Lets talk Zach Lavine

[TheFinishSniper]

Zach is young enough to give him full max. Ofcourse he is part of the future unless Pelicans dont offer Zion in return or Grizzlies offer Ja Morant.

[fleet]

I wouldn't try and get on the bandwagon, he still makes me nervous when ever possession counts etc, but he's now more of a winning player than I was giving him credit for in the past. He's made the second biggest jump this season than he did in the last 3 years of progression. I won't be "sold" on him until he makes a couple more years of progression. I'd still trade him for various deals. He's good with me on his current deal. Once you start paying him a lot more money, not too sure about that. I am definitely not going to be happy with him on a max deal at this point in time. I'm still looking to see what's out there before the time comes to crossing that bridge

[WindyCityBorn]

I wouldn't try and get on the bandwagon, he still makes me nervous when ever possession counts etc, but he's now more of a winning player than I was giving him credit for in the past. He's made the second biggest jump this season than he did in the last 3 years of progression. I won't be "sold" on him until he makes a couple more years of progression. I'd still trade him for various deals. He's good with me on his current deal. Once you start paying him a lot more money, not too sure about that. I am definitely not going to be happy with him on a max deal at this point in time. I'm still looking to see what's out there before the time comes to crossing that bridge

He is an obscene bargain on his current deal. He would get $30 million+ per on the open market right now. Don’t make the mistake they did with Butler. Didn’t they trade him because they didn’t think he was worth the max? Zach clearly hasn’t peaked yet. I don’t even think we can fully judge because of the crap he has been handed as far as the team around. His efficiency for the difficulty of shots he generally takes is absurd. Tonight was one of the rare occasions where he got a lot of open catch and shoots opportunities and he killed it. With a legit lead playmaker/second star on the court with him this could be the looks he gets every night. There probably like 10 players in the league that are actually worth a max contract so doesn’t even figure into my equation.

[DroseReturnChi]

Zach is young enough to give him full max.

Being young doesnt really have to do with giving max. Him not being worth max due to injury or DAR is only one possibility.
But giving a guy max means your committed 5 yr short term to win championships instead of being flexible. You could still trade him but I doubt he will have higher trade value than now. Trading him now guarantees value. Drafting a bust with Lavine is another story.

Say Lavine profits us a stud like Kuminga. I doubt he outperforms Kuminga and 30mil worth of max fa such as gordon hayward.

[fleet]

I wouldn't try and get on the bandwagon, he still makes me nervous when ever possession counts etc, but he's now more of a winning player than I was giving him credit for in the past. He's made the second biggest jump this season than he did in the last 3 years of progression. I won't be "sold" on him until he makes a couple more years of progression. I'd still trade him for various deals. He's good with me on his current deal. Once you start paying him a lot more money, not too sure about that. I am definitely not going to be happy with him on a max deal at this point in time. I'm still looking to see what's out there before the time comes to crossing that bridge

He is an obscene bargain on his current deal. He would get $30 million+ per on the open market right now. Don’t make the mistake they did with Butler. Didn’t they trade him because they didn’t think he was worth the max? Zach clearly hasn’t peaked yet. I don’t even think we can fully judge because of the crap he has been handed as far as the team around. His efficiency for the difficulty of shots he generally takes is absurd. Tonight was one of the rare occasions where he got a lot of open catch and shoots opportunities and he killed it. With a legit lead playmaker/second star on the court with him this could be the looks he gets every night. There probably like 10 players in the league that are actually worth a max contract so doesn’t even figure into my equation.

I wouldn’t go there with Butler, who was a far more consequential player in terms of positive impact on a team. This current team also seems less dug in in terms of inability to make moves than the Butler team. But they should have tried with Jimmy in hindsight. Zach has to be better to get into those kinds of scenarios of regret.

[WindyCityBorn]

I wouldn't try and get on the bandwagon, he still makes me nervous when ever possession counts etc, but he's now more of a winning player than I was giving him credit for in the past. He's made the second biggest jump this season than he did in the last 3 years of progression. I won't be "sold" on him until he makes a couple more years of progression. I'd still trade him for various deals. He's good with me on his current deal. Once you start paying him a lot more money, not too sure about that. I am definitely not going to be happy with him on a max deal at this point in time. I'm still looking to see what's out there before the time comes to crossing that bridge

He is an obscene bargain on his current deal. He would get $30 million+ per on the open market right now. Don’t make the mistake they did with Butler. Didn’t they trade him because they didn’t think he was worth the max? Zach clearly hasn’t peaked yet. I don’t even think we can fully judge because of the crap he has been handed as far as the team around. His efficiency for the difficulty of shots he generally takes is absurd. Tonight was one of the rare occasions where he got a lot of open catch and shoots opportunities and he killed it. With a legit lead playmaker/second star on the court with him this could be the looks he gets every night. There probably like 10 players in the league that are actually worth a max contract so doesn’t even figure into my equation.

I wouldn’t go there with Butler, who was a far more consequential player in terms of positive impact on a team. This current team also seems less dug in in terms of inability to make moves than the Butler team. But they should have tried with Jimmy in hindsight. Zach has to be better to get into those kinds of scenarios of regret.

Is Butler worth a max with how trash Miami is this season? He has less of chance to make the all-star game than Zach. What about Beal? Luka? All the years Anthony failed to anything in New Orleans. There are very few players that make a team a winner on their own. Hell even Lebron missed the playoffs his first season in Los Angeles. Until we see LaVine with a competent team around him(we had one this season before our glass men broke again) I’m not judging him on the team’s success. He is basically the only reason we are competitive every night right now. Put Beal, Booker or Butler and here and doubt the results are any better. Because two of their teams have worse records.

[fleet]

He is an obscene bargain on his current deal. He would get $30 million+ per on the open market right now. Don’t make the mistake they did with Butler. Didn’t they trade him because they didn’t think he was worth the max? Zach clearly hasn’t peaked yet. I don’t even think we can fully judge because of the crap he has been handed as far as the team around. His efficiency for the difficulty of shots he generally takes is absurd. Tonight was one of the rare occasions where he got a lot of open catch and shoots opportunities and he killed it. With a legit lead playmaker/second star on the court with him this could be the looks he gets every night. There probably like 10 players in the league that are actually worth a max contract so doesn’t even figure into my equation.

I wouldn’t go there with Butler, who was a far more consequential player in terms of positive impact on a team. This current team also seems less dug in in terms of inability to make moves than the Butler team. But they should have tried with Jimmy in hindsight. Zach has to be better to get into those kinds of scenarios of regret.

Is Butler worth a max with how trash Miami is this season? He has less of chance to make the all-star game than Zach. What about Beal? Luka? All the years Anthony failed to anything in New Orleans. There are very few players that make a team a winner on their own. Hell even Lebron missed the playoffs his first season in Los Angeles. Until we see LaVine with a competent team around him(we had one this season before our glass men broke again) I’m not judging him on the team’s success. He is basically the only reason we are competitive every night right now. Put Beal, Booker or Butler and here and doubt the results are any better. Because two of their teams have worse records.

To hold team roster circumstances positive or negative to named players and then pay them accordingly has never been the NBA way. They are evaluated and paid best as can be done on projected in-game impact. Measured any way you like. I do believe a number of those players mentioned will have more impact. Max deals are capped now, but no FO would pay Giannis based on how many games his team could win relative to his roster currently. Or in the past. Its about player quality. The difference we are having in this debate is that while Zach has elevated his game, he still wouldn’t be a great max deal to have based on his current impact imo. We aren’t talking about wins here. Raw impact projections during games on a generic team. In a couple years, we will see where he is. He is going in the right direction, Ill give him that. Definitely an all star.

[johnnyvann840]

He is an obscene bargain on his current deal. He would get $30 million+ per on the open market right now. Don’t make the mistake they did with Butler. Didn’t they trade him because they didn’t think he was worth the max? Zach clearly hasn’t peaked yet. I don’t even think we can fully judge because of the crap he has been handed as far as the team around. His efficiency for the difficulty of shots he generally takes is absurd. Tonight was one of the rare occasions where he got a lot of open catch and shoots opportunities and he killed it. With a legit lead playmaker/second star on the court with him this could be the looks he gets every night. There probably like 10 players in the league that are actually worth a max contract so doesn’t even figure into my equation.

I wouldn’t go there with Butler, who was a far more consequential player in terms of positive impact on a team. This current team also seems less dug in in terms of inability to make moves than the Butler team. But they should have tried with Jimmy in hindsight. Zach has to be better to get into those kinds of scenarios of regret.

Is Butler worth a max with how trash Miami is this season? He has less of chance to make the all-star game than Zach. What about Beal? Luka? All the years Anthony failed to anything in New Orleans. There are very few players that make a team a winner on their own. Hell even Lebron missed the playoffs his first season in Los Angeles. Until we see LaVine with a competent team around him(we had one this season before our glass men broke again) I’m not judging him on the team’s success. He is basically the only reason we are competitive every night right now. Put Beal, Booker or Butler and here and doubt the results are any better. Because two of their teams have worse records.

Jimmy just dragged Miami to the Finals on his back. Jimmy's teams have always been a LOT better with him on the floor and his impact has always been obviously positive on the scoreboard. Even this season, Miami is 17 pts better with Jimmy on the floor. Miami being bad is because Jimmy has only played in 12 games this season. In those games Butler has played in, Miami is 7-5. Without Jimmy they are 3-9. So yeah, seeing his team was just in the NBA Finals last season this past summer and his impact is so obviously positive as it has been his entire career, he is worth it.

[MalagaBulls]

Zach is close to joining the "50/40/90" club. FT at 86.3%, 3pt at 41.5%, & FG at 51.8%. All on high volume which makes him the obvious # 1 option. Let´s see how the averages fare over the course of the next 10-12 games which are against some tough opponents.

[WindyCityBorn]

Zach is close to joining the "50/40/90" club. FT at 86.3%, 3pt at 41.5%, & FG at 51.8%. All on high volume which makes him the obvious # 1 option. Let´s see how the averages fare over the course of the next 10-12 games which are against some tough opponents.

I doubt it will be much different than before. We have already played plenty of tough teams already and he hasn’t been really been stopped anyone. I still don’t expect many wins now with how depleted our frontcourt is. It took a historic shooting performance to win last night.

[WindyCityBorn]

I wouldn’t go there with Butler, who was a far more consequential player in terms of positive impact on a team. This current team also seems less dug in in terms of inability to make moves than the Butler team. But they should have tried with Jimmy in hindsight. Zach has to be better to get into those kinds of scenarios of regret.

Is Butler worth a max with how trash Miami is this season? He has less of chance to make the all-star game than Zach. What about Beal? Luka? All the years Anthony failed to anything in New Orleans. There are very few players that make a team a winner on their own. Hell even Lebron missed the playoffs his first season in Los Angeles. Until we see LaVine with a competent team around him(we had one this season before our glass men broke again) I’m not judging him on the team’s success. He is basically the only reason we are competitive every night right now. Put Beal, Booker or Butler and here and doubt the results are any better. Because two of their teams have worse records.

Jimmy just dragged Miami to the Finals on his back. Jimmy's teams have always been a LOT better with him on the floor and his impact has always been obviously positive on the scoreboard. Even this season, Miami is 17 pts better with Jimmy on the floor. Miami being bad is because Jimmy has only played in 12 games this season. In those games Butler has played in, Miami is 7-5. Without Jimmy they are 3-9. So yeah, seeing his team was just in the NBA Finals last season this past summer and his impact is so obviously positive as it has been his entire career, he is worth it.

We are talking about today not what happened in the past. He has proven you wrong so far. It will likely continue. I’m not saying he is worth the max, but I mean you said he signing him to his current deal was one of the biggest mistakes the Bulls have ever made and lot of other stuff about him that was dead wrong so you don’t have a good track record when it comes to projections for LaVine.

[WindyCityBorn]

I wouldn’t go there with Butler, who was a far more consequential player in terms of positive impact on a team. This current team also seems less dug in in terms of inability to make moves than the Butler team. But they should have tried with Jimmy in hindsight. Zach has to be better to get into those kinds of scenarios of regret.

Is Butler worth a max with how trash Miami is this season? He has less of chance to make the all-star game than Zach. What about Beal? Luka? All the years Anthony failed to anything in New Orleans. There are very few players that make a team a winner on their own. Hell even Lebron missed the playoffs his first season in Los Angeles. Until we see LaVine with a competent team around him(we had one this season before our glass men broke again) I’m not judging him on the team’s success. He is basically the only reason we are competitive every night right now. Put Beal, Booker or Butler and here and doubt the results are any better. Because two of their teams have worse records.

To hold team roster circumstances positive or negative to named players and then pay them accordingly has never been the NBA way. They are evaluated and paid best as can be done on projected in-game impact. Measured any way you like. I do believe a number of those players mentioned will have more impact. Max deals are capped now, but no FO would pay Giannis based on how many games his team could win relative to his roster currently. Or in the past. Its about player quality. The difference we are having in this debate is that while Zach has elevated his game, he still wouldn’t be a great max deal to have based on his current impact imo. We aren’t talking about wins here. Raw impact projections during games on a generic team. In a couple years, we will see where he is. He is going in the right direction, Ill give him that. Definitely an all star.

Fair enough.

[DuckIII]

I don’t say this as a critic of those who voted against keeping Zach, because I understand the reluctance heading into this season.

But it would be interesting to see what this poll would look like rebooted. I went from being flexible about trading him to believing I would only trade him for an obscene haul that probably no team would offer. His evolution this season has been amazing. And I don’t think he’s done getting better.

P.S. At his current level of play at age 25 he’s a no brainer max deal. You just print off the standard form and politely ask him to sign it.

[coldfish]

You could trade Zach for 3 top 10 picks and likely not get a player as good as Zach. Win or lose, he has personally made the games now entertaining.

What the Bulls need is a big man to pair with Zach. Not a PG or another wing. A legit big who can create his own shot and pass well. Get Zach and that guy together and fill out the roster with role players like Thad and Temple and you might be on to something.

[DuckIII]

You could trade Zach for 3 top 10 picks and likely not get a player as good as Zach. Win or lose, he has personally made the games now entertaining.

What the Bulls need is a big man to pair with Zach. Not a PG or another wing. A legit big who can create his own shot and pass well. Get Zach and that guy together and fill out the roster with role players like Thad and Temple and you might be on to something.

He does need that. But it’s not “not a point guard.” He badly needs one of those too. And so does Coby White. And so does Willy.

Hypothetical: How much better would this team’s future look if we had a guy like Halliburton? I put Lonzo in that category too but as I recall you are not a fan. Regardless, a distributing PG who defends would do wonders for Zach.

I agree he’s reached the point you basically just don’t trade him. I was a strong advocate of trading Butler and rebuilding, but it had nothing to do with Butler’s quality. The team had no quality young talent around him to either develop or trade, and was just good enough to kill the value of their own draft picks.

In Zach’s case the Bulls do have young assets to trade or develop (or both) and is so young and inconsistent that Zach’s presence alone does not make us the dreaded 43 win team.

And he’s a good guy and quality leader. And he’s 25.

[DuckIII]

Wrong thread.

[coldfish]

You could trade Zach for 3 top 10 picks and likely not get a player as good as Zach. Win or lose, he has personally made the games now entertaining.

What the Bulls need is a big man to pair with Zach. Not a PG or another wing. A legit big who can create his own shot and pass well. Get Zach and that guy together and fill out the roster with role players like Thad and Temple and you might be on to something.

He does need that. But it’s not “not a point guard.” He badly needs one of those too. And so does Coby White. And so does Willy.

Hypothetical: How much better would this team’s future look if we had a guy like Halliburton? I put Lonzo in that category too but as I recall you are not a fan. Regardless, a distributing PG who defends would do wonders for Zach.

I agree he’s reached the point you basically just don’t trade him. I was a strong advocate of trading Butler and rebuilding, but it had nothing to do with Butler’s quality. The team had no quality young talent around him to either develop or trade, and was just good enough to kill the value of their own draft picks.

In Zach’s case the Bulls do have young assets to trade or develop (or both) and is so young and inconsistent that Zach’s presence alone does not make us the dreaded 43 win team.

And he’s a good guy and quality leader. And he’s 25.

In my vision, you would have an inside outside game. The big would be a point forward who Zach could play off of just like the big plays off Zach. In that scenario, there is no ball time left for a PG. You are just looking for a Steve Kerr type to bring the ball up and get out of the way. Who that player is, I don't know but if I was GM it would be my primary focus.

Just in general, the Bulls need to keep money in mind. With Zach likely a max player, you aren't going to be able to afford to surround him with $20m per year players. Its got to be two max types and role players.

I agree about the Butler / Zach difference. The Bulls' cupboard was completely empty at one point. Its not now.

[DuckIII]

Cold, my only issue with that is the paucity of bigs who fit that role. Where do you get one? I agree a core of Zach, Willy to develop, and a Jokic type would be a fantastic path forward. But how do you get the big?

[FriedRise]

I'd need at least a Jrue holiday package (player + 2 FRPs + 2 pick swaps) to even start the conversation of trading Zach. Even then, that might still give me pause because I don't want the picks to be in the high 20s, which is likely the case if he's traded to a contender. If/when Zach becomes an All Star this year, that price goes even higher because of his age and upside. I do think he still has yet another gear to get to if he doesn't have to constantly create and take so many tough contested shots. To do what he's been doing with such incredibly high efficiency is simply amazing.

What I've maintained that I prefer the Bulls to do is to build around Zach. Pair him with another star and then load the roster with playmakers and 3&Ds. That's how you maximize his potential (elite scoring) and minimize his deficiencies (playmaking, defense). Defense is important, but consistent elite scoring is that much harder to find and is at a premium in today's NBA. In terms of building a contending roster, I think it's easier to find players who can defend or reliable bigs with size. And they're not gonna cost that much.

[coldfish]

Cold, my only issue with that is the paucity of bigs who fit that role. Where do you get one? I agree a core of Zach, Willy to develop, and a Jokic type would be a fantastic path forward. But how do you get the big?

Good question.

I think we are beyond the draft. Zach's window is basically now. You can't draft a guy and expect him to be an elite player over the next few years. You can either try to identify some gem in the rough and get him in free agency or by trade or just go all in on a trade.

I'll bring up a few names:
Julius Randle has bounced around a lot but he is only 26. He is having a great year and is going to be a free agent. The Bulls could just outright sign him. He is actually one of the league leaders in assists for the PF position. Julius Randle + Zach doesn't strike fear in the hearts of many people but with the right role players, you might get some great synergy.

Aaron Gordon has been rather disappointing and the Magic are going down. His name has come up in trades already. Again, this is another situation where you hope that some synergy forms that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. He is 25 like Zach and is a well rounded player who might shine in the right system.

KAT would be the really big fish. He has won nothing in Minnesota and that team is going nowhere. They aren't going to be able to keep him. He is on a long term deal though. If he were to indicate he wasn't happy, the Bulls could go all in and trade Lauri, Wendell, 3 picks and 2 draft swaps for him and then try to build a winner. Lavine and KAT would be a defensive concern but on offense they would be a perfect inside/outside threat where you truly just have to fill out the team with roleplayers.

There are many others. The permutations here are significant. On the inside, I would love to see what a Lavine/KAT team could do with a good coach and complimentary teammates.

Let's be honest though. The Bulls aren't going to get Antonio Davis or the Joker or Embiid. Whomever Chicago gets is going to have warts and be a risky move with clear concerns.