WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1

[Frozzy]

PGs All Time:

Magic
Curry
Oscar
Nash
Kidd

I've moved Oscar down to like #7 just because he dissed Steph

The "back in my day we walked 10 miles in the snow" BS he was spewing was so lame

He was also slobbing over Westbrook's triple double season and presented the MVP trophy to him I believe. Wonder what his thoughts on Westbrook is now.

[East Bay Sports]

He’s more athletic than Embiid. Embiid a better shooter and better footwork.

But I see a thicker AD at the same time of their ages. But I don’t like the comparisons much because he is a special mix.

He's built like Embiid but I agree he's a more fluid athlete, possibly due to the wear and tear Embiid has already suffered early in his career.

[HiRez]

I like a lot of what I see from Wiseman and I still believe in him long term, but I'd *probably* trade him straight up for Haliburton right now. Would just be a better fit in the short term and still a great prospect long. Shooting upgrade over anyone not named Steph or Klay, very good defense, and playmaking as well. Would be killer in the small ball lineup (he's excellent in transition) without having to give up the Minnesota pick or Wiggins, like we might have to for Beal. Center position would still need to be addressed, but we'll probably have Chriss back next year, who knows maybe even Mobley with the MIN pick.

IDK, for now might as well give the kid some time and see how he looks by the second half of the season. Hopefully there's some progression and they can work out how to fit him into the uptempo system that works best for these Warriors. Stop force-feeding him the ball in iso situations not close to the rim would go a long way.

[michaelm]

He’s more athletic than Embiid. Embiid a better shooter and better footwork.

But I see a thicker AD at the same time of their ages. But I don’t like the comparisons much because he is a special mix.

He's built like Embiid but I agree he's a more fluid athlete, possibly due to the wear and tear Embiid has already suffered early in his career.

Or Embiid has had the wear and tear because he is a less fluid athlete. I loved Bogut, as a basketball player at least, but someone said years ago watching him run up and down the court anyone could tell he was going to have an injury plagued career.

I certainly don’t see Wiseman’s ceiling as being ZaZa. Maybe it is AD, who would be rather good next to Strph et al I would have thought.

I am happy to leave it up to the organisation, as long as basketball guys make the decision with significant input from Kerr, Steph and Dray.

[killmongrel]

The way I look at Wiseman is that I wanted to draft him because we needed a center and knew he would maintain his value. He is worth more now than when we drafted him. So while I don't oppose involving him in a trade, the guy we trade for him better be significant. Wiseman is going to be a great player in this league. Just about when that'll happen. I'm willing to wait as long as it falls in line with Steph's window.

[clyde21]

He’s more athletic than Embiid. Embiid a better shooter and better footwork.

But I see a thicker AD at the same time of their ages. But I don’t like the comparisons much because he is a special mix.

He's built like Embiid but I agree he's a more fluid athlete, possibly due to the wear and tear Embiid has already suffered early in his career.

more fluid embiid

bigger davis

ya'll listening to yourselves?

[shazam_guy]

I’m ride or die Wiseman

Who’s coming with me?

I'm already in. My term for it is "Buy and Hold".

[FNQ]

He’s more athletic than Embiid. Embiid a better shooter and better footwork.

But I see a thicker AD at the same time of their ages. But I don’t like the comparisons much because he is a special mix.

He's built like Embiid but I agree he's a more fluid athlete, possibly due to the wear and tear Embiid has already suffered early in his career.

more fluid embiid

bigger davis

ya'll listening to yourselves?

Yeah its a bit much..

I think right now we're looking at a mish-mash of AR/BW, with all the upside they had still in-tact. But realistically I think JW's peak is as a Chris Bosh type. Value that how you will, but I think Bosh is even pushing the limit of rosy outlooks, as he was probably a high-level #2 option on a contending team, and provided defensive help as well. I'd imagine if JW does max out his potential, he'd probably be a better defender than Bosh, but less of an offensive 'go-to' type. Bosh had the ability to pull up off the dribble like a guard, and JW's motion is much slower and needing of space.

[shazam_guy]

He’s more athletic than Embiid. Embiid a better shooter and better footwork.

But I see a thicker AD at the same time of their ages. But I don’t like the comparisons much because he is a special mix.

He's built like Embiid but I agree he's a more fluid athlete, possibly due to the wear and tear Embiid has already suffered early in his career.

more fluid embiid

bigger davis

ya'll listening to yourselves?

Nobody's saying "This is definitely what he's going to be," so that's kind of a silly reduction of the discussion. The disagreement is between "get rid of him for something" and "hold on and see what he'll become". Perfectly legitimate, and also very similar to arguments on this board over Curry, Dray, and various others. Some worked out, like the two named. Some did not. But if we stick to the actual arguments being offered we'll have a more fruitful discussion.

[clyde21]

He's built like Embiid but I agree he's a more fluid athlete, possibly due to the wear and tear Embiid has already suffered early in his career.

more fluid embiid

bigger davis

ya'll listening to yourselves?

Nobody's saying "This is definitely what he's going to be," so that's kind of a silly reduction of the discussion. The disagreement is between "get rid of him for something" and "hold on and see what he'll become". Perfectly legitimate, and also very similar to arguments on this board over Curry, Dray, and various others. Some worked out, like the two named. Some did not. But if we stick to the actual arguments being offered we'll have a more fruitful discussion.

you can have that disagreement without bringing up these absurd comps that are not really grounded in reality, you can make that point without it

i get it, warriors fans already feel attached to Wiseman because we took him 2nd, but rationale should not be thrown out the window because of it.

the discussion that needs to be had is is Wiseman a good fit here schematically and from a personnel standpoint, and how far away is he from legitimately contributing to a title run because of it. we don't have the luxury of waiting around for a guy that doesn't even fit this offense to develop.

i don't want to rehash this but this is exactly why i wanted to trade trade and take Haliburton who'd be a picture perfect in this offense that can actually help us in our title runs the next 2-3 years next to Steph/Klay, but that's out of the equation at this point.

[DevinVassell]

I'm getting the impression that for some on here, the consensus for Wiseman is.... SUPERSTAR or BUST... and nothing else. Is there no room for middle ground? Lets face it, due to the injuries last year, the Warriors high draft pick was basically found money. We were never a bad team that desperately needed a savior, we just injured.

If Wiseman is just an above average center on defense, blocking shots, stretching the floor with his shoot etc, we have done ok.

... and I am not saying that the superstar potential is not there. It most definitely is. Just that having a long term, above average, legit center on our roster should not be considered a failure, even at #2.

[clyde21]

I'm getting the impression that for some on here, the consensus for Wiseman is.... SUPERSTAR or BUST... and nothing else. Is there no room for middle ground? Lets face it, due to the injuries last year, the Warriors high draft pick was basically found money. We were never a bad team that desperately needed a savior, we just injured.

If Wiseman is just an above average center on defense, blocking shots, stretching the floor with his shoot etc, we have done ok.

... and I am not saying that the superstar potential is not there. It most definitely is. Just that having a long term, above average, legit center on our roster should not be considered a failure, even at #2.

nah, Andre Drummond/Deandre Ayton level big is always what it was for me when it comes to Wiseman, but the issue isn't necessarily the talent level, it's also just the bad fit here.

inserting a positionally locked Center into a motion offense that requires a lot of ball and player movement and different players playing different positions/roles just doesn't make any sense.

[michaelm]

more fluid embiid

bigger davis

ya'll listening to yourselves?

Nobody's saying "This is definitely what he's going to be," so that's kind of a silly reduction of the discussion. The disagreement is between "get rid of him for something" and "hold on and see what he'll become". Perfectly legitimate, and also very similar to arguments on this board over Curry, Dray, and various others. Some worked out, like the two named. Some did not. But if we stick to the actual arguments being offered we'll have a more fruitful discussion.

you can have that disagreement without bringing up these absurd comps that are not really grounded in reality, you can make that point without it

i get it, warriors fans already feel attached to Wiseman because we took him 2nd, but rationale should not be thrown out the window because of it.

the discussion that needs to be had is is Wiseman a good fit here schematically and from a personnel standpoint, and how far away is he from legitimately contributing to a title run because of it. we don't have the luxury of waiting around for a guy that doesn't even fit this offense to develop.

i don't want to rehash this but this is exactly why i wanted to trade trade and take Haliburton who'd be a picture perfect in this offense that can actually help us in our title runs the next 2-3 years next to Steph/Klay, but that's out of the equation at this point.

Then it depends on whether you or the GSW organisation are the best judges, because it seems to be their assessment that he is a rare talent. If Kerr, the coaching staff and Curry and Dray are on board I will go with them at this stage, but sure signing Haliburton and getting a journeyman big might have been a good strategy as well. My only concern is whether Lacob is having the say over the professional basketball people, grateful though I am for his preparedness to spend.

[cdubbz]

I'm getting the impression that for some on here, the consensus for Wiseman is.... SUPERSTAR or BUST... and nothing else. Is there no room for middle ground? Lets face it, due to the injuries last year, the Warriors high draft pick was basically found money. We were never a bad team that desperately needed a savior, we just injured.

If Wiseman is just an above average center on defense, blocking shots, stretching the floor with his shoot etc, we have done ok.

... and I am not saying that the superstar potential is not there. It most definitely is. Just that having a long term, above average, legit center on our roster should not be considered a failure, even at #2.

I'm not superstar or bust on Wiseman. If he becomes a solid starting Center than I'm happy. If he had a more productive Brook Lopez type career (more Bucks version) 12ppg, 7rpg, 1-2bpg and can drain threes I'd be thrilled. lol.

[shazam_guy]

First of all, Oscar Robertson is a grumpy old man, but he went through a lot -- a LOT -- of racism and other BS during his career, so I'll cut him some slack. But as a player, there was never another point guard like him. I think anyone who leaves him out of the top five is suffering from recency bias. I mean, I love Gary Payton and several others mentioned, but come on: Oscar was throwing out triple doubles left and right as a byproduct, not as a goal. Best scoring point guard ever, period. Inside, outside, didn't matter. The only time he had another star on his team he won a championship. Good as he was, Isaiah was surrounded by excellent players, and so were most of the other PGs mentioned. I can't even imagine what Oscar would have done on the 80s Lakers or the 90s Pistons.

As far as Wiseman, this is getting boring. Every time one of us says, "He's 19. He's got skills and incredible physical gifts. There's no way to know what his upside is," someone else says, "Stop worshipping the guy," as if we've already declared him the best big man ever instead of what we're actually saying, which is, "Don't want to trade him for some short-term crap until we know more about his upside."

This whole Wiseman thing isn't a discussion anymore, it's turned into trench warfare.

[clyde21]

First of all, Oscar Robertson is a grumpy old man, but he went through a lot -- a LOT -- of racism and other BS during his career, so I'll cut him some slack. But as a player, there was never another point guard like him. I think anyone who leaves him out of the top five is suffering from recency bias. I mean, I love Gary Payton and several others mentioned, but come on: Oscar was throwing out triple doubles left and right as a byproduct, not as a goal. Best scoring point guard ever, period. Inside, outside, didn't matter. The only time he had another star on his team he won a championship. Good as he was, Isaiah was surrounded by excellent players, and so were most of the other PGs mentioned. I can't even imagine what Oscar would have done on the 80s Lakers or the 90s Pistons.

As far as Wiseman, this is getting boring. Every time one of us says, "He's 19. He's got skills and incredible physical gifts. There's no way to know what his upside is," someone else says, "Stop worshipping the guy," as if we've already declared him the best big man ever instead of what we're actually saying, which is, "Don't want to trade him for some short-term crap until we know more about his upside."

This whole Wiseman thing isn't a discussion anymore, it's turned into trench warfare.

because it's a lot more than a player having 'incredible physical gifts'...it's not that simple, there is the question of how he fits within this scheme and offense, there's a question of where his ceiling is and if it's high enough to develop him at this point at the expense of everyone else, is he gonna be able to contribute to our title runs in the next 2-3 years?

all of these questions have to be answered.

[HiRez]

As far as Wiseman, this is getting boring. Every time one of us says, "He's 19. He's got skills and incredible physical gifts. There's no way to know what his upside is," someone else says, "Stop worshipping the guy," as if we've already declared him the best big man ever instead of what we're actually saying, which is, "Don't want to trade him for some short-term crap until we know more about his upside."

This whole Wiseman thing isn't a discussion anymore, it's turned into trench warfare.

because it's a lot more than a player having 'incredible physical gifts'...it's not that simple, there is the question of how he fits within this scheme and offense, there's a question of where his ceiling is and if it's high enough to develop him at this point at the expense of everyone else, is he gonna be able to contribute to our title runs in the next 2-3 years?

all of these questions have to be answered.

And with more playing time, they will. I don't know the answer, but I don't believe anyone who says they know otherwise right now. How much time is up for debate, maybe it's 6 months or 6 years, but 20 games isn't enough, especially with so little past track record to go by. Personally I'm willing to give him at least this whole year and while I don't think we'll have a complete answer by then, we'll have some hints.

On the other hand, I understand the perspective to say we can't wait to find out because our window on Steph is closing. And there's no doubt Wiseman is one of the best if not the best asset we have to get another piece for one or two last championship runs. But I don't think we should get caught in between trying to see what he is while at the same time getting frustrated when he's not giving immediate gratification. If they decide to chase rings now, they should trade him now, and they should trade the MIN pick too, for the same reason: we don't know exactly what it is or what it will lead to yet, but we can be relatively sure it has some high value at this moment.

If they give up Wiseman and our picks and bring in Beal or Simmons or whoever, and still fall short, they'll be accused of squandering our future for nothing. If they hang onto Wiseman and he turns into more Damian Jones than Joel Embiid, if Minny goes on a little run or the lotto balls fall the wrong way and we end up with a #9 pick, they'll be crucified for not using their assets while they're hot, and wasting the last prime years of Steph, Klay, and Draymond. It's a tough decision for the FO, I don't envy them. Big possibility of disappointment or disaster either way.

[Ilovethebay]

As far as Wiseman, this is getting boring. Every time one of us says, "He's 19. He's got skills and incredible physical gifts. There's no way to know what his upside is," someone else says, "Stop worshipping the guy," as if we've already declared him the best big man ever instead of what we're actually saying, which is, "Don't want to trade him for some short-term crap until we know more about his upside."

This whole Wiseman thing isn't a discussion anymore, it's turned into trench warfare.

because it's a lot more than a player having 'incredible physical gifts'...it's not that simple, there is the question of how he fits within this scheme and offense, there's a question of where his ceiling is and if it's high enough to develop him at this point at the expense of everyone else, is he gonna be able to contribute to our title runs in the next 2-3 years?

all of these questions have to be answered.

And with more playing time, they will. I don't know the answer, but I don't believe anyone who says they know otherwise right now. How much time is up for debate, maybe it's 6 months or 6 years, but 20 games isn't enough, especially with so little past track record to go by. Personally I'm willing to give him at least this whole year and while I don't think we'll have a complete answer by then, we'll have some hints.

On the other hand, I understand the perspective to say we can't wait to find out because our window on Steph is closing. And there's no doubt Wiseman is one of the best if not the best asset we have to get another piece for one or two last championship runs. But I don't think we should get caught in between trying to see what he is while at the same time getting frustrated when he's not giving immediate gratification. If they decide to chase rings now, they should trade him now, and they should trade the MIN pick too, for the same reason: we don't know exactly what it is or what it will lead to yet, but we can be relatively sure it has some high value at this moment.

If they give up Wiseman and our picks and bring in Beal or Simmons or whoever, and still fall short, they'll be accused of squandering our future for nothing. If they hang onto Wiseman and he turns into more Damian Jones than Joel Embiid, if Minny goes on a little run or the lotto balls fall the wrong way and we end up with a #9 pick, they'll be crucified for not using their assets while they're hot, and wasting the last prime years of Steph, Klay, and Draymond. It's a tough decision for the FO, I don't envy them. Big possibility of disappointment or disaster either way.

I hear you but I don’t see it that way. The decision is quite easy for me. It all depends on what’s available for a trade. We just need a couple key pieces to make another 2-3 year run for a championship. While Wiseman has a pretty big ceiling and the Minny pick COULD turn out to be Allstar players in the next 2-3 years we have a top 5 player in the last of his prime now. That’s the reality, not what future players /picks MIGHT do.

[Impuniti]

Really hope he is back this Thursday. Better have been watching film and learning on the sidelines, could be a difference maker for 15-20 minutes next game.

Looney Toones and Wiseman have been sorely missed.

[Ilovethebay]

PGs All Time:

Magic
Curry
Oscar
Nash
Kidd

I've moved Oscar down to like #7 just because he dissed Steph

The "back in my day we walked 10 miles in the snow" BS he was spewing was so lame

He was also slobbing over Westbrook's triple double season and presented the MVP trophy to him I believe. Wonder what his thoughts on Westbrook is now.

NBA legend. Not very smart. Put MJ in that group too.