Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

[ZOMG]

So, I decided to do some advanced statistical analysis of what I was seeing. My preconceived notion watching the offense was Lauri is spoon-fed his shots, and a laughable amount are wide open. He hasn't created for anyone else, and while he is a black hole, his great efficiency makes that okay (to a certain extent). But not someone worth a contract of 20+ million a year, even at this efficiency.

Step 1: Use Tracking stats to determine how many of Lauri's looks are wide open, compare to the rest of the starting unit as a reference.

Percentage of shots considered "Wide Open": Defender more than 6 feet away from the shooter

Coby White: 28%
Zach Lavine: 18%
Patrick Williams: 32%
Lauri Mark: 41%
Wendell Carter Jr: 20%

Ok, so this confirms it. Almost almost half of Lauri's looks are wide, wide, wide open. And we know that Lauri isn't breaking ankles and get 6 feet of space off the dribble, so the offensive system and other players are getting him wide open looks. And he's hitting them right now.

Step 2: Assist % (Percentage of a team's assists made by a player when he is on the floor)

Coby White: 24%
Zach Lavine: 24%
Patrick Williams: 6%
Lauri Mark: 5%
Wendell Carter Jr: 13%

This one is pretty damning. He essentially is a black hole, not really interested in getting teammates the ball. Once it gets to him, he shoots it, or passes it back out. He isn't creating for anyone else. Again, not sure how you can pay 20+ million for that.

Weird take. I can assure you that if Lauri passed up any of those WIDE open looks he got, he'd get an earful from Donovan. The team (including Lauri) works hard to get those looks, they're not to be wasted.

The Bulls have abandoned some of the more hard core analytics principles of last season ("no midrange shots"), but they're still playing in the NBA in 2021, and that means taking open threes without a second thought - especially when you're shooting 40%.

So when Lauri gets an obvious chance to score, he's gonna try to do it. That's literally his job. But as for him being a "black hole" overall, nothing could be further from the truth. He's been one of the players staying true to Donovan's "paint is great" principle - essentially, driving and kicking out to a perimeter shooter. He does it but often ends up getting the hockey assist. Nothing wrong with that - the Bulls score.

[PaKii94]

So, I decided to do some advanced statistical analysis of what I was seeing. My preconceived notion watching the offense was Lauri is spoon-fed his shots, and a laughable amount are wide open. He hasn't created for anyone else, and while he is a black hole, his great efficiency makes that okay (to a certain extent). But not someone worth a contract of 20+ million a year, even at this efficiency.

Step 1: Use Tracking stats to determine how many of Lauri's looks are wide open, compare to the rest of the starting unit as a reference.

Percentage of shots considered "Wide Open": Defender more than 6 feet away from the shooter

Coby White: 28%
Zach Lavine: 18%
Patrick Williams: 32%
Lauri Mark: 41%
Wendell Carter Jr: 20%

Ok, so this confirms it. Almost almost half of Lauri's looks are wide, wide, wide open. And we know that Lauri isn't breaking ankles and get 6 feet of space off the dribble, so the offensive system and other players are getting him wide open looks. And he's hitting them right now.

Step 2: Assist % (Percentage of a team's assists made by a player when he is on the floor)

Coby White: 24%
Zach Lavine: 24%
Patrick Williams: 6%
Lauri Mark: 5%
Wendell Carter Jr: 13%

This one is pretty damning. He essentially is a black hole, not really interested in getting teammates the ball. Once it gets to him, he shoots it, or passes it back out. He isn't creating for anyone else. Again, not sure how you can pay 20+ million for that.

We saw Lauri create more yesterday when he was utilized more. Also when you have a big man shooter at 65% TS, usually you're going to end the plays with him getting up an open shot, not pass out for an inferior look.

I don't agree with the first part, I don't think he's shown any kind of elite passing or shot creation for others with much consistency.

As for the 2nd part, I strongly agree. Lauri is shooting at an elite level, and the Bulls SHOULD be funneling him shots. And that's good.

I think my point is what kind of financial value do you place on an ELITE shooter, but a guy that isn't giving much else? Because it isn't happening from a creation standpoint, a defensive standpoint, a rebounding standpoint, etc. And if you getting a guy 40% of his shots as completely WIDE open, can you find his value with a much less costly player?

I think for Lauri the hierarchy goes like this:
-3 point shots
-drives to the rim
-creation attempts for himself/others

Last year he was barely getting enough utilization to get past the 3 point shot step. This year they are finally giving him utilization with his drives. The next step is utilize him more (in the sense that he gets touches) to give him opportunity to create for others.

Last night he got that opportunity slightly. He got double teamed which lead to the assist to Thad. And then he was given the opportunity to bring the ball up the floor and get the transition assist to Lavine.

He's obviously not going to create much if all of his touches (last year) are just open looks from 3.


---

The second part I mentioned the discrepancy between 2pt shots and 3pt shots. Lauri with the position he plays will always get open 3 point shots, and that will always drive the distribution towards open shots overall.

I like to look at the flip side. 40% of his play is also tight to very tight 2 point attempts. You can't disregard that. Look at it in comparison to Lavine:

Lauri -
53.6% open 3s
38.1% tight 2s

Lavine-
36.7% open 3s
35% tight 2s

Lauri is still generating buckets on tough 2s but I agree he gets a higher volume of open looks from 3. That's why I do think his shooting can be sustained.

[PaKii94]

So, I decided to do some advanced statistical analysis of what I was seeing. My preconceived notion watching the offense was Lauri is spoon-fed his shots, and a laughable amount are wide open. He hasn't created for anyone else, and while he is a black hole, his great efficiency makes that okay (to a certain extent). But not someone worth a contract of 20+ million a year, even at this efficiency.

Step 1: Use Tracking stats to determine how many of Lauri's looks are wide open, compare to the rest of the starting unit as a reference.

Percentage of shots considered "Wide Open": Defender more than 6 feet away from the shooter

Coby White: 28%
Zach Lavine: 18%
Patrick Williams: 32%
Lauri Mark: 41%
Wendell Carter Jr: 20%

Ok, so this confirms it. Almost almost half of Lauri's looks are wide, wide, wide open. And we know that Lauri isn't breaking ankles and get 6 feet of space off the dribble, so the offensive system and other players are getting him wide open looks. And he's hitting them right now.

Step 2: Assist % (Percentage of a team's assists made by a player when he is on the floor)

Coby White: 24%
Zach Lavine: 24%
Patrick Williams: 6%
Lauri Mark: 5%
Wendell Carter Jr: 13%

This one is pretty damning. He essentially is a black hole, not really interested in getting teammates the ball. Once it gets to him, he shoots it, or passes it back out. He isn't creating for anyone else. Again, not sure how you can pay 20+ million for that.

You realize he plays the 4, right?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

He does?

On the other end of the spectrum, Draymond Green assists 33% of the total GSW assists on the floor. You can go through starting power forwards, Lauri comes up very low on assist %.

For me, it's about how much he is bringing to the table, and what that cost is like. I still haven't seen anything that suggests he is worth 20+ million. He hasn't added anything to his game really, but he is shooting much more efficiently.

That's such a weird comparison though. You compared him to an all time point forward champion and that's not even the role Lauri is playing.... Thad is playing that role. If you put Lauri in Thad's spot, I'm sure he would generate more assists (maybe not as much since Thad has that vet experience) just from the more utilization.

Lauri's role on this team is obviously one of the finisher of plays, not the generator of plays and at this point he's been doing well in that regards.


Ideally I do get your point though, his rebounding needs to come up (but impactful rebounding. I don't care about the inflated rebounds), his defense needs to be a bit more consistent (we see more effort in later game scenarios but it has to be throughout the game), and ideally he can show some playmaking chops once he gets the touches for that.

[cjbulls]

So, I decided to do some advanced statistical analysis of what I was seeing. My preconceived notion watching the offense was Lauri is spoon-fed his shots, and a laughable amount are wide open. He hasn't created for anyone else, and while he is a black hole, his great efficiency makes that okay (to a certain extent). But not someone worth a contract of 20+ million a year, even at this efficiency.

Step 1: Use Tracking stats to determine how many of Lauri's looks are wide open, compare to the rest of the starting unit as a reference.

Percentage of shots considered "Wide Open": Defender more than 6 feet away from the shooter

Coby White: 28%
Zach Lavine: 18%
Patrick Williams: 32%
Lauri Mark: 41%
Wendell Carter Jr: 20%

Ok, so this confirms it. Almost almost half of Lauri's looks are wide, wide, wide open. And we know that Lauri isn't breaking ankles and get 6 feet of space off the dribble, so the offensive system and other players are getting him wide open looks. And he's hitting them right now.

Step 2: Assist % (Percentage of a team's assists made by a player when he is on the floor)

Coby White: 24%
Zach Lavine: 24%
Patrick Williams: 6%
Lauri Mark: 5%
Wendell Carter Jr: 13%

This one is pretty damning. He essentially is a black hole, not really interested in getting teammates the ball. Once it gets to him, he shoots it, or passes it back out. He isn't creating for anyone else. Again, not sure how you can pay 20+ million for that.

We saw Lauri create more yesterday when he was utilized more. Also when you have a big man shooter at 65% TS, usually you're going to end the plays with him getting up an open shot, not pass out for an inferior look.

I don't agree with the first part, I don't think he's shown any kind of elite passing or shot creation for others with much consistency.

As for the 2nd part, I strongly agree. Lauri is shooting at an elite level, and the Bulls SHOULD be funneling him shots. And that's good.

I think my point is what kind of financial value do you place on an ELITE shooter, but a guy that isn't giving much else? Because it isn't happening from a creation standpoint, a defensive standpoint, a rebounding standpoint, etc. And if you getting a guy 40% of his shots as completely WIDE open, can you find his value with a much less costly player?

The answer is more than you think. This has always been my criticism of Lauri. But getting guys that can pass, defend, and rebound is typically much cheaper/easier than efficient scoring that doesn’t clog the paint.

And (arguably) a scorer who scores by getting open off-ball is more valuable because of their rarity. Most guys, like Zach and Coby, need the ball to score. But there is only one basketball.

Lauri can score without occupying the ball. And the more the defense works to take away those open shots, the more space and opportunity it creates for the offensive initiators.

He is a flawed player but in the right system he is quite impactful. The Bulls don’t even really have that system around him yet and he’s putting up good numbers. He’s a valuable asset, either as someone you build for or someone you can trade to a team that needs his skill set. Either way, I don’t see many scenarios where it’s worth just letting him walk

[Chicago-Bull-E]

We saw Lauri create more yesterday when he was utilized more. Also when you have a big man shooter at 65% TS, usually you're going to end the plays with him getting up an open shot, not pass out for an inferior look.

I don't agree with the first part, I don't think he's shown any kind of elite passing or shot creation for others with much consistency.

As for the 2nd part, I strongly agree. Lauri is shooting at an elite level, and the Bulls SHOULD be funneling him shots. And that's good.

I think my point is what kind of financial value do you place on an ELITE shooter, but a guy that isn't giving much else? Because it isn't happening from a creation standpoint, a defensive standpoint, a rebounding standpoint, etc. And if you getting a guy 40% of his shots as completely WIDE open, can you find his value with a much less costly player?

I think for Lauri the hierarchy goes like this:
-3 point shots
-drives to the rim
-creation attempts for himself/others

Last year he was barely getting enough utilization to get past the 3 point shot step. This year they are finally giving him utilization with his drives. The next step is utilize him more (in the sense that he gets touches) to give him opportunity to create for others.

Last night he got that opportunity slightly. He got double teamed which lead to the assist to Thad. And then he was given the opportunity to bring the ball up the floor and get the transition assist to Lavine.

He's obviously not going to create much if all of his touches (last year) are just open looks from 3.


---

The second part I mentioned the discrepancy between 2pt shots and 3pt shots. Lauri with the position he plays will always get open 3 point shots, and that will always drive the distribution towards open shots overall.

I like to look at the flip side. 40% of his play is also tight to very tight 2 point attempts. You can't disregard that. Look at it in comparison to Lavine:

Lauri -
53.6% open 3s
38.1% tight 2s

Lavine-
36.7% open 3s
35% tight 2s

Lauri is still generating buckets on tough 2s but I agree he gets a higher volume of open looks from 3. That's why I do think his shooting can be sustained.

Good stuff overall.

I'll be honest, I'm having a tough with the tight 2's statistic and what to make of it. I think the stat in large part comes from his drives where he runs into a defender at the rim. I think you'd like that number to go down and translate towards creation for others, BUT he is hitting those shots at a really good rate. Will be interesting to see if that number holds up.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

You realize he plays the 4, right?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

He does?

On the other end of the spectrum, Draymond Green assists 33% of the total GSW assists on the floor. You can go through starting power forwards, Lauri comes up very low on assist %.

For me, it's about how much he is bringing to the table, and what that cost is like. I still haven't seen anything that suggests he is worth 20+ million. He hasn't added anything to his game really, but he is shooting much more efficiently.

That's such a weird comparison though. You compared him to an all time point forward champion and that's not even the role Lauri is playing.... Thad is playing that role. If you put Lauri in Thad's spot, I'm sure he would generate more assists (maybe not as much since Thad has that vet experience) just from the more utilization.

Lauri's role on this team is obviously one of the finisher of plays, not the generator of plays and at this point he's been doing well in that regards.


Ideally I do get your point though, his rebounding needs to come up (but impactful rebounding. I don't care about the inflated rebounds), his defense needs to be a bit more consistent (we see more effort in later game scenarios but it has to be throughout the game), and ideally he can show some playmaking chops once he gets the touches for that.

Sure, I was just pointing out calling him a power forward is silly in the first place, lots of power forwards can do that. Him being a 'power forward' isn't some limiting factor that makes him incapable of certain things.

I think we really disagree on his role and what he's capable of. If he could do what Young does, I think they'd be running much more of that with Lauri. Because it's really effective with Thad right now.

Billy actually hinted that they ran it once or twice last night, but I'm pessimistic about that long term.

[PaKii94]

I don't agree with the first part, I don't think he's shown any kind of elite passing or shot creation for others with much consistency.

As for the 2nd part, I strongly agree. Lauri is shooting at an elite level, and the Bulls SHOULD be funneling him shots. And that's good.

I think my point is what kind of financial value do you place on an ELITE shooter, but a guy that isn't giving much else? Because it isn't happening from a creation standpoint, a defensive standpoint, a rebounding standpoint, etc. And if you getting a guy 40% of his shots as completely WIDE open, can you find his value with a much less costly player?

I think for Lauri the hierarchy goes like this:
-3 point shots
-drives to the rim
-creation attempts for himself/others

Last year he was barely getting enough utilization to get past the 3 point shot step. This year they are finally giving him utilization with his drives. The next step is utilize him more (in the sense that he gets touches) to give him opportunity to create for others.

Last night he got that opportunity slightly. He got double teamed which lead to the assist to Thad. And then he was given the opportunity to bring the ball up the floor and get the transition assist to Lavine.

He's obviously not going to create much if all of his touches (last year) are just open looks from 3.


---

The second part I mentioned the discrepancy between 2pt shots and 3pt shots. Lauri with the position he plays will always get open 3 point shots, and that will always drive the distribution towards open shots overall.

I like to look at the flip side. 40% of his play is also tight to very tight 2 point attempts. You can't disregard that. Look at it in comparison to Lavine:

Lauri -
53.6% open 3s
38.1% tight 2s

Lavine-
36.7% open 3s
35% tight 2s

Lauri is still generating buckets on tough 2s but I agree he gets a higher volume of open looks from 3. That's why I do think his shooting can be sustained.

Good stuff overall.

I'll be honest, I'm having a tough with the tight 2's statistic and what to make of it. I think the stat in large part comes from his drives where he runs into a defender at the rim. I think you'd like that number to go down and translate towards creation for others, BUT he is hitting those shots at a really good rate. Will be interesting to see if that number holds up.

Yeah that's where the balancing act comes in. When defenders start putting more pressure on him/start doubling him, that's when I hope to see him pass out instead of force the issue. If he does force it then that does justify labeling him as a "black hole".

However, I don't think Lauri is a selfish player. He's pretty good at picking his spots. Right now (at his efficiency) it's still better for the team to put up a shot than to pass it out. But he has been passing out and I do think he gets a few hockey assists for that, that aren't recorded.

[PaKii94]

He does?

On the other end of the spectrum, Draymond Green assists 33% of the total GSW assists on the floor. You can go through starting power forwards, Lauri comes up very low on assist %.

For me, it's about how much he is bringing to the table, and what that cost is like. I still haven't seen anything that suggests he is worth 20+ million. He hasn't added anything to his game really, but he is shooting much more efficiently.

That's such a weird comparison though. You compared him to an all time point forward champion and that's not even the role Lauri is playing.... Thad is playing that role. If you put Lauri in Thad's spot, I'm sure he would generate more assists (maybe not as much since Thad has that vet experience) just from the more utilization.

Lauri's role on this team is obviously one of the finisher of plays, not the generator of plays and at this point he's been doing well in that regards.


Ideally I do get your point though, his rebounding needs to come up (but impactful rebounding. I don't care about the inflated rebounds), his defense needs to be a bit more consistent (we see more effort in later game scenarios but it has to be throughout the game), and ideally he can show some playmaking chops once he gets the touches for that.

Sure, I was just pointing out calling him a power forward is silly in the first place, lots of power forwards can do that. Him being a 'power forward' isn't some limiting factor that makes him incapable of certain things.

I think we really disagree on his role and what he's capable of. If he could do what Young does, I think they'd be running much more of that with Lauri. Because it's really effective with Thad right now.

Billy actually hinted that they ran it once or twice last night, but I'm pessimistic about that long term.

It's all about the overall balance man. If he takes Thad's spot, who's taking his role as a finisher or spacer? Zach is already occupied and the rest of the team is a lot less efficient than him.

Thad looks good in that role because he has players to pass out to (a lot of those go to Lauri) that can finish their shots.

If Lauri is in Thad's role then he's passing out to Thad/wcj/gaffords at the 3 point line which is obviously not ideal.

But frankly I do want to see Lauri in that role. We saw him in that role during the OG FebruLauri. He was the big man at the top of the key. He was the first bigman everytime for the PNR. And that's when he was averaging his career best in assist rate.

Now his first job is to space the floor and then he's a secondary bigman.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

That's such a weird comparison though. You compared him to an all time point forward champion and that's not even the role Lauri is playing.... Thad is playing that role. If you put Lauri in Thad's spot, I'm sure he would generate more assists (maybe not as much since Thad has that vet experience) just from the more utilization.

Lauri's role on this team is obviously one of the finisher of plays, not the generator of plays and at this point he's been doing well in that regards.


Ideally I do get your point though, his rebounding needs to come up (but impactful rebounding. I don't care about the inflated rebounds), his defense needs to be a bit more consistent (we see more effort in later game scenarios but it has to be throughout the game), and ideally he can show some playmaking chops once he gets the touches for that.

Sure, I was just pointing out calling him a power forward is silly in the first place, lots of power forwards can do that. Him being a 'power forward' isn't some limiting factor that makes him incapable of certain things.

I think we really disagree on his role and what he's capable of. If he could do what Young does, I think they'd be running much more of that with Lauri. Because it's really effective with Thad right now.

Billy actually hinted that they ran it once or twice last night, but I'm pessimistic about that long term.

It's all about the overall balance man. If he takes Thad's spot, who's taking his role as a finisher or spacer? Zach is already occupied and the rest of the team is a lot less efficient than him.

Thad looks good in that role because he has players to pass out to (a lot of those go to Lauri) that can finish their shots.

If Lauri is in Thad's role then he's passing out to Thad/wcj/gaffords at the 3 point line which is obviously not ideal.

True. Would like to see what happens with Lauri at the 5 some, with Coby/Zach/Temple/OPJ (if he ever gets right).

[coldfish]

I find it generally funny that Lauri and Lavine actually are playing off each other well this year but many fans try to turn it into a competition for shots.

Unfortunately, both of them have the same weakness, which is defense. That might limit how good a long term pairing can be. Both of them are at least trying this year though.

If both of them continue to play like this for the season, I wouldn't be against $25m for Lauri and an eventual max for Lavine if you can't trade for someone better.

So, the question begs, if you are paying $60m to Lauri and Lavine. Can you build a contender with $70m to stay under the tax barrier? IMO, it would be tight. You basically can't have any big contracts for non contributors.

[PaKii94]

Sure, I was just pointing out calling him a power forward is silly in the first place, lots of power forwards can do that. Him being a 'power forward' isn't some limiting factor that makes him incapable of certain things.

I think we really disagree on his role and what he's capable of. If he could do what Young does, I think they'd be running much more of that with Lauri. Because it's really effective with Thad right now.

Billy actually hinted that they ran it once or twice last night, but I'm pessimistic about that long term.

It's all about the overall balance man. If he takes Thad's spot, who's taking his role as a finisher or spacer? Zach is already occupied and the rest of the team is a lot less efficient than him.

Thad looks good in that role because he has players to pass out to (a lot of those go to Lauri) that can finish their shots.

If Lauri is in Thad's role then he's passing out to Thad/wcj/gaffords at the 3 point line which is obviously not ideal.

True. Would like to see what happens with Lauri at the 5 some, with Coby/Zach/Temple/OPJ (if he ever gets right).

Yeah same. We saw it earlier in the season with the bench units.

[PaKii94]

I find it generally funny that Lauri and Lavine actually are playing off each other well this year but many fans try to turn it into a competition for shots.

Unfortunately, both of them have the same weakness, which is defense. That might limit how good a long term pairing can be. Both of them are at least trying this year though.

If both of them continue to play like this for the season, I wouldn't be against $25m for Lauri and an eventual max for Lavine if you can't trade for someone better.

So, the question begs, if you are paying $60m to Lauri and Lavine. Can you build a contender with $70m to stay under the tax barrier? IMO, it would be tight. You basically can't have any big contracts for non contributors.

Idk if anyone is actually making it a competition of shots between Lauri and Lavine this year besides our resident bulls board troll lol. They have actually looked pretty good together especially when they run the pnr. It's a pick your poison kind of thing. Cover Lauri at the 3 and give Lavine spacing to go 1 on 1 with a smaller player or double Lavine and give Lauri yet another open 3.

Also agreed on the team building process. To build around them you need solid defense and a playmaker. PWill should help at the 3 spot but we still need a defensive center and an actual playmaker at the 1.

[PaKii94]

Team building going forward was also why I wanted to lock in Lauri at 18per. That 7 mill difference is the difference between a single max slot and 2 maxes.

However if we are going to build around Lavine/Lauri, this off-season is the time. We have Lauri's rights to match and Zach is still at a cost controlled contract. We could theoretically still sign 2 max contracts and then sign Lauri with bird rights to get over the cap.

[chefo]

So, I decided to do some advanced statistical analysis of what I was seeing. My preconceived notion watching the offense was Lauri is spoon-fed his shots, and a laughable amount are wide open. He hasn't created for anyone else, and while he is a black hole, his great efficiency makes that okay (to a certain extent). But not someone worth a contract of 20+ million a year, even at this efficiency.

Step 1: Use Tracking stats to determine how many of Lauri's looks are wide open, compare to the rest of the starting unit as a reference.

Percentage of shots considered "Wide Open": Defender more than 6 feet away from the shooter

Coby White: 28%
Zach Lavine: 18%
Patrick Williams: 32%
Lauri Mark: 41%
Wendell Carter Jr: 20%

Ok, so this confirms it. Almost almost half of Lauri's looks are wide, wide, wide open. And we know that Lauri isn't breaking ankles and get 6 feet of space off the dribble, so the offensive system and other players are getting him wide open looks. And he's hitting them right now.

Step 2: Assist % (Percentage of a team's assists made by a player when he is on the floor)

Coby White: 24%
Zach Lavine: 24%
Patrick Williams: 6%
Lauri Mark: 5%
Wendell Carter Jr: 13%

This one is pretty damning. He essentially is a black hole, not really interested in getting teammates the ball. Once it gets to him, he shoots it, or passes it back out. He isn't creating for anyone else. Again, not sure how you can pay 20+ million for that.

Good to see the numbers, but I'm not sure what that proves. So, he's scoring incredibly efficiently and is assisted on a bunch of shots. The numbers prove the eye-test. So what? He's taking half of his shots from 3 (which will be mostly assisted for anybody who's not a lead ball handler), and then is shooting darn near 70% on twos, which is elite big territory.

So, to sum up, Lauri is currently playing like a combo of an elite 3 point shooter and an elite rim-running big. At that point, the question should be if can he keep it up. To me, going beyond that is looking for flaws to nick-pick on.

I also don't understand that whole fascination with 'creating'--Denzel can create, so what? Is he a good NBA player? Coby can create--he's still bottom quartile PG this year. The real question is not if you can do something in the NBA, but how good you are at it. Guys who can score as well as Lauri AND can 'create' for others make 40M / year if they are vets.

What I'm trying to get at is that Lauri doesn't need to 'create' to be a very valuable player. Lauri moves well off ball this year-->he gets open shots; every team needs a bunch of Lauris--preferably one really good, high-volume one and a couple of very low usage ones that can also play good D. Players like him are incredibly valuable to a team. This is not a take-turns going one-on-one game.

By the way, that was the one big difference in the Dubs pre-Kerr and post-Kerr. They went from taking turns going solo under Jackson to running around all-the-time under Kerr. Klay would not be half-as-valuable as he was, if he was forced to be a one-on-one scorer like Jackson wanted him to be. So, Klay can't 'create' either by our board's definition--he's still an elite player regardless, and one of the best players on a championship team.

But at this point I feel people are grasping at straws to find flaws--Lauri is having a career year so far, and is one of the best high scoring super efficient players on O, league-wide. Enjoy it, and hopefully it lasts. He's a huge positive on O currently. You can still harp on him for not playing D like a big--but even there he's making strides and has had some good stretches against really good scorers like Davis, Dame and Randolph over the last several games.

[Stratmaster]

I find it generally funny that Lauri and Lavine actually are playing off each other well this year but many fans try to turn it into a competition for shots.

Unfortunately, both of them have the same weakness, which is defense. That might limit how good a long term pairing can be. Both of them are at least trying this year though.

If both of them continue to play like this for the season, I wouldn't be against $25m for Lauri and an eventual max for Lavine if you can't trade for someone better.

So, the question begs, if you are paying $60m to Lauri and Lavine. Can you build a contender with $70m to stay under the tax barrier? IMO, it would be tight. You basically can't have any big contracts for non contributors.

If you sign another piece before signing Lauri and Zach (re-signing your own players) , are you still limited by the cap?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[coldfish]

I find it generally funny that Lauri and Lavine actually are playing off each other well this year but many fans try to turn it into a competition for shots.

Unfortunately, both of them have the same weakness, which is defense. That might limit how good a long term pairing can be. Both of them are at least trying this year though.

If both of them continue to play like this for the season, I wouldn't be against $25m for Lauri and an eventual max for Lavine if you can't trade for someone better.

So, the question begs, if you are paying $60m to Lauri and Lavine. Can you build a contender with $70m to stay under the tax barrier? IMO, it would be tight. You basically can't have any big contracts for non contributors.

Idk if anyone is actually making it a competition of shots between Lauri and Lavine this year besides our resident bulls board troll lol. They have actually looked pretty good together especially when they run the pnr. It's a pick your poison kind of thing. Cover Lauri at the 3 and give Lavine spacing to go 1 on 1 with a smaller player or double Lavine and give Lauri yet another open 3.

Also agreed on the team building process. To build around them you need solid defense and a playmaker. PWill should help at the 3 spot but we still need a defensive center and an actual playmaker at the 1.

I agree that PW kind of works at SF. He has to improve but he deserves a chance.

IMO, if the Bulls are going to form a big 3 the 3rd guy should be a center. We see what Thad does playing at that distributor role. The Bulls don't need a scorer. They just need someone who is enough of a threat that he can't be ignored and is a good passer but primarily acts as a beast defense/rebounding wise. WCJ was actually supposed to be that guy but he just isn't.

For PG, they will have to go bargain hunting.

[coldfish]

I find it generally funny that Lauri and Lavine actually are playing off each other well this year but many fans try to turn it into a competition for shots.

Unfortunately, both of them have the same weakness, which is defense. That might limit how good a long term pairing can be. Both of them are at least trying this year though.

If both of them continue to play like this for the season, I wouldn't be against $25m for Lauri and an eventual max for Lavine if you can't trade for someone better.

So, the question begs, if you are paying $60m to Lauri and Lavine. Can you build a contender with $70m to stay under the tax barrier? IMO, it would be tight. You basically can't have any big contracts for non contributors.

If you sign another piece before signing Lauri and Zach (re-signing your own players) , are you still limited by the cap?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

The salary cap is $109m. This is a soft cap that the Bulls can easily get over.
The luxury tax is $133m. This is a hard cap that Jerry will murder people before paying.

Functionally, the Bulls have to plan on keeping their salary below $133m.

[PaKii94]

I find it generally funny that Lauri and Lavine actually are playing off each other well this year but many fans try to turn it into a competition for shots.

Unfortunately, both of them have the same weakness, which is defense. That might limit how good a long term pairing can be. Both of them are at least trying this year though.

If both of them continue to play like this for the season, I wouldn't be against $25m for Lauri and an eventual max for Lavine if you can't trade for someone better.

So, the question begs, if you are paying $60m to Lauri and Lavine. Can you build a contender with $70m to stay under the tax barrier? IMO, it would be tight. You basically can't have any big contracts for non contributors.

Idk if anyone is actually making it a competition of shots between Lauri and Lavine this year besides our resident bulls board troll lol. They have actually looked pretty good together especially when they run the pnr. It's a pick your poison kind of thing. Cover Lauri at the 3 and give Lavine spacing to go 1 on 1 with a smaller player or double Lavine and give Lauri yet another open 3.

Also agreed on the team building process. To build around them you need solid defense and a playmaker. PWill should help at the 3 spot but we still need a defensive center and an actual playmaker at the 1.

I agree that PW kind of works at SF. He has to improve but he deserves a chance.

IMO, if the Bulls are going to form a big 3 the 3rd guy should be a center. We see what Thad does playing at that distributor role. The Bulls don't need a scorer. They just need someone who is enough of a threat that he can't be ignored and is a good passer but primarily acts as a beast defense/rebounding wise. WCJ was actually supposed to be that guy but he just isn't.

For PG, they will have to go bargain hunting.

I agree we have enough scoring. Idk who we can get for a playmaking defensive center though. You are describing a prime noah. Maybe a younger Al horford? The only one fitting Lavine/Lauri's timeline that I can think of is Bam but he's pretty much locked in.

I guess if Philly implodes this season we could go after embiid.

[PaKii94]

I find it generally funny that Lauri and Lavine actually are playing off each other well this year but many fans try to turn it into a competition for shots.

Unfortunately, both of them have the same weakness, which is defense. That might limit how good a long term pairing can be. Both of them are at least trying this year though.

If both of them continue to play like this for the season, I wouldn't be against $25m for Lauri and an eventual max for Lavine if you can't trade for someone better.

So, the question begs, if you are paying $60m to Lauri and Lavine. Can you build a contender with $70m to stay under the tax barrier? IMO, it would be tight. You basically can't have any big contracts for non contributors.

If you sign another piece before signing Lauri and Zach (re-signing your own players) , are you still limited by the cap?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

The salary cap is $109m. This is a soft cap that the Bulls can easily get over.
The luxury tax is $133m. This is a hard cap that Jerry will murder people before paying.

Functionally, the Bulls have to plan on keeping their salary below $133m.

Well if we are signing two max contracts then the hope is we are looking towards contention. If we are then jerry should ideally be willing to open the pockets for luxury tax...

[PaKii94]

Man I would love to have Jrue Holiday and gobert on this team.