Cavs F.A. 2020

[Stillwater]

Using hindsight, obviously you take Dame, but if that's the case then everything else changes too, the Cavs might not have even gotten LeBron back. Honestly there are a lot of picks that could've been made better. Klay over TT even. Could you imagine an Irving/Klay backcourt? Pretty sure that would've worked out well then in 2012 they could've possibly gotten someone like Drummond at #5 if they were still that bad, though they might've been a little bit better with the Irving/Klay backcourt.

Not sold there is any way you can say one player would have had success here since they did elsewhere but using the logic there Dame would not have made sense with Kyrie any more than Waiters did BUT them miscalculating and passing up on high level role players in forwards and centers like the swingman Ross or the elite athlete in Barnes or the freak of nature in Dre in the same draft in favor of a 6th man in college is a testament to how poorly this org has scouted outside their top targets in this case which was Beal who they failed to move up for and settled on the 2nd guard on their board not having a single sg on the roster instead of taking the bpa which clearly was not Dion

I'm really not sure Ross, Barnes or Drummond qualify as good rebuilding pieces or have done anything in the league that makes me regret passing on them.


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no way of knowing given they were not picked by the Cavs but all 3 have had better production than DIon.

[Stillwater]

Not sold there is any way you can say one player would have had success here since they did elsewhere but using the logic there Dame would not have made sense with Kyrie any more than Waiters did BUT them miscalculating and passing up on high level role players in forwards and centers like the swingman Ross or the elite athlete in Barnes or the freak of nature in Dre in the same draft in favor of a 6th man in college is a testament to how poorly this org has scouted outside their top targets in this case which was Beal who they failed to move up for and settled on the 2nd guard on their board not having a single sg on the roster instead of taking the bpa which clearly was not Dion

I'm really not sure Ross, Barnes or Drummond qualify as good rebuilding pieces or have done anything in the league that makes me regret passing on them.


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I mean, during that time, Barnes was easily the better prospect and he was very highly regarded. Instead the Cavs decided to take a 6th man hahaha wow I can't believe how bad that was.

I also loved Terrance Ross coming out of Washington I believe it was. His college highlight tape made me giddy

Ross was never going 4th unfortunately Barnes should have easily had he not crumbled on nat tv when Kendall marshal got hurt and Barnes had to rely on creating for himself or getting feeds from a scrub back up pg ...sorry for the rant but I lost a ton of money etc...damnit
Ross was clearly the best fit next to Irving had they wanted to pick for fit, but aside from the concerns of not playing at 100% effort (which still exists to some degree) Drummond was clearly the bpa at 4 and he has backed it up every season with his insane rebounding ability.
It just goes to show that none of them turned into perennial all star caliber players despite Dre having the best chance for it each season but neither did MKG Waiters or TRobb.
But where you are drafted and how you are developed is huge , which is why many of these prospects could have been busts here or beasts elsewhere or visa versa I mean Lillard could have easily struggled playing with KI. Samer as DG struggles sharing the court with Sexton and tbh Sexton should have struggled playing with DG but still got some which is even more reason to be confident in Sexton long term in CLE

[jbk1234]

I'm really not sure Ross, Barnes or Drummond qualify as good rebuilding pieces or have done anything in the league that makes me regret passing on them.


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I mean, during that time, Barnes was easily the better prospect and he was very highly regarded. Instead the Cavs decided to take a 6th man hahaha wow I can't believe how bad that was.

I also loved Terrance Ross coming out of Washington I believe it was. His college highlight tape made me giddy

Ross was never going 4th unfortunately Barnes should have easily had he not crumbled on nat tv when Kendall marshal got hurt and Barnes had to rely on creating for himself or getting feeds from a scrub back up pg ...sorry for the rant but I lost a ton of money etc...damnit
Ross was clearly the best fit next to Irving had they wanted to pick for fit, but aside from the concerns of not playing at 100% effort (which still exists to some degree) Drummond was clearly the bpa at 4 and he has backed it up every season with his insane rebounding ability.
It just goes to show that none of them turned into perennial all star caliber players despite Dre having the best chance for it each season but neither did MKG Waiters or TRobb.
But where you are drafted and how you are developed is huge , which is why many of these prospects could have been busts here or beasts elsewhere or visa versa I mean Lillard could have easily struggled playing with KI. Samer as DG struggles sharing the court with Sexton and tbh Sexton should have struggled playing with DG but still got some which is even more reason to be confident in Sexton long term in CLE

Ross and Barnes have been on multiple teams. Barnes played on a team that *developed* Green, Klay and Curry. The Raptors have *developed* late picks into all stars. I don't think teams should pull the plug on young players while on their rookie contracts, but sometimes guys just aren't as good as they're billed.

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[Stillwater]

I mean, during that time, Barnes was easily the better prospect and he was very highly regarded. Instead the Cavs decided to take a 6th man hahaha wow I can't believe how bad that was.

I also loved Terrance Ross coming out of Washington I believe it was. His college highlight tape made me giddy

Ross was never going 4th unfortunately Barnes should have easily had he not crumbled on nat tv when Kendall marshal got hurt and Barnes had to rely on creating for himself or getting feeds from a scrub back up pg ...sorry for the rant but I lost a ton of money etc...damnit
Ross was clearly the best fit next to Irving had they wanted to pick for fit, but aside from the concerns of not playing at 100% effort (which still exists to some degree) Drummond was clearly the bpa at 4 and he has backed it up every season with his insane rebounding ability.
It just goes to show that none of them turned into perennial all star caliber players despite Dre having the best chance for it each season but neither did MKG Waiters or TRobb.
But where you are drafted and how you are developed is huge , which is why many of these prospects could have been busts here or beasts elsewhere or visa versa I mean Lillard could have easily struggled playing with KI. Samer as DG struggles sharing the court with Sexton and tbh Sexton should have struggled playing with DG but still got some which is even more reason to be confident in Sexton long term in CLE

Ross and Barnes have been on multiple teams. Barnes played on a team that *developed* Green, Klay and Curry. The Raptors have *developed* late picks into all stars. I don't think teams should pull the plug on young players while on their rookie contracts, but sometimes guys just aren't as good as they're billed.

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I think Barnes was overrated as a shooter too some degree so sure but its not like people didnt recognize he needed fed to feast esp after how bad he was against Kansas without his pg but his main sell was always defense and a solid starter upside which he still is doing.
Ross has been a consistent starter most of his career in Toronto and Orlando exceeding expectations in many areas.
Dre has been a beast for 8 years as the leading rebounder in the league on **** rosters... Not sure how that isnt light years better than DIons career.
Yeah all of them just like most lottery prospects are somewhat overrated by fans expecting another Lebron James or KG or another success story and hyped up by the media etc.

[KuruptedCav]

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

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That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




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So best case scenario, Sexton is the poor man's version of a guy most of the league views as overpaid and the third option on a true contender?

Why are we voluntarily putting ourselves in that position again? Years before we have to make a decision?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You can't pay a guy who's never been net positive on the court, according to every advanced stat that exists, big dollars with the hope that he grows into that contract.

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That’s the league. He literately just put up a higher PER than Buddy Hield and Fred VanVleet; who both both signed in the $22-$24 mil range; and neither of which comes with the upside of being only 21 years old.

If he makes another jump similar to this season; he’ll get paid big money. If he doesn’t, he won’t. But making the call today that he shouldn’t is premature.


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[jbk1234]

That’s just it. He isn’t the lead guard. His job isn’t to get players engaged and rack up assists or create opportunities.

You are cracking on him for not doing what he’s not supposed to be doing. CJ McCollum is a solid comp, he averages 3.1 assists for his career and takes 20 shots per game. CJ also took a while to become passable as a defensive player. And nobody is knocking his $29 million per year contract.

If he makes another efficiency jump similar to the one he made from his rookie to sophomore years, I want him taking 20 shots per game. Yeah, the Cavs will be paying the Young Bull.




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So best case scenario, Sexton is the poor man's version of a guy most of the league views as overpaid and the third option on a true contender?

Why are we voluntarily putting ourselves in that position again? Years before we have to make a decision?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You can't pay a guy who's never been net positive on the court, according to every advanced stat that exists, big dollars with the hope that he grows into that contract.

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That’s the league. He literately just put up a higher PER than Buddy Hield and Fred VanVleet; who both both signed in the $22-$24 mil range; and neither of which comes with the upside of being only 21 years old.

If he makes another jump similar to this season; he’ll get paid big money. If he doesn’t, he won’t. But making the call today that he shouldn’t is premature.


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What's premature is making a large financial commitment to a player who isn't currently a net positive on the court years before you have to. The Kings can't trade Heild without other teams wanting compensation now. Van Fleet is top 10 among SG at RPM. Sexton is 65th among PGs.

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[Stillwater]

Im not at all a fan of RPM as an individual stat of any significant end result .
RPM doesn’t care how scores are accumulated, only who’s on the floor when it happens.
I also think rpm going up because you play on a loaded roster for example also discredited the value of rpm as any one players actual impact. Sextons RPM would be significantly higher playing on a contender for example.

[jbk1234]

Im not at all a fan of RPM as an individual stat of any significant end result .
RPM doesn’t care how scores are accumulated, only who’s on the floor when it happens.
I also think rpm going up because you play on a loaded roster for example also discredited the value of rpm as any one players actual impact. Sextons RPM would be significantly higher playing on a contender for example.

No individual stat is perfect, and if RPM differs markedly from the box PM, further inquiry is warranted. Also, it's a tool for measuring on the court value so you need to consider things like role, usage, and minutes. I don't consider Vanfleet a top ten SG.

But RPM takes into consideration who you play against and who is on the floor with you. So, Sexton actually gets credit for the fact that Garland, whose BPM is even lower, negatively impacts Sexton's BPM while being out there with him.

As far as how scoring is accumulated, both for and against the team, the entire point of the stat is to consider the player's overall impact on team's performance. It serves as a check against guys who fill up a stat sheet individually, but don't really improve their teams ability to win games. The team who scores more points than the other team wins. It doesn't matter how. The score remains the same.

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[Stillwater]

^ yeah during a rebuilding roster with many developing players or players with no established chemistry I dont rely on those types of stats as a measuring tool at all.

[JonFromVA]

So best case scenario, Sexton is the poor man's version of a guy most of the league views as overpaid and the third option on a true contender?

Why are we voluntarily putting ourselves in that position again? Years before we have to make a decision?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You can't pay a guy who's never been net positive on the court, according to every advanced stat that exists, big dollars with the hope that he grows into that contract.

You certainly can if said player is trending up. Collin's NetRtg was -3.3 last season and -7.9 as a rook.

Anyway, this is all a ramification of how Dan Gilbert runs the team. When the decisions get the toughest is when you really need the best talent evaluators and decision makers in control, or a rebuild can easily de-rail. Not just an owner playing playing fantasy basketball of real-life.

But if Collin was Lillard, he'd be starting his Senior year at Weber St and nobody would be questioning his NBA skills.

And if that progression stops, you just paid a net negative player a ton of money. You'll have a difficult time getting off that contract and you can find yourself in a situation like the Kings where you're watching a guy you want to keep walk.

Extensions, particularly rookie extensions, rarely benefit the team giving them. Unless the player is willing to take a significant discount, or the player is elite, you almost always pay more than you would've if you let the player test the market and matched.

Sure, but there are ramifications to playing "hardball" with a supposed core player.

[jbk1234]

You certainly can if said player is trending up. Collin's NetRtg was -3.3 last season and -7.9 as a rook.

Anyway, this is all a ramification of how Dan Gilbert runs the team. When the decisions get the toughest is when you really need the best talent evaluators and decision makers in control, or a rebuild can easily de-rail. Not just an owner playing playing fantasy basketball of real-life.

But if Collin was Lillard, he'd be starting his Senior year at Weber St and nobody would be questioning his NBA skills.

And if that progression stops, you just paid a net negative player a ton of money. You'll have a difficult time getting off that contract and you can find yourself in a situation like the Kings where you're watching a guy you want to keep walk.

Extensions, particularly rookie extensions, rarely benefit the team giving them. Unless the player is willing to take a significant discount, or the player is elite, you almost always pay more than you would've if you let the player test the market and matched.

Sure, but there are ramifications to playing "hardball" with a supposed core player.

Yeah, Kyrie got over it the moment the Cavs offered him a five year max when F.A. started.

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[jbk1234]

^ yeah during a rebuilding roster with many developing players or players with no established chemistry I dont rely on those types of stats as a measuring tool at all.

That's your prerogative, but there's a good chance you're hand waving away some pretty important red flags.

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[JonFromVA]

And if that progression stops, you just paid a net negative player a ton of money. You'll have a difficult time getting off that contract and you can find yourself in a situation like the Kings where you're watching a guy you want to keep walk.

Extensions, particularly rookie extensions, rarely benefit the team giving them. Unless the player is willing to take a significant discount, or the player is elite, you almost always pay more than you would've if you let the player test the market and matched.

Sure, but there are ramifications to playing "hardball" with a supposed core player.

Yeah, Kyrie got over it the moment the Cavs offered him a five year max when F.A. started.

lol, I don't think that's how that went down. If anything Kyrie refused to sign an extension, and it surprised a lot of people when he did without drama on the first night of free-agency - but maybe Dan and Griff gave him one of those guarantees that if he ever wanted out, they'd trade him. I have never even heard a rumor to that extent, but at least it would explain why we were so quick to make a deal rather than wait for a better deal when he had 2 years left on his contract.

The rumor that did make the rounds is that Kyrie threatened to go have surgery (something he actually did eventually need, but for unknown reasons he didn't take care of it when the season ended) and then rehabilitate for the rest of his contract.

Either way, teams have lost a lot of leverage with players and it meant we ended up with a lottery ticket rather than a lottery pick.

[JonFromVA]

^ yeah during a rebuilding roster with many developing players or players with no established chemistry I dont rely on those types of stats as a measuring tool at all.

That's your prerogative, but there's a good chance you're hand waving away some pretty important red flags.

If the Cavs are paying any attention to the numbers, they'd notice our defense has been abhorrent when Collin has been on the floor these past two seasons and whatever he contributes on offense pales to what we're giving up on defense.

So, they've been trying to add some height and rim protection and now the best wing defender in college ball, to try to patch the problem - but that shouldn't be necessary to avoid the sort of defensive deficits we're seeing.

The thing is sucking on defense is a right-of-passage for young players. My main concern is that Collin needs to improve his awareness on both sides of the ball, and while that should improve with experience, it's not something that can just be fixed in a gym.

It's really not a high-bar given his offensive production and the roster for the Cavs to be better on the floor with Collin than with him off the floor.

If he doesn't? We'll argue a lot about whether we should offer him an extension, but it's still on the Cavs evaluators to try to project down the line. I have about as much confidence in that as I have in a coin flip.

[jbk1234]

Sure, but there are ramifications to playing "hardball" with a supposed core player.

Yeah, Kyrie got over it the moment the Cavs offered him a five year max when F.A. started.

lol, I don't think that's how that went down. If anything Kyrie refused to sign an extension, and it surprised a lot of people when he did without drama on the first night of free-agency - but maybe Dan and Griff gave him one of those guarantees that if he ever wanted out, they'd trade him. I have never even heard a rumor to that extent, but at least it would explain why we were so quick to make a deal rather than wait for a better deal when he had 2 years left on his contract.

The rumor that did make the rounds is that Kyrie threatened to go have surgery (something he actually did eventually need, but for unknown reasons he didn't take care of it when the season ended) and then rehabilitate for the rest of his contract.

Either way, teams have lost a lot of leverage with players and it meant we ended up with a lottery ticket rather than a lottery pick.

He wouldn't sign the extension with Mike Brown as a coach. The Cavs fired Mike Brown. He signed a max deal.

As far as the trade demand, that occurred because his name was in trade talks and he's an egomaniac. It really had nothing to do with his contract.

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[Stillwater]

^ yeah during a rebuilding roster with many developing players or players with no established chemistry I dont rely on those types of stats as a measuring tool at all.

That's your prerogative, but there's a good chance you're hand waving away some pretty important red flags.

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There are certainly plenty of red flags for all the young potential core players and if you are trying to develop Sexton or Garland for example into being a pass first guard or even to play within a system that allows all 5 players equal or near equal threat level impact you are going to be disappointed but the reality is few NBA rosters work that way until they are a fine tuned motor and there is always differing levels of impact on both sides of the ball esp this early in a rebuild when in the case of one Collin Sexton is going into his third season having gone through the worst part of the rebuild with no fall back.
I dont carte about RPM stats at all I think they are overblown analytics

[jbk1234]

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[jbk1234]

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[LivingLegend]

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Why are the Cavs over here hellbent on aquiring 2nd round picks in 6-7 years from now lol

[LivingLegend]

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