The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

[ThisGuyFawkes]

The morning after I am feeling much better about this pick. Love his NBA-prototype body, love his PG history in high school, love his attitude and work ethic, see promise offensively in the limited film we have and his FT percentage, and see great potential defensively. In a weak draft, I think AK made the right choice in taking a shot at a very young player with huge upside in today's NBA.

I don't expect him to contribute much this year. The good news is that the season starts in a month, so we will all be able to see his progress or lack thereof soon.

Yeah, this sums up my thoughts very well. I don't see any huge red flags like many of the other top prospects have. I'm really rooting for this young man to reach his potential, and I think he will.

[Rose2Boozer]

TJ Warren comp here...

Nah, Warren is a natural scorer. He's more like the exact opposite of T.J Warren. I don't think Patrick Williams will struggle much defensively. Offensively is another story. I think it does Williams a disservice giving fans the impression that he's a legit three man. Sure, he can guard the position, but Williams is best suited for the four. Now let's see how his jumper progress.

[Portiseyes]

I’m very disappointed... Detroit basically had the exact draft haul I was hoping for for the Bulls. Jesus what a gut punch. We have a team full of young lotto picks and nobody to playmake (and I like Coby but let’s be realistic about what he probably is / will be). We had a chance at a young savant who never had a chance to get into an American style training regimen, who could get his shot and was a promising defender, and what did we decide to do?

We went all in on a WCJ clone. Honestly, I like Patrick Williams, great f’ing kid, great f’ing family... you know, if I had to pick three dudes in the nba to drop acid with and go for a hike give me Patrick, Wendell and Coby all day. But seriously, the obvious physical/talent/skills similarities aside, we just got another introvert with a borderline unrealistic belief in his own capabilities (eg “I can guard 1 - 5 is actually a red flag to me...), who doesn’t seem to possess natural competitive aggression, and will let others define them because as introverts they are sort of happy to live in their own mental world.

WCJ had the worst possible scenario play out because his parents moved out to Chicago with him and he got a raw deal in his / Bulls coaching situation. Let WCJ be a lesson for PW, if you have a belief in what you think you can be, make a plan and execute it, don’t just work hard, be a little selfish on the court and with your new professional relationships, be a little hard headed and carry a chip. Don’t whine, dominate... lead. Because your ceiling is not going to happen if you don’t take control and you’ll be left with what if’s. I know this is a hella weird post but I’ve been wanting to speak on WCJ for a while because I think he has a lot of potential but time is running out for him to create himself on the basketball court.

Both these guys should get into some kind of meditation practice so they can quiet and control their minds a bit, maintain focus, let the game come to them and stop overthinking. They need to take the disrespect personally and try to develop a bit of that psycho competitive personality that would be so so useful to them. They both need to be made a LOT more active in the passing game for the long term good of the team even if there are bumps in the short term... need to harness and direct the high IQ that both possess. They both need to put a **** ton of work in on their handle and get exaggerated in-game experience with the ball in their hands so they can get a lot more comfortable and confident in those situations, and not just making the quick read. They both have a high upside (PW especially if he can get some more bend and work on his lateral). Again they need to develop their aggression on the court, because if it doesn’t happen on the court then it doesn’t really count for them.

[cjbulls]

It's a weird pick by the Bulls, but to be honest, Patrick Williams does remind me of Larry Johnson, so here is hoping he can develop into something close to the L-Train

As a freshman, LJ averaged 20 and 11 on 62% FG with 1.6 steals and 1.4 blocks for #1 team in the country, who went on to win the title that year.

[Jello Biafra]

After a night to think about it . . . still not impressed. His upside seems to be a role player and his downside is bust. The tape on him really isn't impressive at all.

I'm looking for pro's here. I struggle to find many. He plays like a 4 and as such, is actually undersized. His shooting form is really slow. He is going to have to get a ton of room to shoot. His handle is mediocre. He isn't particularly quick on the floor. His best asset is as a help defender. He looks like a shorter Wendell Carter from where I am sitting.

If anyone taken behind PW does well, AK is going to get a lot of grief here.

The only sliver of hope is that this is a Jimmy Butler type situation where the guy works his ass off to become a completely different player in a few years.

AK seems to be putting a ton on the idea that he can develop players better than other teams. If so, that's fantastic. He will have to walk the walk though.

Its no secret the Bulls are now a player development franchise model. Billy Donovan is all about it. And they have built out a major player development staff. It is clear they want the talent, not necessarily the honed skills for acquisitions.

Haha shorter Wendell Carter. I don’t see that at all but to each his own. But I do think AK isn’t going into this blindly. It is not too generous to assume that the basic skills they think they can develop in him are present and most likely demonstrated in the workout they had with him.


“His ball-handling is something that’s very underrated, and people didn’t see it in college,” Karnisovas said. “Where for three years in high school, he played point guard. I was very impressed”

I see Wendell in the way he moves. He has a similar build, moves his feet and gathers like Wendell.

[MrSparkle]

If you’re 6’8, 230 lb, athletic, in-shape, and you have no real flaws on the court, you are pretty much a floor NBA top-8 rotation player with ceiling, depending on work ethic and personality. Few guys come to mind who disappointed in this mold (JJ for us), but that could’ve been more on Thibs and the fit at the time. I actually think JJ would’ve been very useful in the Miami series; let Boozer ride the pine.

PW has a gigantic shoulder frame and seems to be all-muscle, with hops and speed.

Nice thing is he should be easy to develop. Good attitude, good shot form, good base-handles, good awareness.

Honestly, he’s got more going for him than a lot of other picks. If I’m GSW, I start sweating whether taking Wiseman and running was the ticket. That dude has a lot of things to learn, whereas Patrick would’ve been the Dray/Paschall type with a humble attitude. GS built all its success (on the Splash Bros) with versatile hybrid wings and junk-stock centers, not the other way around. If Klay is indeed lost for the year, I’m panicking. Cause that team is in major offensive trouble if Curry is supposed to open the floor for 3 space-killers.

Anyway, this will be easy to evaluate within a year. We’ll see more Ayton/Bagley types then Luka/Trae, so if we got the JJJ or Shai quality out the draft, that’d be great. If he’s a Crowder/Harrell/JJ at worse, atleast he can address this team’s pitiful defensive situation at forward?

Combo forwards roughly fitting Patrick's profile

Nassir Little
DeAndre Hunter
James Johnson
Derrick Williams
James Posey
OG Anunoby
Stanley Johnson
Justise Winslow
Trey Lyles
Harrison Barnes
Mo Harkless

This is not a murderers row, most of these guys aren't even NBA starters. None made an all-star team.

Honestly, you're just listing non-star forwards in the NBA that share little to no resemblance as people and in skills. You could've also added Artest, Crowder, Iguodala, Butler with more wing-span, Isaac (who was a very promising prospect prior to knee tears), Finney-Smith, RoCo, Haichimura, Morris Bros (with a brain).

One common trait particularly amongst the more talented busts/let-downs was that their BB IQ, work ethic and drive proved to be sub-par, coupled with perhaps bad attitude: ie Johnson, Williams, and Barnes. And injuries can pay their toll (in the case of Winslow, OG's ACL, Nassir, etc.). JJ just seems like a weird case of a character (Steven Seagall?). Derrick Williams was a totally raw BB player with no awareness and skill, and apparently poor work ethic.

Pretty telling quote by Nick Nurse here on Stanley Johnson: https://pistonpowered.com/2019/11/09/now-former-detroit-pistons-forward-stanley-johnson

If Zach had Arci's basketball traits, he'd perhaps be a top-5 player. IQ, attitude, awareness and drive are primarily what separate Stanley Johnson from Kawhi. Problem is GarPax would get that part of the formula right, in the bodies of McDermott, Hinrich or broken skill-sets/shooting (Taj, Noah, Deng). If Artunas got the right combo of basketball smarts and skills, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the body profile of a heavy/strong, tall/long, athletic forward.

I just see it as a stroke of confidence in the training staff. They took a raw guy with solid skills, great attitude, great physical traits, and an excellent staff.

[ChiTownJedi]

Question,

Serious question. We've heard how the NBA is moving and valuing postionless flexibility more and more... yet fans seems to constantly zero in on the 1 or 2 inches, or 5-10 lbs or, .3 second slower 3 cone shuttle timer that doesn't wedge a prospect into a nice boxed in mold for a position....

It's almost as if we are looking at the qualities that would make someone a prototypical position fit, when that isn't actually valued in the league as much at all.

We like to talk about how his lateral quickness may allow him to guard an NBA SF? Well how will these generic NBA SF handle him? It like there is this perfection we compare him too in terms of physical attributes -- but are not accounting for the intangibles that actually separate a Wiggins from a Luka. A just turned 19 year old with his overall package and work ethic and upside --- but the issue is if he's Eddie Robinson cat quick (when that didn't help EROBS D at all). Sometimes your effort and IQ can make up for not being in the 99th percentile for this cardboard cut out SF that exist...

How can anyone know anything until he plays -- in the NBA -- and develops?

[cjbulls]

If you’re 6’8, 230 lb, athletic, in-shape, and you have no real flaws on the court, you are pretty much a floor NBA top-8 rotation player with ceiling, depending on work ethic and personality. Few guys come to mind who disappointed in this mold (JJ for us), but that could’ve been more on Thibs and the fit at the time. I actually think JJ would’ve been very useful in the Miami series; let Boozer ride the pine.

PW has a gigantic shoulder frame and seems to be all-muscle, with hops and speed.

Nice thing is he should be easy to develop. Good attitude, good shot form, good base-handles, good awareness.

Honestly, he’s got more going for him than a lot of other picks. If I’m GSW, I start sweating whether taking Wiseman and running was the ticket. That dude has a lot of things to learn, whereas Patrick would’ve been the Dray/Paschall type with a humble attitude. GS built all its success (on the Splash Bros) with versatile hybrid wings and junk-stock centers, not the other way around. If Klay is indeed lost for the year, I’m panicking. Cause that team is in major offensive trouble if Curry is supposed to open the floor for 3 space-killers.

Anyway, this will be easy to evaluate within a year. We’ll see more Ayton/Bagley types then Luka/Trae, so if we got the JJJ or Shai quality out the draft, that’d be great. If he’s a Crowder/Harrell/JJ at worse, atleast he can address this team’s pitiful defensive situation at forward?

Combo forwards roughly fitting Patrick's profile

Nassir Little
DeAndre Hunter
James Johnson
Derrick Williams
James Posey
OG Anunoby
Stanley Johnson
Justise Winslow
Trey Lyles
Harrison Barnes
Mo Harkless

This is not a murderers row, most of these guys aren't even NBA starters. None made an all-star team.

Honestly, you're just listing non-star forwards in the NBA that share little to no resemble as people and skills. You could've also added Artest, Crowder, Iguodala, Butler with more wing-span, Isaac (who was a very promising prospect prior to knee tears), Finney-Smith, RoCo, Haichimura, Morris Bros (with a brain).

One common trait particularly amongst the more talented busts/let-downs was that their BB IQ, work ethic and drive proved to be sub-par, coupled with perhaps bad attitude: ie Johnson, Williams, and Barnes. And injuries can pay their toll (in the case of Winslow, OG's ACL, Nassir, etc.). JJ just seems like a weird case of a character (Steven Seagall?).

Pretty telling quote by Nick Nurse here on Stanley Johnson: https://pistonpowered.com/2019/11/09/now-former-detroit-pistons-forward-stanley-johnson

If Zach had Arci's basketball traits, he'd perhaps be a top-5 player. IQ, attitude, awareness and drive are primarily what separate Stanley Johnson from Kawhi. Problem is GarPax would get that part right, in the bodies of McDermott, Hinrich or broken skill-sets (Taj, Noah, Deng). If Artunas got the right combo of basketball smarts and skills, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the body profile of a heavy/strong, tall/long, athletic forward.

No, I literally went through every FRP between 2020 and 2013, but remembered Posey and Derick Williams off the top of my head.

Kawhi, Iguodala, and Butler are wings, not combo forwards. I agree that Patrick has value if he can make it as a big 3, but he won’t sustain the quickness to effectively play the position as he gets older and bigger.

Artest is a fair choice, as are Crowder and the Morris Bros. Isaac was built differently that he doesn’t fit the profile. Rui is a PF only. I’ll also throw in Thad Young as another poster mentioned. So I guess artest is the only all star. We have a 1/16 chance he will make an All-Star Team. From the #4 pick.

Nassir Little
DeAndre Hunter
James Johnson
Derrick Williams
James Posey
OG Anunoby
Stanley Johnson
Justise Winslow
Trey Lyles
Harrison Barnes
Mo Harkless
Ron Artest
Markieff Morris
Marcus Morris
Jae Crowder
Thad Young

[MrSparkle]

Question,

Serious question. We've heard how the NBA is moving and valuing postionless flexibility more and more... yet fans seems to constantly zero in on the 1 or 2 inches, or 5-10 lbs or, .3 second slower 3 cone shuttle timer that doesn't wedge a prospect into a nice boxed in mold for a position....

It's almost as if we are looking at the qualities that would make someone a prototypical position fit, when that isn't actually valued in the league as much at all.

We like to talk about how his lateral quickness may allow him to guard an NBA SF? Well how will these generic NBA SF handle him? It like there is this perfection we compare him too in terms of physical attributes -- but are not accounting for the intangibles that actually separate a Wiggins from a Luka. A just turned 19 year old with his overall package and work ethic and upside --- but the issue is if he's Eddie Robinson cat quick (when that didn't help EROBS D at all). Sometimes your effort and IQ can make up for not being in the 99th percentile for this cardboard cut out SF that exist...

How can anyone know anything until he plays -- in the NBA -- and develops?

Great post. Despite everyone's open acknowledge of "position-less" basketball, a majority of the population still can't abandon the idea of position basketball.

There's a kind of secret algorithm out there that Artunas/Myers/Riley/Ainge/Masai have been nailing, and GarPax clearly didn't get it. There are these late 2nd rd steals like Paschall that GSW would get, and the same Bulls fans who wanted GarPax out are complaining about missing on Nico Mannion and Wiseman, or just taking a proto creator PG like Hayes.

I see the boom potential of Wiseman, but especially with Klay reportedly down in a bad way, I wouldn't be surprised if Myers/Kerr are currently panicking and thinking to themselves "We are ****ed." They have an aging and badly declined Draymond, whose shooting has gotten worse each season. Paschall is a good but low-tier prospect. Wiseman is not going to be shooting the ball. All hope lies in Wiggins expanding his range, cause as it stands, the Warriors will not contend for anything with one strong 3P threat on the floor, even if he's the best shooter ever. It reminds me when GM Kerr added Shaq to the Suns and it was essentially the dagger. The Wiseman-Warriors thing is not gonna work without both Splash Bros. The Otto-healthy Bulls are going to have better spacing than the Curry Warriors, unless they address their roster drastically.

If the complaints are about not getting Vassell or Okongwu, then I don't get it. Those guys are role-players with less ball-handling/creation potential, and more position-specific profiles (you're not playing Okongwu anywhere but center, and Vassell is probably a spot-up/3D SG/SF in the mold of Danny Green, with no creation skills).

[moorhosj]

As a freshman, LJ averaged 20 and 11 on 62% FG with 1.6 steals and 1.4 blocks for #1 team in the country, who went on to win the title that year.

LJ was a 20 year-old freshman.

[cjbulls]

As a freshman, LJ averaged 20 and 11 on 62% FG with 1.6 steals and 1.4 blocks for #1 team in the country, who went on to win the title that year.

LJ was a 20 year-old freshman.

Haha, ok fair enough. If we just would have waited two years, I’m sure Pat Williams would have been POY

[aldama23]

Question,

Serious question. We've heard how the NBA is moving and valuing postionless flexibility more and more... yet fans seems to constantly zero in on the 1 or 2 inches, or 5-10 lbs or, .3 second slower 3 cone shuttle timer that doesn't wedge a prospect into a nice boxed in mold for a position....

It's almost as if we are looking at the qualities that would make someone a prototypical position fit, when that isn't actually valued in the league as much at all.

We like to talk about how his lateral quickness may allow him to guard an NBA SF? Well how will these generic NBA SF handle him? It like there is this perfection we compare him too in terms of physical attributes -- but are not accounting for the intangibles that actually separate a Wiggins from a Luka. A just turned 19 year old with his overall package and work ethic and upside --- but the issue is if he's Eddie Robinson cat quick (when that didn't help EROBS D at all). Sometimes your effort and IQ can make up for not being in the 99th percentile for this cardboard cut out SF that exist...

How can anyone know anything until he plays -- in the NBA -- and develops?

Agree with you 100% Marcus

[Clint Eastwood]

It's a weird pick by the Bulls, but to be honest, Patrick Williams does remind me of Larry Johnson, so here is hoping he can develop into something close to the L-Train

I had posted the arrest comp, but grandmama isnt a bad one either. They have similar high release shooting form too.

[Clint Eastwood]

As a freshman, LJ averaged 20 and 11 on 62% FG with 1.6 steals and 1.4 blocks for #1 team in the country, who went on to win the title that year.

LJ was a 20 year-old freshman.

Haha, ok fair enough. If we just would have waited two years, I’m sure Pat Williams would have been POY

Or if we waited 2 years maybe he would have averaged 20/10 with 1.5 blocks and 1.5 steals. The comp is a solid one. Doesnt mean he will be as good as pre-back injury LJ, but he has some similarities. Both are physical freaks in terms of size/power with leaping. Both have nice midrange jumpers with very high release points.

[moorhosj]

Haha, ok fair enough. If we just would have waited two years, I’m sure Pat Williams would have been POY

Said another way, Patrick Williams was playing 23 minutes a game for the #4 team in the country, when LJ was playing JuCo at Odessa College. Either way it doesn't address any similarities or differences they might have in their games.

[JohnnyTapwater]

Ya'll remember when they tried to convince us that Marcus Fizer was a SF?

I don't think this will be that, I just remembered him and laughed.

I'm sticking to Patrick Williams reminds me of WCJ's contribution. Super - duper solid - no star quality - but he'll do things that help winning.

[FriedRise]

Kid's jacked and juiced!

[chefo]

If Williams is a WCJ clone who's not afraid to shoot when open, and can stay out of foul and injury trouble, then sign me up with both hands. You win with people like that, even if he peaks at something like 14/6/2.

[gobullschi]

Does he remind anyone of Thaddeus Young? That’s his floor IMO.

You can't just point to successful NBA players and then say that's the floor (although the comp is close enough to be fair). There are several players in that mold that are far worse than Young. It also seems to imply that Young did not reach his potential, which no one really agrees with. Young filled out as a starting NBA player, but there isn't much room to say he should have been better, let alone an All-Star as you would hope to get at #4 on your reach pick.

I can do whatever I want!

I think most people thought Thad would develop into a more dynamic offensive player when he was originally drafted. He didn’t quite reach his ceiling but has done a great job developing into a starting quality forward.

I think Thad Young is a fair floor. I view PWill as a relatively safe pick. His size and defense will allow him to carve out a long NBA career, but he has a higher offensive ceiling than Thad had.

[MrSparkle]

Combo forwards roughly fitting Patrick's profile

Nassir Little
DeAndre Hunter
James Johnson
Derrick Williams
James Posey
OG Anunoby
Stanley Johnson
Justise Winslow
Trey Lyles
Harrison Barnes
Mo Harkless

This is not a murderers row, most of these guys aren't even NBA starters. None made an all-star team.

Honestly, you're just listing non-star forwards in the NBA that share little to no resemble as people and skills. You could've also added Artest, Crowder, Iguodala, Butler with more wing-span, Isaac (who was a very promising prospect prior to knee tears), Finney-Smith, RoCo, Haichimura, Morris Bros (with a brain).

One common trait particularly amongst the more talented busts/let-downs was that their BB IQ, work ethic and drive proved to be sub-par, coupled with perhaps bad attitude: ie Johnson, Williams, and Barnes. And injuries can pay their toll (in the case of Winslow, OG's ACL, Nassir, etc.). JJ just seems like a weird case of a character (Steven Seagall?).

Pretty telling quote by Nick Nurse here on Stanley Johnson: https://pistonpowered.com/2019/11/09/now-former-detroit-pistons-forward-stanley-johnson

If Zach had Arci's basketball traits, he'd perhaps be a top-5 player. IQ, attitude, awareness and drive are primarily what separate Stanley Johnson from Kawhi. Problem is GarPax would get that part right, in the bodies of McDermott, Hinrich or broken skill-sets (Taj, Noah, Deng). If Artunas got the right combo of basketball smarts and skills, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the body profile of a heavy/strong, tall/long, athletic forward.

No, I literally went through every FRP between 2020 and 2013, but remembered Posey and Derick Williams off the top of my head.

Kawhi, Iguodala, and Butler are wings, not combo forwards. I agree that Patrick has value if he can make it as a big 3, but he won’t sustain the quickness to effectively play the position as he gets older and bigger.

Artest is a fair choice, as are Crowder and the Morris Bros. Isaac was built differently that he doesn’t fit the profile. Rui is a PF only. I’ll also throw in Thad Young as another poster mentioned. So I guess artest is the only all star. We have a 1/16 chance he will make an All-Star Team. From the #4 pick.

Nassir Little
DeAndre Hunter
James Johnson
Derrick Williams
James Posey
OG Anunoby
Stanley Johnson
Justise Winslow
Trey Lyles
Harrison Barnes
Mo Harkless
Ron Artest
Markieff Morris
Marcus Morris
Jae Crowder
Thad Young

Iguodala played spot-PF for most his time in GS and most recently MIA. Butler with more than a 6'8 wingspan would've been a dominant combo forward all day.

Anyway, I'll agree that if Williams can't really hang with wings at all, he's going to match the Crowder side of your list, which would be a 'meh' result. I'm not seeing the JJ, Williams, Johnson, Morris outcomes cause those guys had developmental/attitude issues - their teams couldn't wait to let them go.

This guy was glad to come off his college bench to help the team, which in the context of FSU's system, apparently wasn't a big a deal nor implying that he was a "second best" player on the team whatsoever.

I also don't buy much about the superstitious chances of becoming an all-star. 1/16? That sounds about in line with any FRP making the all-star game - we usually have 2-3 stars per draft, and a combo forward star is more dominant than a small-guard or big-man star, cause they are a defensive cog and impact the game both ways much more. So if those are the odds, sign me up.

If you made me bet on each guy's chance of becoming an all-star in the top-10, I sincerely think I'd go with Obi (and bad defense), cause he's the only guy I think will come into the league, make some exciting highlight plays while scoring a consistent 15-20 ppg and run well in a system. The rest all need a lot of work, or just don't have the star potential imo. LaMelo has an appealing ceiling with a scary floor - I can see him making the top-10 reel along with Shaqtin-a-fool. All this said, if he does pan out, then Edwards should be the best player in the draft by year 3. I just don't think he'll be looking very good this January.