morris twins
robert covington
jerami grant
jaylen brown

and you're really banking on him landing super high on that continuum if you're picking him four. whichever morris twin happens to be good at any given moment is a useful player — a good, big body defender who can shoot. he's also a player who signs for the MLE and is on the move constantly.

you can't just get a good morris twin out of this pick and be happy with it. (well, maybe you can, considering the draft.)


Robert Covington's trade value is so insanely high. If AK has drafted a Covington, then maybe he knows what he's doing.


Covington has a good contract and lacks ego. The perfect team player.


Patrick's shooting should be better than the comp list. Most of the list were not natural shooters who learned to shoot in the NBA. In the NCAA Johnson shot in the 60s from the FT line, Morris 60s, Jerami in the 50s as a freshman, Jaylen 60s, etc.. Patrick shot 84% as a freshman, his shooting upside should be a lot higher than those guys.

The list of comparable 6' 8" defenders who shot as well as 84% from the line as freshmen isn't really well populated. I can only think of Gordon Hayward. The guys who shot that well from the line are almost always upper classmen, like Mikal Bridges. Freshman shooters with that much consistency, I remember only Herro & Booker.

At the very least, he should be a very good spot up shooter. I'm guessing shooting potential + youth, since in a normal year he would have been drafted as an 18 year old, is why we grabbed him.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#446 » by The Explorer » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:06 pm

Never even heard of Patrick Williams until yesterday afternoon.
I can give him a chance. I don't see much separation of the 4-12 guys anyway. Its not like they missed out on a sure fire star. Williams seems to have a high ceiling given that he's 19 and hasn't played many minutes yet. He comes from a strong upbringing which is always nice to see.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#447 » by Peelboy » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:12 pm

My $.02, with the caveat that my preference would have been a trade down w someone to pick up extra picks and get Kira Lewis. But that doesn't seem to have been feasible which makes sense given the similarity of guys after top 3.

Basically in the light of day, every potential pick had serious warts. Avdija - shot/D, Okoro - shot, Toppin - upside/age, Hayes/Haliburton - athleticism, etc. From the various reports, seem like PW is fairly athletic, defends well, has shown glimpses of having a good shot and some handling/playmaking. And he's the youngest in the draft and a super-hard worker/coachable. So seems like a floor of a decent 3&D guy and a ceiling of an upper end starter albiet probably not a superstar. which in this draft seems as good as one could get. Again - preferred to have that kind of outcome and obtain extra assets but that doesn't seem to have been an option and not sure there was a superstar caliber guy out there.

I also combine AK's history/judgment with the fact that the other team reportedly high on PW was Detroit with Troy Weaver, another guy who is highly respected/thought of from a good draft/develop org. There is a world where a lineup of Coby-Zach-PW-Lauri-Wendell is a pretty good 2-way group with D at 1-3-5 and shooting across the board. A lot depends on the development and coaching which was something AK stated from the beginning.

EDIT: Also, I came across a stat that there are 2 players in NCAA history with PW's combo of FT%, S, B in one of first 2 seasons. PW and Tatum. FWIW.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#448 » by qianlong » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:22 pm

I think he will be a fine player, just not an all star or the result you hope from a high pick, but the entire draft was meh. While in general I don't expect much all stars from the draft, I'm quite sure that at least one of the maybe prospects in the first round will result in a very good player, that all other teams will regret not taking. It happens almost every year. For sure drafting takes sill from the FO and drafting high is better than low, but I strongly believe outside of the clear 1 picks, there is also a good part of luck in the process.

As an aside, while I expect him to contribute with defense, I also expect him to foul a lot in the first year or two. Rookies do not get favorable treatment from the refs, and defensive players generally suffer from it at the beginning. Plus he seems to jump a lot on pump fakes and with long arms he will be called for reaching often
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#449 » by BahamaBull » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:24 pm



dont know if this was already posted...but this is a very good deep dive on his game.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#450 » by coldfish » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:26 pm

dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:I'm certainly not one who believes that coaching and management is infallible. If we believe that they are always above reproach, there isn't much point in having a discussion board, right?

What I see on tape isn't particularly impressive. I'm a Bulls fan so I hope I am spectacularly wrong.


My assessment isn't much different than yours, but I will say this, and I've said it before, and maybe you've seen me say it before.

A normal draft, you have about 6 weeks tops to work out before private workouts, maybe even less. That assumes you find an agent immediately and get in the gym immediately and don't take any time off.

This year, you had about 7 months to do that under those same circumstances. Williams seems like a humble and hungry guy that likely went hard working on his skills for that amount of time. Working with an NBA grade pro-trainer for 6 months just on your game, fundamentals, whatever might literally be the longest stretch that any pro prospect has ever gotten to do this uninterrupted by basketball games. Even pros don't have this much time to ever do this.

Fundamentally what we saw in tape from a year ago may simply not remotely be where these guys are at now. In six months with a pro trainer, someone may have worked on improving his release speed, lateral quickness, handle, off the dribble shooting, whatever. I have no idea.

Now the odds of this are the same for any prospect, all of them had this time, and anyone confident in their next stop being in the NBA likely had these means. The lotto guys probably had the most opportunity though, because the agencies would make teh most money off them and want them to improve the most.

The guys whom have NBA athleticism / bodies and need fundamental skill development would also be the ones most likely to make big strides because that's exactly the type of thing you can do in this environment most successfully.

The guys whom were willing to put in the hard work, would be the ones most likely to make the biggest gains as well.

So while everyone had this opportunity, if you look at how this opportunity would benefit people, Williams checks all the boxes as the type of guy whom would improve the most in this scenario, and that could trivially explain why he skyrocketed up draft boards relative to the film that's available from Oct-Mar of last year.

Granted, athletic guys often impress in workouts and then sometimes people get wowed by that empty gym skill and take them (Kevin Knox being the most recent example in my head), but Williams showed a ton of intelligence in college, a willingness to not do too much, and a skill (defense) that he will be able to use immediately.

Williams wouldn't be my pick, but my pick is rooted on who all these players were by looking at highlights from Oct-Mar, the pick today and scouting by the various NBA teams also encompasses seeing everything they did during an 8 month blackout period that we just have no idea.

No maybe nothing really happened here, but there's a pretty good chance something did.


Overall, this draft was terrible. One of the worst I have seen. Even in bad drafts there will be gems though. Those guys are the people who work the hardest and want it the most. That's also the aspect that us fans have absolutely no clue on because its away from our eyes.

I deeply hope you and the other people being positive are right. The player who was at FSU last year is not someone I would use a top 10 pick on, let alone #4.

Maybe AK has this whole system in mind where he brings in people with elite size and a good attitude and he teaches them how to play. If so, that bodes very well for the Bulls going forward.

OTOH, its not like no one has thought of that before. Drafting a project and developing them is as old as drafting. Its been my life experience that people are frequently all talk and no results. I'm not going to bank on something happening just because the new guy says it will.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#451 » by TheStig » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:33 pm

fleet wrote:
DJhitek wrote:And to be clear, I’m neither for or totally against this pick. I’m not playing hindsight here, I basically hated this entire draft and would have rather traded back to pick up some players that can shoot.

My issue isn’t with the pick per say, it’s with the decision not to trade back.

Detroit tried to trade up to 3 to get Williams, and were sitting ready to pounce at 7. The Bulls could have traded down to 5 or 6 at best. And that’s not taking into account that if the Bulls saw so much in him, other teams behind the Bulls may have as well. He likely wasn’t gonna be there in the lower lottery or mid 1st even without Detroit.

You also need a willing trade partner. Why do the Cavs or Hawks trade up? Maybe the Cavs trade up but take Williams instead of Okoro since he's there. I think people look at the Mavs trading up for Luka. And that's because that's their guy. If the two teams below us knew there guy would be there or they weren't strong for one guy or another, they didn't offer anything.

There also wasn't anyone moving early lotto picks. So clearly there was no missed opportunity and the value to move down wasn't there.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#452 » by blumeany » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:35 pm

If you believe that Detroit was willing to trade ahead of Chicago for him, and if you concur that his tape and scouting report is not impressive, wouldn't it have made much more sense for the Bulls to trade him to Detroit? Assuming Detroit *was* interested in him enough to trade for the #3, that would mean that the Bulls FO was 110% dedicated to drafting this kid. They would have had no one ranked as high as him on their board that they wouldn't be willing to give him over to Detroit for extra draft capital.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#453 » by BahamaBull » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:40 pm

Thank god Im not a basketball analyst/scout. Im watching 100s of video of PWill...Not impressed at all...Looking at the videos I wonder what caught Bulls attention.

I dont think he is super athletic. Hes got a nice body but I dont think he is athletic at all...Hes not a dunker that plays above the rim...His first step is meh...lateral move is meh...Shooting form is nice but is slow...He moves like a robot...damn...I know Im wrong...just giving the eye test from a basketball fan...Again thank god AK is in charge and not me :)

Lets go Bulls! Good luck PWILL!!!!!
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#454 » by RedBulls23 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:42 pm

coldfish wrote:After a night to think about it . . . still not impressed. His upside seems to be a role player and his downside is bust. The tape on him really isn't impressive at all.

I'm looking for pro's here. I struggle to find many. He plays like a 4 and as such, is actually undersized. His shooting form is really slow. He is going to have to get a ton of room to shoot. His handle is mediocre. He isn't particularly quick on the floor. His best asset is as a help defender. He looks like a shorter Wendell Carter from where I am sitting.

If anyone taken behind PW does well, AK is going to get a lot of grief here.

The only sliver of hope is that this is a Jimmy Butler type situation where the guy works his ass off to become a completely different player in a few years.

AK seems to be putting a ton on the idea that he can develop players better than other teams. If so, that's fantastic. He will have to walk the walk though.

The bold tends to go for all draft picks when you're picking this high or in general if you pass on guys that eventually become good.

For me, after the last day doing research and really reading about him from a lot of draft people that really know their stuff, I'm cautiously optimistic.

We'll see what happens.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#455 » by gobullschi » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:49 pm

Two quotes that stood out to me during AK’s press conference were:

    “His ball-handling is something that’s very under-rated and people didn’t see it in college. Where for three years in high school, he played point guard”


    “When he played point guard in high school, he was very small. He grew 8 inches in high school but kept his skill set. That’s valuable”

If he grew 8 inches in high school, it’s possible that he is still growing.

I’m cautiously optimistic about the pick. I love the player AK describes even though the film that I’ve watched doesn’t really match up to the description. If those skills exist and were masked by a college season cut short, then the Bulls might have walked away with the best prospect in the class.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#456 » by coldfish » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:52 pm

Jcool0 wrote:Probably the most detailed deep dive you will read on him.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/11/10/21556874/2020-nba-draft-patrick-williams-florida-state


Thanks for the link. Made me feel more optimistic.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#457 » by Indomitable » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:53 pm

BahamaBull wrote:Thank god Im not a basketball analyst/scout. Im watching 100s of video of PWill...Not impressed at all...Looking at the videos I wonder what caught Bulls attention.

I dont think he is super athletic. Hes got a nice body but I dont think he is athletic at all...Hes not a dunker that plays above the rim...His first step is meh...lateral move is meh...Shooting form is nice but is slow...He moves like a robot...damn...I know Im wrong...just giving the eye test from a basketball fan...Again thank god AK is in charge and not me :)

Lets go Bulls! Good luck PWILL!!!!!

I question his quickness. He is a strong man. He has some interesting skills.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#458 » by Indomitable » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:54 pm

coldfish wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Probably the most detailed deep dive you will read on him.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/11/10/21556874/2020-nba-draft-patrick-williams-florida-state


Thanks for the link. Made me feel more optimistic.

In less then a month we will see what is there.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#459 » by cjbulls » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:55 pm

fleet wrote:
Red8911 wrote:
coldfish wrote:After a night to think about it . . . still not impressed. His upside seems to be a role player and his downside is bust. The tape on him really isn't impressive at all.

I'm looking for pro's here. I struggle to find many. He plays like a 4 and as such, is actually undersized. His shooting form is really slow. He is going to have to get a ton of room to shoot. His handle is mediocre. He isn't particularly quick on the floor. His best asset is as a help defender. He looks like a shorter Wendell Carter from where I am sitting.

If anyone taken behind PW does well, AK is going to get a lot of grief here.

The only sliver of hope is that this is a Jimmy Butler type situation where the guy works his ass off to become a completely different player in a few years.

AK seems to be putting a ton on the idea that he can develop players better than other teams. If so, that's fantastic. He will have to walk the walk though.
You don’t even know much about him how do you know what his upside or downside is ? AK was the one who did heavy scouting on these players and he/bulls staff felt like Patrick Williams was the best player available with the highest potential at 4. Just because the media and some “experts” had him going at 10 or later doesn’t mean anything. The fans or the media do not make the pick. On AKs list Williams was high , that’s all that matters.

This draft class was terrible and now was the time to go for potential. You think the other 3 teams that chose before the bulls have drafted well? I don’t think so, first Charlotte is going to regret drafting Ball and Wiseman doesn’t look like anything special. I don’t know if Williams will be good or not but again AK knows more than we do and the only time we can criticize this pick is if he actually turns out to suck. Until then though we have to take the to be determined approach.

The people outraged at taking him at 4 have to be able to reasonably show the superiority of the guys taken after Williams. And they can’t do that. There are no obviously better picks. So acting as if there were better picks so as to justify the outrage is a case missing convincing evidence.


Okoro was better in every way except shooting, where Williams is far from a proven commodity. We can start there.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#460 » by cjbulls » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:59 pm

blumeany wrote:If you believe that Detroit was willing to trade ahead of Chicago for him, and if you concur that his tape and scouting report is not impressive, wouldn't it have made much more sense for the Bulls to trade him to Detroit? Assuming Detroit *was* interested in him enough to trade for the #3, that would mean that the Bulls FO was 110% dedicated to drafting this kid. They would have had no one ranked as high as him on their board that they wouldn't be willing to give him over to Detroit for extra draft capital.


Fair assessment. Detroit had 7 and 16 to try and move up. The only guys leaving the board would have been Okoro at 5 and Okongwu at 6, leaving Deni, Hali, Hayes, Kira, Vassell etc. Then they could have taken Poku at 16 if developmental guys were that important to the new FO

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