Is Fred VanVleet an all star?

everdiso · Post #161 » by **everdiso** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:39 am

Rastas wrote:
everdiso wrote:Give me one actual argument as to why Simmons deserves a spot over VanVleet.
Just watch the game between them tomorrow.
All your answers will be laid out before you.

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We've watched many games between Simmons and vanvleet.

The answers have been laid out clearly.

everdiso · Post #162 » by **everdiso** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:42 am

Johnny Bball wrote:
Rastas wrote:
everdiso wrote:Give me one actual argument as to why Simmons deserves a spot over VanVleet.
Just watch the game between them tomorrow.
All your answers will be laid out before you.

Sent from my SM-G986B using RealGM mobile app

WTF, simmons is far better.

What is he better at?

Post #163 » by **Reeko** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:44 am

everdiso wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
Rastas wrote:Just watch the game between them tomorrow.
All your answers will be laid out before you.

Sent from my SM-G986B using RealGM mobile app

WTF, simmons is far better.

What is he better at?

Finishing at the rim :lol:

RB34 · Post #164 » by **RB34** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:46 am

No, I don’t really see the argument as to why he should be in over the other guys.

BIGJ1ER · Post #165 » by **BIGJ1ER** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:55 am

Reeko wrote:
everdiso wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
WTF, simmons is far better.

What is he better at?

Finishing at the rim

Not sure if troll, but his athleticism, rim pressure, playmaking and defence are far greater than FVV. Obviously more dangerous/better as a screener, but that's just a function of also needing to do it to stay effective off the ball.

FVV is a good player and obviously a far better shooter.

IzzyT · Post #166 » by **IzzyT** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 am

I can’t understand why people continue to use RPM-variants as if they are some definitive argument winning statistic.

No one ever acknowledges some of the ridiculous stuff it spits out so long as it generally looks ok.

Some of the best players in the NBA this year according to ESPN RPM:
2) CJ McCollum
14) Devonte’ Graham
16) Lonzo Ball
18) Fred Van Vleet (Lowry also Top 10, weird about their record with 3 top 25 guys, eh?)
24) Patty Mills
25) Chris Boucher

This is not a reliable one-season statistic. When will people accept that? Even across multiple seasons, the priors build in assumptions to make it more palatable to the eye test.

This stat is not a freaking argument clincher.

theonlyclutch · Post #167 » by **theonlyclutch** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:16 am

IzzyT wrote:I can’t understand why people continue to use RPM-variants as if they are some definitive argument winning statistic.

No one ever acknowledges some of the ridiculous stuff it spits out so long as it generally looks ok.

Some of the best players in the NBA this year according to ESPN RPM:
2) CJ McCollum
14) Devonte’ Graham
16) Lonzo Ball
18) Fred Van Vleet (Lowry also Top 10, weird about their record with 3 top 25 guys, eh?)
24) Patty Mills
25) Chris Boucher

This is not a reliable one-season statistic. When will people accept that? Even across multiple seasons, the priors build in assumptions to make it more palatable to the eye test.

This stat is not a freaking argument clincher.

Robert Covington is now pissed he got jobbed out of multiple ASGs for empty stats guys like Demar Derozan.

DroseReturnChi · Post #168 » by **DroseReturnChi** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:17 am

VanWest82 wrote:This debate reminds me so much of the Derozan vs. Lowry debates from 5-6 years ago. The majority of NBA fans were sure Derozan was the better player because his stats looked better (He averaged 27 ppg!), and Raptors fans were screaming at the top of their lungs that Lowry easily impacted winning more. DD has two All NBA nods to Lowry's one. Siakam even has one over him. It's a disgrace.

Now Fred has taken over the mantle of the no stats all star who influences winning way more than a lot of these DH all stars but doesn't get the credit for it. People are still too easily influenced by raw stats and shooting splits.

Not that these are a bunch better, but...

RPM: FVV +3.87, Lavine +0.49
LEBRON: FVV +3.16, Lavine +0.23
RAPTOR: FVV +6.8, Lavine +1.8

Any of the advanced stats that don't rely on offensive box score and actually look at defense say Fred is a way better player.

Lavine gets destroyed in every advanced stat its not even funny. when you have that many compiled data against you, something is very wrong.

PistolPeteJR · Post #169 » by **PistolPeteJR** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:22 am

mademan wrote:
Karate Diop wrote:Over who? I can't see the argument...

Simmons/Harden/Lavine are probably the bench guards. He has an argument over Lavine, for sure, but thats even assuming 3 guards are picked (tho Simmons might be seen as a forward)

He does not have an argument over Lavine.

dkb9696 · Post #170 » by **dkb9696** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:23 am

The Bulls should have offered VanVleet 100 million, 4 year deal this offseason and make the Raptors think about matching or not. VanVleet pairing with Lavine would have been an excellent backcourt to build around. Wendell Carter, Jr., Lauri Markkanen ,Coby White and draft picks could have allowed Arturas Karnisovas to shake up the roster to build around the backcourt. I was worried that the Bulls would be the biggest threat to pry VanVleet away from the Raptors. Thankfully, they were not interested.

PistolPeteJR · Post #171 » by **PistolPeteJR** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:24 am

everdiso wrote:VanVleet is better than Simmons by every measure.

Lol, no he’s not. He’s a good defender, but about two tiers below Simmons on that front. Come on.

everdiso · Post #172 » by **everdiso** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:25 am

PistolPeteJR wrote:
everdiso wrote:VanVleet is better than Simmons by every measure.

Lol, no he’s not. He’s a good defender, but about two tiers below Simmons on that front. Come on.

He's an elite defender, by every measure.

PistolPeteJR · Post #173 » by **PistolPeteJR** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:26 am

old skool wrote:I don't see Lavine as vastly better than Van Vleet, but the "Bulls are better when he sits" argument ignores context.

The Bulls are force feeding their youth. No team starting Coby White at PG is serious about the present. The Bulls are better when they sit their youth in place of serviceable vets like Satoransky, Porter and Young, but instead they are thinking forward.

Toronto probably deserves an All-Star based on their play, but they are the prototypical "sum is better than its parts" team.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Have you actually watched the Bulls this year? Coby is playing pretty decently.

dkb9696 · Post #174 » by **dkb9696** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:34 am

everdiso wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
everdiso wrote:VanVleet is better than Simmons by every measure.

Lol, no he’s not. He’s a good defender, but about two tiers below Simmons on that front. Come on.

He's an elite defender, by every measure.

VanVleet should be in consideration to be named to an NBA All-Defensive Team . Simmons should be in consideration for the NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award.

PistolPeteJR · Post #175 » by **PistolPeteJR** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:35 am

Duffman100 wrote:
SF_Warriors wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
Of course he will because it's a show. His point was that FRED VanVLEET is the better player. And he's right.

Lavine ranks higher in BPM, VORP, WS/48

While FVV has better defensive adv stats and is unquestionably the better defensive player, Lavine seems to be rated higher overall according to those metrics, which is derived from both sides of the court. Lavine has a TS of nearly 65%.. that is like superstar scoring efficiency. Not saying he is a superstar but he should be rewarded for having a great year as well. Lavine has a much worse supporting cast, but his team is only 2 games behind the raps.

Hilariously, I've actually been coveting Lavine for a while for the Raps

I’d trade for him in a heartbeat. Putting him next to Fred, OG, Siakam would be legit.

Lowry + Powell + 1st for Lavine and Porter Jr?

Johnny Bball · Post #176 » by **Johnny Bball** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:41 am

everdiso wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
Rastas wrote:Just watch the game between them tomorrow.
All your answers will be laid out before you.

Sent from my SM-G986B using RealGM mobile app

WTF, simmons is far better.

What is he better at?

The one that ends this discussion? Defending.

Johnny Bball · Post #177 » by **Johnny Bball** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:43 am

IzzyT wrote:I can’t understand why people continue to use RPM-variants as if they are some definitive argument winning statistic.

No idea. But its naive. And its hardly why anyone considers FVV to be a good player.

jordanwilliams6 · Post #178 » by **jordanwilliams6** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:43 am

PistolPeteJR wrote:
old skool wrote:I don't see Lavine as vastly better than Van Vleet, but the "Bulls are better when he sits" argument ignores context.

The Bulls are force feeding their youth. No team starting Coby White at PG is serious about the present. The Bulls are better when they sit their youth in place of serviceable vets like Satoransky, Porter and Young, but instead they are thinking forward.

Toronto probably deserves an All-Star based on their play, but they are the prototypical "sum is better than its parts" team.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Have you actually watched the Bulls this year? Coby is playing pretty decently.

Have you watched the Bulls this year? Coby has been an absolute train wreck at times this year. He's look better in the most recent stretch because he's been relegated to mostly off ball now. He's been pretty brutal for the most part with some hot games every now and then.

PistolPeteJR · Post #179 » by **PistolPeteJR** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:43 am

everdiso wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
everdiso wrote:VanVleet is better than Simmons by every measure.

Lol, no he’s not. He’s a good defender, but about two tiers below Simmons on that front. Come on.

He's an elite defender, by every measure.

You’re moving the goalposts. Reread what you said that I responded to.

Johnny Bball · Post #180 » by **Johnny Bball** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:46 am

dkb9696 wrote:
everdiso wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
Lol, no he’s not. He’s a good defender, but about two tiers below Simmons on that front. Come on.

He's an elite defender, by every measure.

VanVleet should be in consideration to be named to an NBA All-Defensive Team . Simmons should be in consideration for the NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award.

This