Giannis SIGNS

[coolhandluke121]

I mean let's be real, shouldn't they be talking about what teams should be on Steph's short trade demand list? If the Bucks hadn't traded so many picks for Jrue, they would probably be pretty high on that hypothetical list.

I'm not trying to litigate the Jrue trade again, but those people who dismissed the notion that the Bucks might have done better by saving those picks for a bigger opportunity are going to have some serious backtracking to do if Harden and then Steph both hit the trade market within months of the Jrue deal. Again, that's why you always insist on getting fair value for assets, except in the most pressing circumstances. Granted, getting Jrue to convince Giannis to sign might qualify, but all indications are that the only real demand he made is to continue investing in the team as much as possible and start paying the tax.

This is great and all and I agree with you to an extent every time you post it. It was a clear overpay and apparently (the news suggests at least) that the Bucks knew it was an overpay. But there was a small window for Giannis to sign the Supermax. And when that window opened, the only top 30 level player who was clearly available was Jrue Holiday. Not only does it appear that Giannis needed an acquisition like this to make the commitment, allowing a competitor to land Jrue instead, might have further cemented the idea in his mind that the deck was stacked against him in Milwaukee. Waiting for a Harden to demand out or a Steph to became available really wasn't an option. I think we can put this to rest.

There's no evidence that he demanded major changes though. He wanted Bogdanovic, Oladipo, or Beal, but he still signed even though they didn't get any of them (and failed to get one of them in one of the more embarrassing transactional failures in recent memory). The only thing we have evidence that he was concerned about was avoiding the luxury tax. Even after the collapse against Miami, he very publicly made declarations to the effect that he wasn't going to take the easy way out or be a malcontent. I'm at the point where I believe he would have extended as long as they spent the MLE and promised him they would pay the tax and do everything they can to make the team better.

You can't "put it to rest" with zero concrete evidence that Giannis needed a move like the Jrue trade to happen now. He has clearly been leaning strongly towards staying for a long time.

ETA: And a few posts later, someone points out that Giannis wanted Schroder and expressed concern to the front office when the Bucks didn't get him. The Lakers got him for Danny Green and #27.

[FlagsFlyForever]

Giannis made a dumb decision to sign in Milwaukee based on what Kawhi Leonard or Kyrie Irving value. He made the right decision for himself and his family based on what Giannis values.

[ReasonablySober]

I don't get it. (that video)

[raferfenix]

When Dennis Schroder was traded to the Los Angeles Lakers,
Antetokounmpo wanted reassurance from afar that even if the Bucks didn't
land the Oklahoma City Thunder guard, they had at least made a valiant effort.

Thanks for the ESPN Insider summary.

Does this part mean there was a scenario where Giannis would have happily extended if we would have acquired Schroder + Bogdan instead of Holiday? Or is that reading too much into it?

Schroder was dealt for Danny Green + #27.

OKC ultimately acquired George Hill from the Pelicans.

I suspect who we were including as cap filler with #24 was the sticking point for the Thunder in our offer for Schroder. We probably were offering Ersan and / or Wilson vs Hill, who has already jumped into a leadership role:

https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/2020/12/11/as-one-of-the-80s-kids-george-hill-jumps-into-leadership-role/

I forget where but remember reading in one of the new pieces that the Bucks were reticent to include Hill in the Holiday package and only included him at the end, and then eventually added an extra pick + an extra swap to seal the deal.

The Bucks definitely got the best overall player and Giannis extended, which was far from guaranteed!

That said, these alternative history scenarios seem like fodder to be debated for years to come depending on how things go from here.

[coolhandluke121]

When Dennis Schroder was traded to the Los Angeles Lakers,
Antetokounmpo wanted reassurance from afar that even if the Bucks didn't
land the Oklahoma City Thunder guard, they had at least made a valiant effort.

Thanks for the ESPN Insider summary.

Does this part mean there was a scenario where Giannis would have happily extended if we would have acquired Schroder + Bogdan instead of Holiday? Or is that reading too much into it?

Schroder was dealt for Danny Green + #27.

OKC ultimately acquired George Hill from the Pelicans.

I suspect who we were including as cap filler with #24 was the sticking point for the Thunder in our offer for Schroder. We probably were offering Ersan and / or Wilson vs Hill, who has already jumped into a leadership role:

https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/2020/12/11/as-one-of-the-80s-kids-george-hill-jumps-into-leadership-role/

I forget where but remember reading in one of the new pieces that the Bucks were reticent to include Hill in the Holiday package and only included him at the end, and then eventually added an extra pick + an extra swap to seal the deal.

The Bucks definitely got the best overall player and Giannis extended, which was far from guaranteed!

That said, these alternative history scenarios seem like fodder to be debated for years to come depending on how things go from here.

I don't like Schroder very much but damn, if they could have gotten him for Bledsoe/#24 or Hill/Ersan/#24 instead of making the Jrue trade and Giannis wanted him, that is really upsetting. It makes sense considering how much he likes international players. Damn. They'd still have all those picks to fart around with Harden trades, and who knows who else becomes available.

[SirChurros]

An aging roster? Our roster's average age is 26.9 and is like league average.

Some people are **** idiots.

[IrishRainbow]

Truly is like dollops of lamb shank sauce on a bed of hot Oakland Gyro Step fries.

That’s a great thing fwiw

[Bucksfan28]

Best DutchManFan voice: Happy Post Signing Day Giannis!

Read on Twitter

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I assume they think Steph is dumb for pursuing a new contract with the Ws.

I mean let's be real, shouldn't they be talking about what teams should be on Steph's short trade demand list? If the Bucks hadn't traded so many picks for Jrue, they would probably be pretty high on that hypothetical list.

I'm not trying to litigate the Jrue trade again, but those people who dismissed the notion that the Bucks might have done better by saving those picks for a bigger opportunity are going to have some serious backtracking to do if Harden and then Steph both hit the trade market within months of the Jrue deal. Again, that's why you always insist on getting fair value for assets, except in the most pressing circumstances. Granted, getting Jrue to convince Giannis to sign might qualify, but all indications are that the only real demand he made is to continue investing in the team as much as possible and start paying the tax.

disagree wholeheartedly. jrue is 30 this year. play this year and resign him.

in last year of giannis contract.....
jrue is 34
giannis is 30
middleton is 33

those are the perfect ages for championships and quite frankly when most good players play their most productive basketball. whatever slight fall off on athleticism and stat getting....they are less selfish, smarter, and improved in the ways of winning.

there is massive evidence to support this historically

[coolhandluke121]

I assume they think Steph is dumb for pursuing a new contract with the Ws.

I mean let's be real, shouldn't they be talking about what teams should be on Steph's short trade demand list? If the Bucks hadn't traded so many picks for Jrue, they would probably be pretty high on that hypothetical list.

I'm not trying to litigate the Jrue trade again, but those people who dismissed the notion that the Bucks might have done better by saving those picks for a bigger opportunity are going to have some serious backtracking to do if Harden and then Steph both hit the trade market within months of the Jrue deal. Again, that's why you always insist on getting fair value for assets, except in the most pressing circumstances. Granted, getting Jrue to convince Giannis to sign might qualify, but all indications are that the only real demand he made is to continue investing in the team as much as possible and start paying the tax.

disagree wholeheartedly. jrue is 30 this year. play this year and resign him.

in last year of giannis contract.....
jrue is 34
giannis is 30
middleton is 33

those are the perfect ages for championships and quite frankly when most good players break thru. whatever slight fall off on athleticism they are less selfish, smarter, and improved in the ways of winning.

there is massive evidence to support this historically

What does that have to do with the post you quoted at all? Are you saying Jrue is better than Harden or Steph? Did you see Shaffty's post about how Giannis wanted Schroder and expressed concern to the front office when they didn't get him?

[machu46]

When Dennis Schroder was traded to the Los Angeles Lakers,
Antetokounmpo wanted reassurance from afar that even if the Bucks didn't
land the Oklahoma City Thunder guard, they had at least made a valiant effort.

Thanks for the ESPN Insider summary.

Does this part mean there was a scenario where Giannis would have happily extended if we would have acquired Schroder + Bogdan instead of Holiday? Or is that reading too much into it?

Schroder was dealt for Danny Green + #27.

OKC ultimately acquired George Hill from the Pelicans.

I suspect who we were including as cap filler with #24 was the sticking point for the Thunder in our offer for Schroder. We probably were offering Ersan and / or Wilson vs Hill, who has already jumped into a leadership role:

https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/2020/12/11/as-one-of-the-80s-kids-george-hill-jumps-into-leadership-role/

I forget where but remember reading in one of the new pieces that the Bucks were reticent to include Hill in the Holiday package and only included him at the end, and then eventually added an extra pick + an extra swap to seal the deal.

The Bucks definitely got the best overall player and Giannis extended, which was far from guaranteed!

That said, these alternative history scenarios seem like fodder to be debated for years to come depending on how things go from here.

I don't like Schroder very much but damn, if they could have gotten him for Bledsoe/#24 or Hill/Ersan/#24 instead of making the Jrue trade and Giannis wanted him, that is really upsetting. It makes sense considering how much he likes international players. Damn. They'd still have all those picks to fart around with Harden trades, and who knows who else becomes available.

A couple thoughts:

1. Schroder is also on the record as saying Milwaukee is his favorite city in the NBA, so he almost certainly would have been happy to come here and sign an extension.

2. Even if we had swung a trade for Schroder instead of Holiday, I highly highly doubt we would have been serious players for Harden (or Steph if people actually think Steph might want out of Golden State). Especially considering that timing wise, Giannis likely would have signed the supermax before a Harden/Steph trade occurred, thus depreciating the value of the picks we would have available anyways.

3. I'm still pretty iffy on the Jrue trade because I think pretty much any rational person would agree it was an overpay. At the same time though, getting Jrue, who is probably a top 30 player in the NBA is just far more impactful than getting Schroder, who is arguably a starting caliber PG but might not be.

[PG Graveyard]

I assume they think Steph is dumb for pursuing a new contract with the Ws.

No because they have the next Giannis on their roster.

The spin from those guys has been comical. They are also going to unlock Wiggins stardom while obviously drafting another Giannis in next years draft.

[buckboy]

When Dennis Schroder was traded to the Los Angeles Lakers,
Antetokounmpo wanted reassurance from afar that even if the Bucks didn't
land the Oklahoma City Thunder guard, they had at least made a valiant effort.

Thanks for the ESPN Insider summary.

Does this part mean there was a scenario where Giannis would have happily extended if we would have acquired Schroder + Bogdan instead of Holiday? Or is that reading too much into it?

Schroder was dealt for Danny Green + #27.

OKC ultimately acquired George Hill from the Pelicans.

I suspect who we were including as cap filler with #24 was the sticking point for the Thunder in our offer for Schroder. We probably were offering Ersan and / or Wilson vs Hill, who has already jumped into a leadership role:

https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/2020/12/11/as-one-of-the-80s-kids-george-hill-jumps-into-leadership-role/

I forget where but remember reading in one of the new pieces that the Bucks were reticent to include Hill in the Holiday package and only included him at the end, and then eventually added an extra pick + an extra swap to seal the deal.

The Bucks definitely got the best overall player and Giannis extended, which was far from guaranteed!

That said, these alternative history scenarios seem like fodder to be debated for years to come depending on how things go from here.

I don't like Schroder very much but damn, if they could have gotten him for Bledsoe/#24 or Hill/Ersan/#24 instead of making the Jrue trade and Giannis wanted him, that is really upsetting. It makes sense considering how much he likes international players. Damn. They'd still have all those picks to fart around with Harden trades, and who knows who else becomes available.

Disagree on Schroder. The difference between Holiday and Schroder is way more than (in your first example) 2 pick swaps that will likely never happen, a late 20s first and that '27 pick (which is the only one I'm worried about).

And when I say that I'm mostly concerned about the immediate future. Our window is now. Schroder isn't helping us win anything now.

[coolhandluke121]

A couple thoughts:

1. Schroder is also on the record as saying Milwaukee is his favorite city in the NBA, so he almost certainly would have been happy to come here and sign an extension.

2. Even if we had swung a trade for Schroder instead of Holiday, I highly highly doubt we would have been serious players for Harden (or Steph if people actually think Steph might want out of Golden State). Especially considering that timing wise, Giannis likely would have signed the supermax before a Harden/Steph trade occurred, thus depreciating the value of the picks we would have available anyways.

3. I'm still pretty iffy on the Jrue trade because I think pretty much any rational person would agree it was an overpay. At the same time though, getting Jrue, who is probably a top 30 player in the NBA is just far more impactful than getting Schroder, who is arguably a starting caliber PG but might not be.

It doesn't have to be Steph or Harden though, although I think you might be underestimating what kind of offer the Bucks could make for one of them with Khris + picks. The point is just that Harden being available so soon after the Jrue trade shows that good players become available several times a year and you don't have to overpay dramatically for the first one that becomes available. Who knows who else will be available before the trade deadline? Embiid? Lillard? Beal? Booker?

Love Jrue but the real justification is getting Giannis to extend. If we have reason to believe he would have extended if they had just gotten Schroder, regardless of what roster weaknesses they would still need to address afterwards, that puts a huge damper on the Jrue trade. Hill/Ersan/#24 for Schroder also could have put the Bogdan deal back on in terms of having Bledsoe's contract to match his salary demands by the way.

[coolhandluke121]

Disagree on Schroder. The difference between Holiday and Schroder is way more than (in your first example) 2 pick swaps that will likely never happen, a late 20s first and that '27 pick (which is the only one I'm worried about).

And when I say that I'm mostly concerned about the immediate future. Our window is now. Schroder isn't helping us win anything now.

I think you're grossly overstating how far the team is from winning a title if you don't think expiring contracts + picks for Schroder helps them at all. And the picks (especially the ones after Giannis could opt out) would make a huge difference in making a competitive offer while trading Khris for Harden.

[SirChurros]

Schroder on this team means we're a worse team. And that is coming from someone who is one of the few Schroder fans on this board.

[Bigcat245]

A long time coming for my 1st post. Been lurking since the JS board days. I'm gonna make sweet love to my wife tonight and I shall scream, "Giannis!"

Same, but switch your wife for twirly and "Giannis!" for "I don't really get icing, can you explain it again?"

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

What does that have to do with the post you quoted at all? Are you saying Jrue is better than Harden or Steph? Did you see Shaffty's post about how Giannis wanted Schroder and expressed concern to the front office when they didn't get him?

my bad pal....i was reading your posts and nodding as i usually do when i saw you talking about a 2-3 year window. i think i kept reading on to the next one and clicked that one to respond. you know were in agreement most of the time i figured id debate that point with you. just that the current cast, as it relates to age.... is on a great timeline thru giannis now current deal

[machu46]

A couple thoughts:

1. Schroder is also on the record as saying Milwaukee is his favorite city in the NBA, so he almost certainly would have been happy to come here and sign an extension.

2. Even if we had swung a trade for Schroder instead of Holiday, I highly highly doubt we would have been serious players for Harden (or Steph if people actually think Steph might want out of Golden State). Especially considering that timing wise, Giannis likely would have signed the supermax before a Harden/Steph trade occurred, thus depreciating the value of the picks we would have available anyways.

3. I'm still pretty iffy on the Jrue trade because I think pretty much any rational person would agree it was an overpay. At the same time though, getting Jrue, who is probably a top 30 player in the NBA is just far more impactful than getting Schroder, who is arguably a starting caliber PG but might not be.

It doesn't have to be Steph or Harden though, although I think you might be underestimating what kind of offer the Bucks could make for one of them with Khris + picks. The point is just that Harden being available so soon after the Jrue trade shows that good players become available several times a year and you don't have to overpay dramatically for the first one that becomes available. Who knows who else will be available before the trade deadline? Embiid? Lillard? Beal? Booker?

Love Jrue but the real justification is getting Giannis to extend. If we have reason to believe he would have extended if they had just gotten Schroder, regardless of what roster weaknesses they would still need to address afterwards, that puts a huge damper on the Jrue trade. Hill/Ersan/#24 for Schroder also could have put the Bogdan deal back on in terms of having Bledsoe's contract to match his salary demands by the way.

To be more clear, I don't think we would have had the pieces for any of those guys. Jrue is roughly the best player we could have gotten IMO (unless we got someone that wasn't considered as good but exploded after we got him). I'd also say Beal is roughly the same caliber of player as Holiday though he is younger.

We'll see if those guys ever shake loose, but by all indications, Lillard and Beal are just as loyal to their teams as Giannis is to his. Maybe they get sick of coming up short at some point just like it could for Giannis, but it hasn't happened yet.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

if the target was jrue there as no need for schroder imo. best player available needs to be 100% the goal at this point