Cavs F.A. 2020

[Stillwater]

There was a article on the Athletic that said opposing GMs see Collin Sexton as a really good bench player. So if thats the pulse around the league, I doubt anybody is really winding up to trade for him or offer him something Cleveland cannot.

In all, he is a very similar player to Westbrook in terms of play-style. He is a ball dominant guard that doesnt work off the ball well, doesnt facilitate well, he has a low BBIQ and feel for the game and doesnt play defense well. His only positive is transition offense and ISO ball. That to me screams 6th man. I just think he is destined to be a microwave scorer off the bench. You can compare his raw stats to Booker, Mitchell and Murry but what you cant compare is that those guys make the right smart plays and they initiate the offense. Sexton just sort of fumbles, bumbles and stumbles his way into 25 point scoring games on volume.

Like you said with Lavine though the Bulls were banking on the future but he never really progressed. I can see Collin being in that same boat, a starter on a bad team or a great role player on a good team. His vision and feel for the game just needs to improve dramatically.

Side note: this is also why subscribing to the BPA or bust model can backfire. You keep taking BPA and then you create a unbalanced roster that doesnt allow anybody to really succeed or breakthrough and you spend the next 3 years trying to figure out the fit with everybody.

no chance that is still the case like it was early on he is a gym rat and a film study machine which we have already witnessed. Just because outside the front office orgs claim he is a bench player doesnt mean jshizit

I mean I hope its not true but he was pretty awful last year with situational awareness. Kevin Love wanted to rip his head off on like 10 different occasions because he doesnt see the obvious play with his tunnel vision.

I dont know if thats something he can learn or if its just ingrained in him. Its very Dion Waiters-esq

I am pretty certain from my memory of those situations was Love being angry at Sexton doing what Beilein was telling him to do and Love blowing up at Beilein and Altman and being buddy buddy with Sexton after JBB took over.
There is a certain level of feel he lacks still if he is going to be assigned with creating for his teammates that would require reps he may not get more often than he has been for sure if DG is getting those opps, but I mean the improvement although subtle in results seems far more evident imo that what you are suggesting

[KuruptedCav]

sure but he is the one doing it so if the dime rate goes up or even just the feeds without finishes from his passed to teammates its his job to lose i mean garland has more to prove in other areas imo to justify staying in the sl.

Is there a stat somewhere that takes into account feeds without finishes? It would be interesting to see if Sexton really is that bad of a passer or if we've just had that bad of people attempting shots afterwards.

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[LivingLegend]

Is there a stat somewhere that takes into account feeds without finishes? It would be interesting to see if Sexton really is that bad of a passer or if we've just had that bad of people attempting shots afterwards.

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Thats the problem, we are aspiring to be a team that on the best of circumstances never even went to the Conference championship game. Dame/McCollum are great players, but somebody on the Cavs needs to be play initiators like both of them are. Neither Garland/Sexton have shown the can be anything close to that yet, certainly not Collin.

The other example of it working is Toronto with Lowry/Fred but both of those players are very good passers and play great defense, it also helps that in order for that team to succeed---they had great defensive help at every other positions so that they could run 2 PGs on the floor. Kawhi, OG, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol.

The Cavs dont have anything close to that roster. They wont work together and I just prefer the Cavs not waste the time to try and get a failed experiment to work.

[Stillwater]

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Thats the problem, we are aspiring to be a team that on the best of circumstances never even went to the Conference championship game. Dame/McCollum are great players, but somebody on the Cavs needs to be play initiators like both of them are. Neither Garland/Sexton have shown the can be anything close to that yet, certainly not Collin.

The other example of it working is Toronto with Lowry/Fred but both of those players are very good passers and play great defense, it also helps that in order for that team to succeed---they had great defensive help at every other positions so that they could run 2 PGs on the floor. Kawhi, OG, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol.

The Cavs dont have anything close to that roster. They wont work together and I just prefer the Cavs not waste the time to try and get a failed experiment to work.

Really all hinges on what they do with DG this season because he is not the level of elite playmaker that is going to push better players out of the rotation to make way for him if they are really trying to win this year so it should be fairly obvious within a couple of weeks after the season starts as too just what the orgs goals are unless they are giving JBB full reign control out the gate to experiment at his leisure.

[LivingLegend]

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Thats the problem, we are aspiring to be a team that on the best of circumstances never even went to the Conference championship game. Dame/McCollum are great players, but somebody on the Cavs needs to be play initiators like both of them are. Neither Garland/Sexton have shown the can be anything close to that yet, certainly not Collin.

The other example of it working is Toronto with Lowry/Fred but both of those players are very good passers and play great defense, it also helps that in order for that team to succeed---they had great defensive help at every other positions so that they could run 2 PGs on the floor. Kawhi, OG, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol.

The Cavs dont have anything close to that roster. They wont work together and I just prefer the Cavs not waste the time to try and get a failed experiment to work.

Really all hinges on what they do with DG this season because he is not the level of elite playmaker that is going to push better players out of the rotation to make way for him if they are really trying to win this year so it should be fairly obvious within a couple of weeks after the season starts as too just what the orgs goals are unless they are giving JBB full reign control out the gate to experiment at his leisure.

Sure but the Cavs didnt draft him #5 overall to not play/start him and give him every chance to succeed. He is def. in their future plans its just how can they get creative with him and Sexton to maximize both players effectiveness.

When they were on the floor together last year you could tell Garland would be passive and almost get out of Sextons way. He would just do a lot of standing around because he didnt know how to best play with him. Then around mid-season they made some changes and staggered their playing time more and subbed Sexton out halfway though the 1st qtr. You could instantly tell Garland was then more comfortable with just him being out there.

He took control more as the primary ball handler and looked more confident with Sexton out of the way. Thats why Im saying I think its awesome to have 2 talented PGs, but their strengths (scoring) are similar enough to make them ineffective when on the floor together. They overlap too much with what they do good/bad. I just hope the coaching staff figures out the right balance.

[KuruptedCav]

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Thats the problem, we are aspiring to be a team that on the best of circumstances never even went to the Conference championship game. Dame/McCollum are great players, but somebody on the Cavs needs to be play initiators like both of them are. Neither Garland/Sexton have shown the can be anything close to that yet, certainly not Collin.

The other example of it working is Toronto with Lowry/Fred but both of those players are very good passers and play great defense, it also helps that in order for that team to succeed---they had great defensive help at every other positions so that they could run 2 PGs on the floor. Kawhi, OG, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol.

The Cavs dont have anything close to that roster. They wont work together and I just prefer the Cavs not waste the time to try and get a failed experiment to work.

I’m by no means advocating 2PGs or two small guards, etc. I’m saying that writing the book on Sexton as a 6th man is premature.

It could be Sexton, it could be Garland, heck, they could draft Cunningham and having either Sexton or Garland at SG fits perfectly. I don’t know.

I just can’t get behind a player’s value being diminished because either A) they aren’t doing something they aren’t being asked to do, or B) the front office drafted similar player profiles in subsequent years. The draft is weird, last year was downright brutal, I suspect they stuck to their board.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[jbk1234]

Is there a stat somewhere that takes into account feeds without finishes? It would be interesting to see if Sexton really is that bad of a passer or if we've just had that bad of people attempting shots afterwards.

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

So best case scenario, Sexton is the poor man's version of a guy most of the league views as overpaid and the third option on a true contender?

Why are we voluntarily putting ourselves in that position again? Years before we have to make a decision?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You can't pay a guy who's never been net positive on the court, according to every advanced stat that exists, big dollars with the hope that he grows into that contract.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Revenged25]

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

So best case scenario, Sexton is the poor man's version of a guy most of the league views as overpaid and the third option on a true contender?

Why are we voluntarily putting ourselves in that position again? Years before we have to make a decision?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You can't pay a guy who's never been net positive on the court, according to every advanced stat that exists, big dollars with the hope that he grows into that contract.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Well we'll get to see how he does this year before that decision even needs to be made right? Also I do agree that extending him after this season is foolish unless he just has a breakout year. Something like 25/4/3 on similar/better efficiency with passable defense.

[Stillwater]

Thats the problem, we are aspiring to be a team that on the best of circumstances never even went to the Conference championship game. Dame/McCollum are great players, but somebody on the Cavs needs to be play initiators like both of them are. Neither Garland/Sexton have shown the can be anything close to that yet, certainly not Collin.

The other example of it working is Toronto with Lowry/Fred but both of those players are very good passers and play great defense, it also helps that in order for that team to succeed---they had great defensive help at every other positions so that they could run 2 PGs on the floor. Kawhi, OG, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol.

The Cavs dont have anything close to that roster. They wont work together and I just prefer the Cavs not waste the time to try and get a failed experiment to work.

Really all hinges on what they do with DG this season because he is not the level of elite playmaker that is going to push better players out of the rotation to make way for him if they are really trying to win this year so it should be fairly obvious within a couple of weeks after the season starts as too just what the orgs goals are unless they are giving JBB full reign control out the gate to experiment at his leisure.

Sure but the Cavs didnt draft him #5 overall to not play/start him and give him every chance to succeed. He is def. in their future plans its just how can they get creative with him and Sexton to maximize both players effectiveness.

When they were on the floor together last year you could tell Garland would be passive and almost get out of Sextons way. He would just do a lot of standing around because he didnt know how to best play with him. Then around mid-season they made some changes and staggered their playing time more and subbed Sexton out halfway though the 1st qtr. You could instantly tell Garland was then more comfortable with just him being out there.

He took control more as the primary ball handler and looked more confident with Sexton out of the way. Thats why Im saying I think its awesome to have 2 talented PGs, but their strengths (scoring) are similar enough to make them ineffective when on the floor together. They overlap too much with what they do good/bad. I just hope the coaching staff figures out the right balance.

I agree they took Garland for more reasons than being the bpa guard at 5 in a decent draft and that they do need too see if it waa the right choice but i highly disagree they are committed to retaining his services without significant improvement against grown men from last year and given the bad fit , the fact Sexton has improved so fast and there are other wings with high upside etc
I think there is a good chance dg gets a lot of starting pg minutes this season early on and if he is struggling he wont get the entire season to continue to tank any upside trade value he had unless this org is still wanting to go full tank despite the odds killing them 2 drafts in s row.
Imo dg is crafty and has a smooth game but hes maybe not cut out for this level. Hope i am wrong.

[Revenged25]

Also don't forget the Cavs were more than happy to give up on top 5 picks in the past if they thought it would benefit the team, especially with LeBron coming back. If Sexton outperforms Garland to a significant or even that Garland just doesn't take another step, I wouldn't be surprised if they brought in another youngish PG to play ahead of him and hope he develops.

Although I would be concerned of potential distractions and the cost to sign him, I think Lonzo Ball would be a great fit next to Sexton. Low usage PG with good size, defensive ability, and passing. Let him run the offense and defend the better guard while Sexton is used more as a primary scoring role.

Also given how the Pelicans just drafted Kira Lewis Jr., I wouldn't be surprised they did it with the idea that they wouldn't be extending Ball. So if the season starts out with Garland struggling, I think it would behoove the Cavs to look into the cost to trade for him and what a possible extension would look like. If it would only cost Exum and some level of protected 1st/seconds and a reasonable extension, something along 14-17 mil/year range, then I think it would be a great pick-up.

Lonzo/Garland
Sexton/KPJ/Windler
Okoro/Cedi/Windler
Love/Nance
Drummond/McGee

[JonFromVA]

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Thats the problem, we are aspiring to be a team that on the best of circumstances never even went to the Conference championship game. Dame/McCollum are great players, but somebody on the Cavs needs to be play initiators like both of them are. Neither Garland/Sexton have shown the can be anything close to that yet, certainly not Collin.

The other example of it working is Toronto with Lowry/Fred but both of those players are very good passers and play great defense, it also helps that in order for that team to succeed---they had great defensive help at every other positions so that they could run 2 PGs on the floor. Kawhi, OG, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol.

The Cavs dont have anything close to that roster. They wont work together and I just prefer the Cavs not waste the time to try and get a failed experiment to work.

How old were Dame, CJ, Lowry, and Van Vleet when they actually seemed valuable in the NBA?

I don't know what our young players are going to ultimately be. I just know it takes time to find out.

At this point in their career, it's about flashes of talent, and not stagnating.

As for the Cavs, their goal right now isn't to construct a championship contender - it's to collect assets, develop players, identify talent, and look for trades that can help improve the team or sort out fit and needs.

We are like the 2013/2014 Cavs that traded for Andrew Bynum Spencer Hawes, and Luol Deng because they thought they just needed a talent upgrade and could go somewhere. Well, we eventually did thanks to crazy lottery luck and a Heat meltdown, but when we won that championship only Kyrie, Delly, and Tristan were left from that team.

And that's hardly unique.

The road to a championship via a rebuild is rarely a straight line of collecting and adding talent.

If you could redo the Waiters draft, wouldn't you take Lillard given the chance?

[Revenged25]

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Thats the problem, we are aspiring to be a team that on the best of circumstances never even went to the Conference championship game. Dame/McCollum are great players, but somebody on the Cavs needs to be play initiators like both of them are. Neither Garland/Sexton have shown the can be anything close to that yet, certainly not Collin.

The other example of it working is Toronto with Lowry/Fred but both of those players are very good passers and play great defense, it also helps that in order for that team to succeed---they had great defensive help at every other positions so that they could run 2 PGs on the floor. Kawhi, OG, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol.

The Cavs dont have anything close to that roster. They wont work together and I just prefer the Cavs not waste the time to try and get a failed experiment to work.

How old were Dame, CJ, Lowry, and Van Vleet when they actually seemed valuable in the NBA?

I don't know what our young players are going to ultimately be. I just know it takes time to find out.

At this point in their career, it's about flashes of talent, and not stagnating.

As for the Cavs, their goal right now isn't to construct a championship contender - it's to collect assets, develop players, identify talent, and look for trades that can help improve the team or sort out fit and needs.

We are like the 2013/2014 Cavs that traded for Andrew Bynum Spencer Hawes, and Luol Deng because they thought they just needed a talent upgrade and could go somewhere. Well, we eventually did thanks to crazy lottery luck and a Heat meltdown, but when we won that championship only Kyrie, Delly, and Tristan were left from that team.

And that's hardly unique.

The road to a championship via a rebuild is rarely a straight line of collecting and adding talent.

If you could redo the Waiters draft, wouldn't you take Lillard given the chance?

Using hindsight, obviously you take Dame, but if that's the case then everything else changes too, the Cavs might not have even gotten LeBron back. Honestly there are a lot of picks that could've been made better. Klay over TT even. Could you imagine an Irving/Klay backcourt? Pretty sure that would've worked out well then in 2012 they could've possibly gotten someone like Drummond at #5 if they were still that bad, though they might've been a little bit better with the Irving/Klay backcourt.

[JonFromVA]

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.

So best case scenario, Sexton is the poor man's version of a guy most of the league views as overpaid and the third option on a true contender?

Why are we voluntarily putting ourselves in that position again? Years before we have to make a decision?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You can't pay a guy who's never been net positive on the court, according to every advanced stat that exists, big dollars with the hope that he grows into that contract.

You certainly can if said player is trending up. Collin's NetRtg was -3.3 last season and -7.9 as a rook.

Anyway, this is all a ramification of how Dan Gilbert runs the team. When the decisions get the toughest is when you really need the best talent evaluators and decision makers in control, or a rebuild can easily de-rail. Not just an owner playing playing fantasy basketball of real-life.

But if Collin was Lillard, he'd be starting his Senior year at Weber St and nobody would be questioning his NBA skills.

[JonFromVA]

Thats the problem, we are aspiring to be a team that on the best of circumstances never even went to the Conference championship game. Dame/McCollum are great players, but somebody on the Cavs needs to be play initiators like both of them are. Neither Garland/Sexton have shown the can be anything close to that yet, certainly not Collin.

The other example of it working is Toronto with Lowry/Fred but both of those players are very good passers and play great defense, it also helps that in order for that team to succeed---they had great defensive help at every other positions so that they could run 2 PGs on the floor. Kawhi, OG, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol.

The Cavs dont have anything close to that roster. They wont work together and I just prefer the Cavs not waste the time to try and get a failed experiment to work.

How old were Dame, CJ, Lowry, and Van Vleet when they actually seemed valuable in the NBA?

I don't know what our young players are going to ultimately be. I just know it takes time to find out.

At this point in their career, it's about flashes of talent, and not stagnating.

As for the Cavs, their goal right now isn't to construct a championship contender - it's to collect assets, develop players, identify talent, and look for trades that can help improve the team or sort out fit and needs.

We are like the 2013/2014 Cavs that traded for Andrew Bynum Spencer Hawes, and Luol Deng because they thought they just needed a talent upgrade and could go somewhere. Well, we eventually did thanks to crazy lottery luck and a Heat meltdown, but when we won that championship only Kyrie, Delly, and Tristan were left from that team.

And that's hardly unique.

The road to a championship via a rebuild is rarely a straight line of collecting and adding talent.

If you could redo the Waiters draft, wouldn't you take Lillard given the chance?

Using hindsight, obviously you take Dame, but if that's the case then everything else changes too, the Cavs might not have even gotten LeBron back. Honestly there are a lot of picks that could've been made better. Klay over TT even. Could you imagine an Irving/Klay backcourt? Pretty sure that would've worked out well then in 2012 they could've possibly gotten someone like Drummond at #5 if they were still that bad, though they might've been a little bit better with the Irving/Klay backcourt.

Oh, I'm not hitting the button on the way-back machine that hard, I'm just saying we picked Dion because we thought he fit better with Kyrie as a complimentary ball-handler but with the size to play SG.

Sometimes drafting for fit doesn't work out.

Rather than drafting Jarrett Culver because we thought he'd provide some playmaking and fit better with Collin, we took the guy with Lillard-like upside.

Sometimes drafting BPA doesn't work out.

But these were 19 year olds, not 4 year college players.

[Stillwater]

Thats the problem, we are aspiring to be a team that on the best of circumstances never even went to the Conference championship game. Dame/McCollum are great players, but somebody on the Cavs needs to be play initiators like both of them are. Neither Garland/Sexton have shown the can be anything close to that yet, certainly not Collin.

The other example of it working is Toronto with Lowry/Fred but both of those players are very good passers and play great defense, it also helps that in order for that team to succeed---they had great defensive help at every other positions so that they could run 2 PGs on the floor. Kawhi, OG, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol.

The Cavs dont have anything close to that roster. They wont work together and I just prefer the Cavs not waste the time to try and get a failed experiment to work.

How old were Dame, CJ, Lowry, and Van Vleet when they actually seemed valuable in the NBA?

I don't know what our young players are going to ultimately be. I just know it takes time to find out.

At this point in their career, it's about flashes of talent, and not stagnating.

As for the Cavs, their goal right now isn't to construct a championship contender - it's to collect assets, develop players, identify talent, and look for trades that can help improve the team or sort out fit and needs.

We are like the 2013/2014 Cavs that traded for Andrew Bynum Spencer Hawes, and Luol Deng because they thought they just needed a talent upgrade and could go somewhere. Well, we eventually did thanks to crazy lottery luck and a Heat meltdown, but when we won that championship only Kyrie, Delly, and Tristan were left from that team.

And that's hardly unique.

The road to a championship via a rebuild is rarely a straight line of collecting and adding talent.

If you could redo the Waiters draft, wouldn't you take Lillard given the chance?

Using hindsight, obviously you take Dame, but if that's the case then everything else changes too, the Cavs might not have even gotten LeBron back. Honestly there are a lot of picks that could've been made better. Klay over TT even. Could you imagine an Irving/Klay backcourt? Pretty sure that would've worked out well then in 2012 they could've possibly gotten someone like Drummond at #5 if they were still that bad, though they might've been a little bit better with the Irving/Klay backcourt.

Not sold there is any way you can say one player would have had success here since they did elsewhere but using the logic there Dame would not have made sense with Kyrie any more than Waiters did BUT them miscalculating and passing up on high level role players in forwards and centers like the swingman Ross or the elite athlete in Barnes or the freak of nature in Dre in the same draft in favor of a 6th man in college is a testament to how poorly this org has scouted outside their top targets in this case which was Beal who they failed to move up for and settled on the 2nd guard on their board not having a single sg on the roster instead of taking the bpa which clearly was not Dion

[Revenged25]

How old were Dame, CJ, Lowry, and Van Vleet when they actually seemed valuable in the NBA?

I don't know what our young players are going to ultimately be. I just know it takes time to find out.

At this point in their career, it's about flashes of talent, and not stagnating.

As for the Cavs, their goal right now isn't to construct a championship contender - it's to collect assets, develop players, identify talent, and look for trades that can help improve the team or sort out fit and needs.

We are like the 2013/2014 Cavs that traded for Andrew Bynum Spencer Hawes, and Luol Deng because they thought they just needed a talent upgrade and could go somewhere. Well, we eventually did thanks to crazy lottery luck and a Heat meltdown, but when we won that championship only Kyrie, Delly, and Tristan were left from that team.

And that's hardly unique.

The road to a championship via a rebuild is rarely a straight line of collecting and adding talent.

If you could redo the Waiters draft, wouldn't you take Lillard given the chance?

Using hindsight, obviously you take Dame, but if that's the case then everything else changes too, the Cavs might not have even gotten LeBron back. Honestly there are a lot of picks that could've been made better. Klay over TT even. Could you imagine an Irving/Klay backcourt? Pretty sure that would've worked out well then in 2012 they could've possibly gotten someone like Drummond at #5 if they were still that bad, though they might've been a little bit better with the Irving/Klay backcourt.

Not sold there is any way you can say one player would have had success here since they did elsewhere but using the logic there Dame would not have made sense with Kyrie any more than Waiters did BUT them miscalculating and passing up on high level role players in forwards and centers like the swingman Ross or the elite athlete in Barnes or the freak of nature in Dre in the same draft in favor of a 6th man in college is a testament to how poorly this org has scouted outside their top targets in this case which was Beal who they failed to move up for and settled on the 2nd guard on their board not having a single sg on the roster instead of taking the bpa which clearly was not Dion

I agree with your overall sentiment just pointing out using hindsight the way he did was poor. I agree with you though that in 2012 I wanted Beal/Dre/Barnes in that order as not only were they great players they would've also fit with needs on the roster. In 2011 I was actually wanting Irving + Leonard. I though Leonard had a ton of potential, was touted as a good defensive player coming out, and would be a great running mate with Irving in a uptempo offense.

[Stillwater]

Using hindsight, obviously you take Dame, but if that's the case then everything else changes too, the Cavs might not have even gotten LeBron back. Honestly there are a lot of picks that could've been made better. Klay over TT even. Could you imagine an Irving/Klay backcourt? Pretty sure that would've worked out well then in 2012 they could've possibly gotten someone like Drummond at #5 if they were still that bad, though they might've been a little bit better with the Irving/Klay backcourt.

Not sold there is any way you can say one player would have had success here since they did elsewhere but using the logic there Dame would not have made sense with Kyrie any more than Waiters did BUT them miscalculating and passing up on high level role players in forwards and centers like the swingman Ross or the elite athlete in Barnes or the freak of nature in Dre in the same draft in favor of a 6th man in college is a testament to how poorly this org has scouted outside their top targets in this case which was Beal who they failed to move up for and settled on the 2nd guard on their board not having a single sg on the roster instead of taking the bpa which clearly was not Dion

I agree with your overall sentiment just pointing out using hindsight the way he did was poor. I agree with you though that in 2012 I wanted Beal/Dre/Barnes in that order as not only were they great players they would've also fit with needs on the roster. In 2011 I was actually wanting Irving + Leonard. I though Leonard had a ton of potential, was touted as a good defensive player coming out, and would be a great running mate with Irving in a uptempo offense.

I remember being a little surprised at TT going 4th

[jbk1234]

How old were Dame, CJ, Lowry, and Van Vleet when they actually seemed valuable in the NBA?

I don't know what our young players are going to ultimately be. I just know it takes time to find out.

At this point in their career, it's about flashes of talent, and not stagnating.

As for the Cavs, their goal right now isn't to construct a championship contender - it's to collect assets, develop players, identify talent, and look for trades that can help improve the team or sort out fit and needs.

We are like the 2013/2014 Cavs that traded for Andrew Bynum Spencer Hawes, and Luol Deng because they thought they just needed a talent upgrade and could go somewhere. Well, we eventually did thanks to crazy lottery luck and a Heat meltdown, but when we won that championship only Kyrie, Delly, and Tristan were left from that team.

And that's hardly unique.

The road to a championship via a rebuild is rarely a straight line of collecting and adding talent.

If you could redo the Waiters draft, wouldn't you take Lillard given the chance?

Using hindsight, obviously you take Dame, but if that's the case then everything else changes too, the Cavs might not have even gotten LeBron back. Honestly there are a lot of picks that could've been made better. Klay over TT even. Could you imagine an Irving/Klay backcourt? Pretty sure that would've worked out well then in 2012 they could've possibly gotten someone like Drummond at #5 if they were still that bad, though they might've been a little bit better with the Irving/Klay backcourt.

Not sold there is any way you can say one player would have had success here since they did elsewhere but using the logic there Dame would not have made sense with Kyrie any more than Waiters did BUT them miscalculating and passing up on high level role players in forwards and centers like the swingman Ross or the elite athlete in Barnes or the freak of nature in Dre in the same draft in favor of a 6th man in college is a testament to how poorly this org has scouted outside their top targets in this case which was Beal who they failed to move up for and settled on the 2nd guard on their board not having a single sg on the roster instead of taking the bpa which clearly was not Dion

I'm really not sure Ross, Barnes or Drummond qualify as good rebuilding pieces or have done anything in the league that makes me regret passing on them.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[jbk1234]

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.

So best case scenario, Sexton is the poor man's version of a guy most of the league views as overpaid and the third option on a true contender?

Why are we voluntarily putting ourselves in that position again? Years before we have to make a decision?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You can't pay a guy who's never been net positive on the court, according to every advanced stat that exists, big dollars with the hope that he grows into that contract.

You certainly can if said player is trending up. Collin's NetRtg was -3.3 last season and -7.9 as a rook.

Anyway, this is all a ramification of how Dan Gilbert runs the team. When the decisions get the toughest is when you really need the best talent evaluators and decision makers in control, or a rebuild can easily de-rail. Not just an owner playing playing fantasy basketball of real-life.

But if Collin was Lillard, he'd be starting his Senior year at Weber St and nobody would be questioning his NBA skills.

And if that progression stops, you just paid a net negative player a ton of money. You'll have a difficult time getting off that contract and you can find yourself in a situation like the Kings where you're watching a guy you want to keep walk.

Extensions, particularly rookie extensions, rarely benefit the team giving them. Unless the player is willing to take a significant discount, or the player is elite, you almost always pay more than you would've if you let the player test the market and matched.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[LivingLegend]

Using hindsight, obviously you take Dame, but if that's the case then everything else changes too, the Cavs might not have even gotten LeBron back. Honestly there are a lot of picks that could've been made better. Klay over TT even. Could you imagine an Irving/Klay backcourt? Pretty sure that would've worked out well then in 2012 they could've possibly gotten someone like Drummond at #5 if they were still that bad, though they might've been a little bit better with the Irving/Klay backcourt.

Not sold there is any way you can say one player would have had success here since they did elsewhere but using the logic there Dame would not have made sense with Kyrie any more than Waiters did BUT them miscalculating and passing up on high level role players in forwards and centers like the swingman Ross or the elite athlete in Barnes or the freak of nature in Dre in the same draft in favor of a 6th man in college is a testament to how poorly this org has scouted outside their top targets in this case which was Beal who they failed to move up for and settled on the 2nd guard on their board not having a single sg on the roster instead of taking the bpa which clearly was not Dion

I'm really not sure Ross, Barnes or Drummond qualify as good rebuilding pieces or have done anything in the league that makes me regret passing on them.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I mean, during that time, Barnes was easily the better prospect and he was very highly regarded. Instead the Cavs decided to take a 6th man hahaha wow I can't believe how bad that was.

I also loved Terrance Ross coming out of Washington I believe it was. His college highlight tape made me giddy