Knicks- Hornets PG

[DaGawd]

I remember at Duke people used to grow frustrated with watching RJ try to hero ball at times with Williamson having the hot hand.. He’s doing the same on the Knicks and sucking badly

[Juco24]

I wasn’t comfortable going to 30 mil for Gordon Hayward in free agency, but I think I was wrong there. A lot of our issues would be mitigated by his addition.

It's the Amare signing all over again that I'm so glad we didn't duplicate the same mistake over again. Hayward will not live up that contract... one or two seasons would have done nothing for us imo

[K_ick_God]

Your expectations for him is unrealistic though. He would have to drop like 60 points a game for us to be in the playoffs. He has no help. Somebody has to step it up. It can’t just be Randle by himself every single night.

Not like I completely disagree but I do think you're missing one thing: He's a guy who needs 1st scorer touches and freedom to give you good production. He takes up a lot, with bad D (not about stats right now, about just whether he is truly a good defender, and I think way too many lapses), and makes mistakes.

Yeah if the Knicks had him and Hayward, that's probably a playoff team that can win some games and that'd be fun. But doesn't mean it's really the framework of a very good team.

Randle doesn’t need 1st scorer touches to be good. He only gets those touches cause he’s the only one who can score and pass on the team.
I don’t think Randle’s defense is as bad as you say. Stats say otherwise and so does my eyes.

Besides last night, it’s hard to complain about Randle’s production on both ends this season so far really. But whatever, agree to disagree.

I guess it's what you put focus on. Once RJ stopped shooting, he had some good drives that showed persistence during a tough stretch, including some nice interior passes. Meanwhile the Hornets were dunking on us as Randle quit and stood there watching.

That is a little unfair and confirmation bias and all that. Believe me I'm thinking about those things too. I realize there's some bias.

But I also believe these things to be self-evident. I'd rather have the guy who persists and has a bad shooting night, and has a good package of IQ, size and team ball (at age 20) than the guy who makes a terrible pass to Knox and then blames Knox lol. Or stands there watching (along with an exhausted Mitch) as people dunk the ball easily.

I think Randle is a player you jettison and RJ is a guy who, despite his big struggles, you keep working with. You do need to reduce his minutes and load.

Eventually you will need a guy who can score like Randle's production. But it's not all about just production, it's whether the player is 2-way, cares about winning, and HOW he gets his points. What is so great about Randle's O? He's hard to stop when he gets inside and for a guy that big, his strength and handle and passing are pretty good. But his jumper is clearly not very good. He makes a lot of bad decisions, he takes bad shots. I just think he is kind of crappy.

[K_ick_God]

I remember at Duke people used to grow frustrated with watching RJ try to hero ball at times with Williamson having the hot hand.. He’s doing the same on the Knicks and sucking badly

He shoots a little bit more than he should.

[K_ick_God]

I guess I'm making also an unprovable conclusion. I don't think Randle cares about winning games.

Can't prove it. But see subtle signs of it. And that matters. Lazy passes, bad D.

[Handledatruth]

You guys are killing RJ for missing open and rhythm 3s, but giving Randle a pass for refusing to shoot them every offensive set. Just watch how many times Randle and Payton go into a pick and roll. And then watch Randle catch it at the top of the key wide open but continues to dribble. Other bigs in the league from the 4 and 5 position shoot this shoot immediately and that opens up the floor. Randle could easily break that zone by letting it fly and will not do it. So in the end Mitch gets nullified and RJ is regulated to a catch and shoot player. We don't want Payton shooting it which only leaves Rivers/Bullock to close out on.

Unfortunately the only solution to is run Randle at the 5 in spurts but our defense and rebounding during those periods are embarrassing to watch. When you think about it we could have resigned Melo to do exactly what Randle is doing right now. What's Al Harrington doing these days?

[HEZI]

RJ is playing like a taller Payton right now. Cant shoot from anywhere on the court, all their points are on drives, tunnel vision. Its costing us games when the guy who was supposed to be our best player is one of the worst.

This is like when everyone blamed Melo for the Knicks not being good when our second best scorer was crazy JR Smith. Who is out there to help Randle?

Don't disrespect Payton like that. Payton has a 50% TS%. RJ is at 43% TS%

[3toheadmelo]

I remember at Duke people used to grow frustrated with watching RJ try to hero ball at times with Williamson having the hot hand.. He’s doing the same on the Knicks and sucking badly

For most of that season I did not want the Knicks to draft him. I ended up talking myself into him once we found out we were picking 3rd cause that’s what Knicks fans do... but man he hasn’t really changed how I felt about him initially. His flaws are still the same. His handle is still trash, he gets tunnel vision and is always missing wide open players, and can’t forget he can’t shoot at all.

[Gravy]

RJ is playing like a taller Payton right now. Cant shoot from anywhere on the court, all their points are on drives, tunnel vision. Its costing us games when the guy who was supposed to be our best player is one of the worst.

This is like when everyone blamed Melo for the Knicks not being good when our second best scorer was crazy JR Smith. Who is out there to help Randle?

FACTS

I'm not blaming Randle for the Knicks not being good. But I don't think RJ is a taller Elfrid, although I won't disagree that he's playing poorly and in a similar way to Elf lol.

Obviously this is about where you think things are going. Like Card Shark. I think RJ can be part of a really good team and a big part. I think Randle is just a guy who can put up points. There's a big difference.

Randle is productive though yeah. Productive is not always what you should look at as far as the future though.

And talent isn't all that it's about either. It's of course about winning. RJ doesn't need to score 23 PPG to help us win. And Randle's 20 PPG is not the thing of a future high quality team ... IMO.

If "RJ doesn't need to score 23 PPG to help us win" why arent we winning with him playing the most minutes in the league?

So Randle is productive but it does not matter, but RJ is productive and that matters? Every good player in the league has flaws. The facts are every stat says Randle improves this team greatly while RJ is dragging it down. I dont know what future team there is where Frank and RJ are leading them to the Finals when they cant get us more than 15 wins.

[DaGawd]

I remember at Duke people used to grow frustrated with watching RJ try to hero ball at times with Williamson having the hot hand.. He’s doing the same on the Knicks and sucking badly

For most of that season I did not want the Knicks to draft him. I ended up talking myself into him once we found out we were picking 3rd cause that’s what Knicks fans do... but man he hasn’t really changed how I felt about him initially. His flaws are still the same. His handle is still trash, he gets tunnel vision and is always missing wide open players, and can’t forget he can’t shoot at all.

Same here and I was/am actually somewhat of a Duke fan. I watched basically every game that year and did not see the hype that had RJ highly regarded coming out of as high school. I was left underwhelmed and hoped maybe he’d shine thru in the NBA in a more wide open fast paced game. Looks like he just isn’t very good

[j4remi]

Read on Twitter

Recap’s up. I’m sniffing out some trends. Knox finally saw his aggression pay off. IQ will see results soon, I suspect. Mitch has gotten really good at little poke steals without reach-in fouls. I even saw an adjustment from Barrett, though his ceiling is capped until he can hit the wide open three. There’s some room for optimism fam.

[j4remi]

Read on Twitter

Recap’s up. I’m sniffing out some trends. Knox finally saw his aggression pay off. IQ will see results soon, I suspect. Mitch has gotten really good at little poke steals without reach-in fouls. I even saw an adjustment from Barrett, though his ceiling is capped until he can hit the wide open three. There’s some room for optimism fam.

[G_K_F]

What y’all think we can get in a Frank trade? Seems like he’s always gonna be hurt.

What y’all think we can get in a Randle trade? Seems like he’s just inna contract year. Time to sell on whatever high his value is on.

Nothing outside this board. Go to the T&T board, not one team wants Randle for really anything. He doesn't make the contending teams better or doesn't fit their modern NBA style, and the tanking teams don't want him because he's either blocking a young player or is over their age threshold / money threshold. The longer we wait the better chance for a catastrophic injury on a team that cares to be competitive and thinks Randle can play small ball center (or they have a stretch 5 ... which is really just Dallas, Minn and maybe Denver). But the more we wait the more he'll regress to the mean on his long 2 shooting and his turnovers will continue to spike.

I'd take any competent NBA (point) guard on a not Wall / Westbrick contract. Rozier would be insane but Charlotte isn't that stupid, Jalen Brunson and Dwight Powells rotting corpse would be fine by me maybe they throw a pick swap in as well and we tie our fortune completely to the Dallas injury report.

If you listen to certain people on this forum, Randle is nearly untradeable and a future star.

[Handledatruth]

FACTS

I'm not blaming Randle for the Knicks not being good. But I don't think RJ is a taller Elfrid, although I won't disagree that he's playing poorly and in a similar way to Elf lol.

Obviously this is about where you think things are going. Like Card Shark. I think RJ can be part of a really good team and a big part. I think Randle is just a guy who can put up points. There's a big difference.

Randle is productive though yeah. Productive is not always what you should look at as far as the future though.

And talent isn't all that it's about either. It's of course about winning. RJ doesn't need to score 23 PPG to help us win. And Randle's 20 PPG is not the thing of a future high quality team ... IMO.

If "RJ doesn't need to score 23 PPG to help us win" why arent we winning with him playing the most minutes in the league?

So Randle is productive but it does not matter, but RJ is productive and that matters? Every good player in the league has flaws. The facts are every stat says Randle improves this team greatly while RJ is dragging it down. I dont know what future team there is where Frank and RJ are leading them to the Finals when they cant get us more than 15 wins.

The combination of Randle, RJ, and Payton does not work offensively. The only way it would work is if you get consistent scoring from Payton, but all you have to do to stop Payton is go into a 2-3. RJ is not a catch and shoot player like Knox, so I'm not sure why we treat him as such. He moves the ball, he plays defense, he rebounds, and he moves well without the ball. He just happens to be incompatible with the current starters. Put RJ in a lineup with at least 3 other catch and shoot guys and I we'll truly see what he is capable of.

[Reign23]

didn't read the PG thread yet. maybe there was a reason, Quickley was a projected 2nd rounder by every single mock draft?

[robillionaire]

I remember at Duke people used to grow frustrated with watching RJ try to hero ball at times with Williamson having the hot hand.. He’s doing the same on the Knicks and sucking badly

For most of that season I did not want the Knicks to draft him. I ended up talking myself into him once we found out we were picking 3rd cause that’s what Knicks fans do... but man he hasn’t really changed how I felt about him initially. His flaws are still the same. His handle is still trash, he gets tunnel vision and is always missing wide open players, and can’t forget he can’t shoot at all.

Same here and I was/am actually somewhat of a Duke fan. I watched basically every game that year and did not see the hype that had RJ highly regarded coming out of as high school. I was left underwhelmed and hoped maybe he’d shine thru in the NBA in a more wide open fast paced game. Looks like he just isn’t very good

The hope was that he would become a serviceable shooter. His shot was bad as a rookie but at 32% you're thinking okay, he can work on it and get close to league average of 35-36% and he would be a beast! Not only did that not happen but he's shooting 18% from 3, and because teams are running the zone he can't get anything going elsewhere with a putrid 36.5 FG% overall. If he doesn't fix his shot, he is a bust. There's a high possibility at this point that he will be a bust.

I would try to package him with Randle to the pelicans, maybe they would be interested in reuniting him with Zion.

[robillionaire]

I remember at Duke people used to grow frustrated with watching RJ try to hero ball at times with Williamson having the hot hand.. He’s doing the same on the Knicks and sucking badly

For most of that season I did not want the Knicks to draft him. I ended up talking myself into him once we found out we were picking 3rd cause that’s what Knicks fans do... but man he hasn’t really changed how I felt about him initially. His flaws are still the same. His handle is still trash, he gets tunnel vision and is always missing wide open players, and can’t forget he can’t shoot at all.

I had hope that with his age and frame combined with his noted work ethic would eventually lead to him overcoming a lot of those flaws but unfortunately he's only getting worse.

[Gravy]

I'm not blaming Randle for the Knicks not being good. But I don't think RJ is a taller Elfrid, although I won't disagree that he's playing poorly and in a similar way to Elf lol.

Obviously this is about where you think things are going. Like Card Shark. I think RJ can be part of a really good team and a big part. I think Randle is just a guy who can put up points. There's a big difference.

Randle is productive though yeah. Productive is not always what you should look at as far as the future though.

And talent isn't all that it's about either. It's of course about winning. RJ doesn't need to score 23 PPG to help us win. And Randle's 20 PPG is not the thing of a future high quality team ... IMO.

If "RJ doesn't need to score 23 PPG to help us win" why arent we winning with him playing the most minutes in the league?

So Randle is productive but it does not matter, but RJ is productive and that matters? Every good player in the league has flaws. The facts are every stat says Randle improves this team greatly while RJ is dragging it down. I dont know what future team there is where Frank and RJ are leading them to the Finals when they cant get us more than 15 wins.

The combination of Randle, RJ, and Payton does not work offensively. The only way it would work is if you get consistent scoring from Payton, but all you have to do to stop Payton is go into a 2-3. RJ is not a catch and shoot player like Knox, so I'm not sure why we treat him as such. He moves the ball, he plays defense, he rebounds, and he moves well without the ball. He just happens to be incompatible with the current starters. Put RJ in a lineup with at least 3 other catch and shoot guys and I we'll truly see what he is capable of.

A solid pg that can shoot would help the whole team, most posters didnt want that because Cade is coming...but whatever.

The only catch and shoot guys we have available now are Knox, Bullock, and Quickley if he gets his head right.

[mpharris36]

Read on Twitter

remember when elfird payton hit the rim on a wide open alley oop?

sad that pass had a better shot at going in then the brick floater he threw up in the 1st qtr.

[Handledatruth]

If "RJ doesn't need to score 23 PPG to help us win" why arent we winning with him playing the most minutes in the league?

So Randle is productive but it does not matter, but RJ is productive and that matters? Every good player in the league has flaws. The facts are every stat says Randle improves this team greatly while RJ is dragging it down. I dont know what future team there is where Frank and RJ are leading them to the Finals when they cant get us more than 15 wins.

The combination of Randle, RJ, and Payton does not work offensively. The only way it would work is if you get consistent scoring from Payton, but all you have to do to stop Payton is go into a 2-3. RJ is not a catch and shoot player like Knox, so I'm not sure why we treat him as such. He moves the ball, he plays defense, he rebounds, and he moves well without the ball. He just happens to be incompatible with the current starters. Put RJ in a lineup with at least 3 other catch and shoot guys and I we'll truly see what he is capable of.

A solid pg that can shoot would help the whole team, most posters didnt want that because Cade is coming...but whatever.

The only catch and shoot guys we have available now are Knox, Bullock, and Quickley if he gets his head right.

Rivers too when he stops pump faking, but we are definitely missing Burks, Obi, and Frank that could help with this. It's crazy we have 6 players on the team that are not catch and shoot players at all, and 5 of 6 get the most minutes. Obviously Noel and Mitch get a pass for being in this group for now until Obi starts playing the 5.