Which Teams Got Better, Worse Or Remained Neutral

[MoneyTalks41890]

Thunder have the biggest delta here I’m pretty sure. If there was an award for how much worse a team got, they’re a lock.

That might be true but there is a method to that madness and okc is set up for a strong future.

SGA is going to be putting up cray numbers this season.

For sure and I’m a big proponent of the plan here. But it’s still pretty remarkable to see a team go from a 4 seed in the West to 30th in the ESPN rankings over the course of one offseason.

[wadenation305]

How did the Heat get better?

Marginal but better, we added two defenders at a position where the defense was weak while we did loose Crowder and DJJ was really mostly a non impact player against any team that had and big strong guys. Not a whole lot better yet but marginal gains. Gotta see how Herro and Bam come into the season, if Herro starts averaging 18-20 pts/game and Bam hit's three's and more mid range (which I totally think he is more than capable of) then we clearly got a lot better.

[JRoy]

Thunder have the biggest delta here I’m pretty sure. If there was an award for how much worse a team got, they’re a lock.

That might be true but there is a method to that madness and okc is set up for a strong future.

SGA is going to be putting up cray numbers this season.

For sure and I’m a big proponent of the plan here. But it’s still pretty remarkable to see a team go from a 4 seed in the West to 30th in the ESPN rankings over the course of one offseason.

Even a kick in the ass is a step in the right direction.

[Joshyjess]

When Hayward played well for Boston, he definitely helped them. Problem is that most of the time he was either injured, or coming back from an injury, so he really didn't help them very much (especially in the playoffs). On the other hand, The C's addressed two of their biggest weakness this off-season by picking up a much tougher inside presence at Center with Triston Thompson, and adding much needed scoring off the bench with Nesmith. They also got a more reliable backup PG with Teague.
I don't think the Celtics hit a home-run this off-season, but I do think they got better (besides the fact that both Tatum and Brown should actually benefit from Haywards absence.)

Hayward played 52 games in the regular season for the Celtics out of 72. It's hard to imagine that you wouldn't have been a worst team if he didn't play at all. I don't think adding Tristan Thompson, Teague and a rookie more than offsets losing a wing that averaged a very efficient 17 PPG. In fact, playing Thompson might actually make your team worse.

but how many of those games was Hayward actually fully healthy? Not very many. More often then not he was in a recovery phase. He did have some really good games for Boston, and so often we thought - He's back! Only to have something happen right after that.
As for Thompson and Teague, we will just have to wait and see how they perform. I do still believe that not having Hayward on the team will actually help Tatum and Brown develope even more.

[Feel_the_Heat15]

Fit is a bog deal. Richardson looked awful and Horford was abysmal. They acquired 3 point shooting wich is key in the modern NBA. I'm still amazed they were able to get rid of Horford's contract while upgrading the 2 and depth at the same time let alone improved cap flexability. Wish they could've moved Harris, but that contract is borderline untradeable.

I disagree about Horford being abysmal. He wasn't great but it's not like he was a negative impact player. He gave the 76ers good defense and offensively he was above average for a big man. 76ers problem wasn't just Horford "not fitting" with the team, they lacked spacing from almost everywhere. 76ers gave up great defensive players that were decent offensively for good offense and decent defense.

I assume this post was written without, you know, looking at analytics and FACTS. Embiid without Horford? Solid. Horford without Embiid? That was OK. Embiid and Horford together?

https://theathletic.com/1608073/2020/02/14/bodner-the-numbers-back-up-sending-al-horford-to-the-sixers-bench/

I f'n HATE when people on the GB make arguments with declarative statements that are DEVOID OF FACTS.

Do better.

Oh yeah, because Horford and Embiid are the only 2 players on the court for their team. Were the 76ers better without Horford playing at all? No. Just because Horford and Embiid weren't a fantastic pairing doesn't mean that downgrading talent-wise for a better pairing will make the team better.

[bebopdeluxe]

I disagree about Horford being abysmal. He wasn't great but it's not like he was a negative impact player. He gave the 76ers good defense and offensively he was above average for a big man. 76ers problem wasn't just Horford "not fitting" with the team, they lacked spacing from almost everywhere. 76ers gave up great defensive players that were decent offensively for good offense and decent defense.

I assume this post was written without, you know, looking at analytics and FACTS. Embiid without Horford? Solid. Horford without Embiid? That was OK. Embiid and Horford together?

https://theathletic.com/1608073/2020/02/14/bodner-the-numbers-back-up-sending-al-horford-to-the-sixers-bench/

I f'n HATE when people on the GB make arguments with declarative statements that are DEVOID OF FACTS.

Do better.

Oh yeah, because Horford and Embiid are the only 2 players on the court for their team. Were the 76ers better without Horford playing at all? No. Just because Horford and Embiid weren't a fantastic pairing doesn't mean that downgrading talent-wise for a better pairing will make the team better.

The Sixers - with Embiid, Simmons and Horford together - were FIVE POINTS lower per 100 possessions thn the worst offense inthe league last season. That is BRUTAL.

It is not just moving Horford. It is moving Harris to the 4 - where he had success with Doc in LA. It is about having a shooter in Green who at least provides spacing and gravity. Horford was shooting so horribly from 3 that teams were like, "go for it, bro".

Again - where is your STATISTICAL EVIDENCE to back up your statement that Horford was some kind of big loss for the team. Forget the ridiculous money you were now paying Horford to be the backup 5. You now have Howard giving you those minutes, while dramatically improving the spacing of the offense with Green and Harris at the 4 (who will also benefit tremendously from Doc's heavy pick-and-roll offense).

You are entitled to your opinion that the Sixers will be worse this season. I just don't see the statistical evidence or even the logic based on the changes that they made - in players and coaching staff - that support your position.

[Marrrcuss]

LOL @ the Lakers staying neutral. They essentially won the offseason after winning the chip, which is extremely rare. They replaced Rondo (34 yrs old), Howard (34 yrs yrs old), Green (33 yrs old), and McGee (33 yrs old) with Harrell (27 yrs old), Shroeder (27 yrs old), Matthews and Gasol.

Got a lot worse defensively imo. 3 of those 4 names you mentioned are liabilities come playoff time. Harrell and Dennis will shoulder a lot of the offensive burden from Lebron though during the regular season so he can coast more tbt those Cleveland 2.0 days. Matthews however was an excellent pickup.

I think every bit of help Lebron gets becomes magnified. Go look at the bolstered of "Playoff Rondo" in the finals. Understand there were many games we couldn't play Howard or McGee because they moved like they were stuck in quicksand. Danny Green played so well he got death threats from idiots.

I am a biased laker fan, but where did I lie?

[Marrrcuss]

LOL @ the Lakers staying neutral. They essentially won the offseason after winning the chip, which is extremely rare. They replaced Rondo (34 yrs old), Howard (34 yrs yrs old), Green (33 yrs old), and McGee (33 yrs old) with Harrell (27 yrs old), Shroeder (27 yrs old), Matthews and Gasol.

Got a lot worse defensively imo. 3 of those 4 names you mentioned are liabilities come playoff time. Harrell and Dennis will shoulder a lot of the offensive burden from Lebron though during the regular season so he can coast more tbt those Cleveland 2.0 days. Matthews however was an excellent pickup.

I think every bit of help Lebron gets becomes magnified. Go look at the bolstered of "Playoff Rondo" in the finals. Understand there were many games we couldn't play Howard or McGee because they moved like they were stuck in quicksand. Danny Green played so well he got death threats from idiots.

I am a biased laker fan, but where did I lie?

[Feel_the_Heat15]

I assume this post was written without, you know, looking at analytics and FACTS. Embiid without Horford? Solid. Horford without Embiid? That was OK. Embiid and Horford together?

https://theathletic.com/1608073/2020/02/14/bodner-the-numbers-back-up-sending-al-horford-to-the-sixers-bench/

I f'n HATE when people on the GB make arguments with declarative statements that are DEVOID OF FACTS.

Do better.

Oh yeah, because Horford and Embiid are the only 2 players on the court for their team. Were the 76ers better without Horford playing at all? No. Just because Horford and Embiid weren't a fantastic pairing doesn't mean that downgrading talent-wise for a better pairing will make the team better.

The Sixers - with Embiid, Simmons and Horford together - were FIVE POINTS lower per 100 possessions thn the worst offense inthe league last season. That is BRUTAL.

It is not just moving Horford. It is moving Harris to the 4 - where he had success with Doc in LA. It is about having a shooter in Green who at least provides spacing and gravity. Horford was shooting so horribly from 3 that teams were like, "go for it, bro".

Again - where is your STATISTICAL EVIDENCE to back up your statement that Horford was some kind of big loss for the team. Forget the ridiculous money you were now paying Horford to be the backup 5. You now have Howard giving you those minutes, while dramatically improving the spacing of the offense with Green and Harris at the 4 (who will also benefit tremendously from Doc's heavy pick-and-roll offense).

You are entitled to your opinion that the Sixers will be worse this season. I just don't see the statistical evidence or even the logic based on the changes that they made - in players and coaching staff - that support your position.

I wanted to stay away from a statistics argument since I'd inevitably win it but since you asked for it...

Horford's BPM for that season was 2.2 and he had win shares of 5.4. Seth Curry's BPM was 0.8 and he had win shares of 4.4.

Since you love on-offs so much I think you'll be glad to know that the Mavericks were worse WITH CURRY on the court than off while Horford made the 76ers better when he was on.

The 5-man lineup that Horford was most in(Embiid, Harris, Richardson, Simmons) had a net rating per 100 possessions of 8.4. The lineup that Seth Curry was most in(Doncic, Finney-Smith, Hardaway, Porzingis) had a net rating per 100 possessions of 6.6.

Hmm, maybe Horford wasn't the problem?

[bebopdeluxe]

Oh yeah, because Horford and Embiid are the only 2 players on the court for their team. Were the 76ers better without Horford playing at all? No. Just because Horford and Embiid weren't a fantastic pairing doesn't mean that downgrading talent-wise for a better pairing will make the team better.

The Sixers - with Embiid, Simmons and Horford together - were FIVE POINTS lower per 100 possessions thn the worst offense inthe league last season. That is BRUTAL.

It is not just moving Horford. It is moving Harris to the 4 - where he had success with Doc in LA. It is about having a shooter in Green who at least provides spacing and gravity. Horford was shooting so horribly from 3 that teams were like, "go for it, bro".

Again - where is your STATISTICAL EVIDENCE to back up your statement that Horford was some kind of big loss for the team. Forget the ridiculous money you were now paying Horford to be the backup 5. You now have Howard giving you those minutes, while dramatically improving the spacing of the offense with Green and Harris at the 4 (who will also benefit tremendously from Doc's heavy pick-and-roll offense).

You are entitled to your opinion that the Sixers will be worse this season. I just don't see the statistical evidence or even the logic based on the changes that they made - in players and coaching staff - that support your position.

I wanted to stay away from a statistics argument since I'd inevitably win it but since you asked for it...

Horford's BPM for that season was 2.2 and he had win shares of 5.4. Seth Curry's BPM was 0.8 and he had win shares of 4.4.

Since you love on-offs so much I think you'll be glad to know that the Mavericks were worse WITH CURRY on the court than off while Horford made the 76ers better when he was on.

The 5-man lineup that Horford was most in(Embiid, Harris, Richardson, Simmons) had a net rating per 100 possessions of 8.4. The lineup that Seth Curry was most in(Doncic, Finney-Smith, Hardaway, Porzingis) had a net rating per 100 possessions of 6.6.

Hmm, maybe Horford wasn't the problem?

How many minutes did the 5-man lineup that you present actually play together? Huh? We are talking about the effectiveness of Embiid and Simmons when Horford was on the floor - specifically Embiid and Horford. This doesn't take into account the lower offensive output of Harris at the 3, as well. There is a reason why Horford was benched - right? If they were ALL THAT, then Horford would have stayed in the starting lineup...right?

I am not sure why you are bringing up the 5-man lineups with Curry. It will be a completely different situation in Philadelphia - different lineups, different offenses.

[JB2]

LOL @ the Lakers staying neutral. They essentially won the offseason after winning the chip, which is extremely rare. They replaced Rondo (34 yrs old), Howard (34 yrs yrs old), Green (33 yrs old), and McGee (33 yrs old) with Harrell (27 yrs old), Shroeder (27 yrs old), Matthews and Gasol.

Got a lot worse defensively imo. 3 of those 4 names you mentioned are liabilities come playoff time. Harrell and Dennis will shoulder a lot of the offensive burden from Lebron though during the regular season so he can coast more tbt those Cleveland 2.0 days. Matthews however was an excellent pickup.

You mentioned "come playoff time" then named 2 guys who for half the playoffs were unplayable and a 3rd who's game was mediocre this past run.

Dwight's physicality/stength was a big asset in like 1.5 games against Nuggets. But Gasol is probably better suited to guard Jokic and Nurkic. That said, you gain a C who is an elite passer in Gasol and has 3 point range (whether or not he is deadly from there or not). Those alone make him more useful come playoff time but let's call swapping Dwight for Gasol equal. Gasol is new starter at 12-18ppg. Which btw Toronto was still playing him 25mpg last year.

Green was easily replaced by Matthews who has better defensive numbers last year and wasn't nearly as inconsistent from 3 as Danny Green was. That's a wash and at 20% of the price.

Javale, while he as elite height/length/speed for the C position, Motrezl is obviously a significantly more impactful player who can give you brute strength, intensity, a PnR threat, and a bull in the paint while scoring 15-20 any given night. Trez over McGee is a big improvement... and particularly for the regular season when AD and Bron are going to rest a lot. Even if he's not closing games come playoff time, that's fine. Neither was Javale or Dwight. But there is a chance he will close depending on matchups and possession.

Rondo will be missed for sure. Nobody in the NBA can replicate his IQ and savvy. But adding Schröder is a highly underrated defender and can give you 20 points a game. Was excellent off ball shooter and as CP3 said, DS is exactly the type of guy you want to go to battle with. He's going have so many easy looks with the attention Bron and AD get. Big upgrade but Rondo's passing instincts/abilities will be missed.

Btw, Lakers closing lineup last year come playoff time was almost always exclusively AD/Bron/KCP/Caruso + one more. Vogel can decide based on matchup who that 5th guy is: Dennis, Trez, Wes, Gasol, Keef, or Kuz. Not to mention THT's emergence. Willing to bet it's Wes or DS more often than not.

Yeah Lakers are great improved. Not sure how anybody could seriously call it neutral.

[Feel_the_Heat15]

The Sixers - with Embiid, Simmons and Horford together - were FIVE POINTS lower per 100 possessions thn the worst offense inthe league last season. That is BRUTAL.

It is not just moving Horford. It is moving Harris to the 4 - where he had success with Doc in LA. It is about having a shooter in Green who at least provides spacing and gravity. Horford was shooting so horribly from 3 that teams were like, "go for it, bro".

Again - where is your STATISTICAL EVIDENCE to back up your statement that Horford was some kind of big loss for the team. Forget the ridiculous money you were now paying Horford to be the backup 5. You now have Howard giving you those minutes, while dramatically improving the spacing of the offense with Green and Harris at the 4 (who will also benefit tremendously from Doc's heavy pick-and-roll offense).

You are entitled to your opinion that the Sixers will be worse this season. I just don't see the statistical evidence or even the logic based on the changes that they made - in players and coaching staff - that support your position.

I wanted to stay away from a statistics argument since I'd inevitably win it but since you asked for it...

Horford's BPM for that season was 2.2 and he had win shares of 5.4. Seth Curry's BPM was 0.8 and he had win shares of 4.4.

Since you love on-offs so much I think you'll be glad to know that the Mavericks were worse WITH CURRY on the court than off while Horford made the 76ers better when he was on.

The 5-man lineup that Horford was most in(Embiid, Harris, Richardson, Simmons) had a net rating per 100 possessions of 8.4. The lineup that Seth Curry was most in(Doncic, Finney-Smith, Hardaway, Porzingis) had a net rating per 100 possessions of 6.6.

Hmm, maybe Horford wasn't the problem?

How many minutes did the 5-man lineup that you present actually play together? Huh? We are talking about the effectiveness of Embiid and Simmons when Horford was on the floor - specifically Embiid and Horford. This doesn't take into account the lower offensive output of Harris at the 3, as well. There is a reason why Horford was benched - right? If they were ALL THAT, then Horford would have stayed in the starting lineup...right?

I am not sure why you are bringing up the 5-man lineups with Curry. It will be a completely different situation in Philadelphia - different lineups, different offenses.

They weren't just 5-man lineups, they were the most used 5-man lineups so nothing was cherry-picked like the stats you presented to me. We aren't talking about the effectiveness of Embiid and Simmons and whatever, we're talking about whether or not the 76ers got better this offseason.

Horford being benched doesn't mean Seth Curry on the 76ers>Horford on the 76ers. I brought up the 5-man lineups because they further support my opinion that Horford is a more valuable player than Seth Curry on the court.

Your only argument is fit but fit usually doesn't make up for a downgrade in talent. It's like saying that the Lakers should trade AD for Gallinari because Gallinari would be a better fit for them.

[stormi]

LOL @ the Lakers staying neutral. They essentially won the offseason after winning the chip, which is extremely rare. They replaced Rondo (34 yrs old), Howard (34 yrs yrs old), Green (33 yrs old), and McGee (33 yrs old) with Harrell (27 yrs old), Shroeder (27 yrs old), Matthews and Gasol.

Got a lot worse defensively imo. 3 of those 4 names you mentioned are liabilities come playoff time. Harrell and Dennis will shoulder a lot of the offensive burden from Lebron though during the regular season so he can coast more tbt those Cleveland 2.0 days. Matthews however was an excellent pickup.

You mentioned "come playoff time" then named 2 guys who for half the playoffs were unplayable and a 3rd who's game was mediocre this past run.

Dwight's physicality/stength was a big asset in like 1.5 games against Nuggets. But Gasol is probably better suited to guard Jokic and Nurkic. That said, you gain a C who is an elite passer in Gasol and has 3 point range (whether or not he is deadly from there or not). Those alone make him more useful come playoff time but let's call swapping Dwight for Gasol equal. Gasol is new starter at 12-18ppg. Which btw Toronto was still playing him 25mpg last year.

Green was easily replaced by Matthews who has better defensive numbers last year and wasn't nearly as inconsistent from 3 as Danny Green was. That's a wash and at 20% of the price.

Javale, while he as elite height/length/speed for the C position, Motrezl is obviously a significantly more impactful player who can give you brute strength, intensity, a PnR threat, and a bull in the paint while scoring 15-20 any given night. Trez over McGee is a big improvement... and particularly for the regular season when AD and Bron are going to rest a lot. Even if he's not closing games come playoff time, that's fine. Neither was Javale or Dwight. But there is a chance he will close depending on matchups and possession.

Rondo will be missed for sure. Nobody in the NBA can replicate his IQ and savvy. But adding Schröder is a highly underrated defender and can give you 20 points a game. Was excellent off ball shooter and as CP3 said, DS is exactly the type of guy you want to go to battle with. He's going have so many easy looks with the attention Bron and AD get. Big upgrade but Rondo's passing instincts/abilities will be missed.

Btw, Lakers closing lineup last year come playoff time was almost always exclusively AD/Bron/KCP/Caruso + one more. Vogel can decide based on matchup who that 5th guy is: Dennis, Trez, Wes, Gasol, Keef, or Kuz. Not to mention THT's emergence. Willing to bet it's Wes or DS more often than not.

Yeah Lakers are great improved. Not sure how anybody could seriously call it neutral.

I would give them neutral at best, definitely not improved if you want to consider functionality and scheme and not just "ppg". As great as the two stars were, the championship identity of the Lakers flowed through the veins of their defense (3rd ranked DRTG, 11th ranked ORTG). The switchability and length of Davis, Caruso, Rondo, Green, KCP etc were a hassle for teams to navigate and on the other end of the floor they limited turnovers by running the ball heavily through their stars and putting tertiary inflating pieces around them to space the floor, limit dribbles and make quick decisions. That won't be the same.

Rondo was invaluable on both sides of the ball. Dwight bought toughness, defending and quick impact off the bench and Green started every single game last season and his on/off rates were incredible due to his defensive presence.



Savvy and switchability were lost this offseason and replaced with marginal scoring improvements. Gasol is a nothing player in 2020. His athleticism is completely shot and he was a handicap against the Celtics all series long. Harrell is a big man Pat Bev, can't guard a soul and doesn't really bring anything besides a lob presence for Lebron. Dennis is a solid scorer, but his impact come playoff time will diminish when Lebron takes over the ball; and he'll be picked on defensively. I'd take last years roster to beat this one in a head to head.

[BlueSan]

Many teams became better.

Atlanta Hawks: Much Better
Boston Celtics: worse
Brooklyn Nets: Much Better
Charlotte Hornets: Better
Chicago Bulls: Worse
Cleveland Cavaliers: Neutral
Dallas Mavericks: neutral
Denver Nuggets: neutral
Detroit Pistons: worse
Golden State Warriors: much better
Houston Rockets: better - if keeping haden
Indiana Pacers: neutral
Los Angeles Clippers: Slightly Worse
Los Angeles Lakers: Better
Memphis Grizzlies: neutral
Miami Heat: neutral
Milwaukee Bucks: slightly better
Minnesota Timberwolves: Better
New Orleans Pelicans: Better
New York Knicks: Worse neutral
OKC Thunder: Much Worse
Orlando Magic: neutral
Philadelphia 76ers: neutral
Phoenix Suns: much Better
Portland Trailblazers: Better
Sacramento Kings: worse
San Antonio Spurs: Neutral
Toronto Raptors: slightly Worse
Utah Jazz: Neutral neutral
Washington Wizards: Better

[jazzfan1971]

These things are so hard to predict. For instance, I thought Ed Davis woudl be great for the Jazz last year. Was a warm turd instead.

Plus a lot of players will see some age regression. Will Joe Ingles lose half a step? Will it matter? So hard to predict.

Then injuries.... How many games will Conley miss? Hard to say.

Who will step up as a rookie? Who will bust? Every team has a couple young guys that are just bursting with potential.... But, most of those guys will never be difference makers. Some few will.... But, which? I think Jarrell Brantley looks like a potential star, but he has never hardly even seen the floor. So, my eyes don't give me the right info very often. I imagine most fans have the same problem evaluating their own young players as well.

Then chemistry. I'll take a shot at Atlanta. Most would look at those additions and say they definitely improved. But, they are building a roster with a bunch of defensive holes. It could really backfire. So hard to say.

But, I think I agree with the wisdom on the crowd here for the Jazz. Slightly improved. Mostly due to Favors.

[EireannX]

Many teams became better.

Minnesota Timberwolves: Slightly Better
New Orleans Pelicans: Better

I feel bad for New Jersey who didn’t rate a mention.

And what time are we looking at here? Like the Jazz get Bogdanovic back as well as signing Favors compared to the bubble. Which makes them significantly better now than then.

Or they signed Clarkson and Favors since the start of last season, also a massive bench upgrade.

But if you compare them to the trade deadline, when they had Clarkson and Bogdanovic active, then slight but decent upgrade in Favors.

[TrueFan420]

It’s the off season every team gets “better” but we will see who really got better