Better passer Jokic or Bird

[Wagonband]

They had surprisingly similar touch on their passes. You can see the same type of thought process with them finding the angles and such.

Definitely a close call, people just get touchy when a legend is "threatened" by a new player. So if it would be 50/50 in the poll it would mean Jokic is the better passer

[Clyde Frazier]

[dhsilv2]

Bird and Jokic (and Magic and Nash and maybe a few other players) threw passes my mortal brain was unable to predict or comprehend without using magic (replaying it over and over again for years). Who am I to judge the gods? I can pick my favorite, but i'll never be smart enough to ascertain who was better. There are interesting differences between these players, in terms of what kinds of passes they threw, how they generated their passing, on-ball/off-ball passing, what other skills contributed to the threat of their passing etc. But trying to construct a reasonable argument for one of these guys being better than another is hard imo. They're the Mount Olympus of passers.

I agree but I would personally add LeBron and Chris Paul to your list as well. Than it starts to get harder to find passers as great as them. Though I'm sure there are a couple.

Manu is easily on the list.

[dhsilv2]

I voted Bird but with hesitance.

The only passer I would have over them both with certainty is Magic. I think it's something like:

Magic
Bird
Jokic
Nash

HM: Kidd, Stockton

Edit: HHM: Lebron, CP3

^Did I mis anyone?

I made the same list and can't believe I managed to forget about Kidd and Stockon. Wow. I feel dumb.

Watch on YouTube

[SonicMcMahon]

I voted Bird but with hesitance.

The only passer I would have over them both with certainty is Magic. I think it's something like:

Magic
Bird
Jokic
Nash

HM: Kidd, Stockton

Edit: HHM: Lebron, CP3

^Did I mis anyone?

I made the same list and can't believe I managed to forget about Kidd and Stockon. Wow. I feel dumb.

tbh I don't have Lebron, Cp3, stockton or Kidd quite in the same tier. Things obviously get a bit subjective because it's not like i'm basing this off numbers (assists, asst to turnover, asst % or even fancier box creation methods). Also, it goes without saying that these guys are all incredible passers, absolute no debate all-time greats. But I think the 4 mentioned (Magic, Bird, Jokic, Nash) had an extra somethin somethin. A big part of that I think was a risk factor. The big 4 all had a bit of a psycho edge to their passing where they were not afraid of the turnover. They all attempt(ed) high degree difficulty passes on a consistent basis. I view the next tier, which all those guys are in, as being genius passer floor-generals who were a little risk-averse. Great decision makers who put an emphasis on making the right pass all the time while controlling the offense to the best of their ability. Ultimately, I find each of these guys a bit conservative in their offensive style (for better or for worse). This is a bit of weird way of putting it, but I always felt the big 4 are constantly... pushing on the defense, leaning on it, keeping the pressure on it at all times. Whereas CP3/Lebron types are more probing trying to find the right opportunity to attack, or find the best way to draw the defense in to create a passing opportunity. Both/all these styles are valid, and all have been part of great offenses (Kidd to a lesser extent over his career due to his lack of scoring threat). But I do reserve the top tier for those 4 players, who I think are a micro-level up from everybody else in terms of how consistently they were able to threaten the defense with the pass. The improvisational energy just feels so constant with them, where the next tier down it feels like they have that energy slightly less of the time.

Really great articulation of what 'feels right' about those 4 above the others. (Consider more paragraphs though, I feel not everyone is gonna read that!)

[SonicMcMahon]

Another baller to consider is Arvydas Sabonis. It's harder to place him because his NBA stint as a playmaker was notable but not otherwordly.

[The Rebel]

Bird. There's nobody in the NBA atm ahead of him in passing. Something I like about the comparison is both guys use(d) a lot of touch passes whete they're passing and catching in one motion.

Lebron

Lebron cannot pass like Bird or Jokic.

[Ben-N1ce]

The fact that this is a question means Jokic is obviously an incredible passer.

[Nazrmohamed]

The paint was more crowded in Bird's day, so his interior passing had a greater degree of difficulty. He also was an elite outlet passer and, when running the floor himself, part of the Celtics' no-dribble fast breaks.

I think that all puts him a little ahead of Jokic ... but yes, this is the correct comparison, as I've been (one of the people who's been) saying for a while.

Yeah I'm hearing alot of guys take it too far by saying there's nobody in Bird or even Jokics tier in terms of passing. I mean, there's plenty of PGs who pass better than both of them. It's literally a PGs job.....well, maybe less so now but up until about 5 yrs ago it was literally thier job.

However amongst non-PGs sure I'd put them near the top and I like the caveat you mentioned. Ya know it's one thing standing at the top of the key, waiting for a pick and whipping it out to shooters or eve getting your assist by feeding a dominant player. What makes what Bird and Jokic so fun is they pass out of the post and are so crafty at it. If I had to put someone in yodays nba anywhere close maybe it'd be Bam Adebeyo but hes still not at thier level.

Historically guys like Vlade Divac or Arvitas Sabonis come to mind.

[cupcakesnake]

I made the same list and can't believe I managed to forget about Kidd and Stockon. Wow. I feel dumb.

tbh I don't have Lebron, Cp3, stockton or Kidd quite in the same tier. Things obviously get a bit subjective because it's not like i'm basing this off numbers (assists, asst to turnover, asst % or even fancier box creation methods). Also, it goes without saying that these guys are all incredible passers, absolute no debate all-time greats. But I think the 4 mentioned (Magic, Bird, Jokic, Nash) had an extra somethin somethin. A big part of that I think was a risk factor. The big 4 all had a bit of a psycho edge to their passing where they were not afraid of the turnover. They all attempt(ed) high degree difficulty passes on a consistent basis. I view the next tier, which all those guys are in, as being genius passer floor-generals who were a little risk-averse. Great decision makers who put an emphasis on making the right pass all the time while controlling the offense to the best of their ability. Ultimately, I find each of these guys a bit conservative in their offensive style (for better or for worse). This is a bit of weird way of putting it, but I always felt the big 4 are constantly... pushing on the defense, leaning on it, keeping the pressure on it at all times. Whereas CP3/Lebron types are more probing trying to find the right opportunity to attack, or find the best way to draw the defense in to create a passing opportunity. Both/all these styles are valid, and all have been part of great offenses (Kidd to a lesser extent over his career due to his lack of scoring threat). But I do reserve the top tier for those 4 players, who I think are a micro-level up from everybody else in terms of how consistently they were able to threaten the defense with the pass. The improvisational energy just feels so constant with them, where the next tier down it feels like they have that energy slightly less of the time.

Really great articulation of what 'feels right' about those 4 above the others. (Consider more paragraphs though, I feel not everyone is gonna read that!)

One giant paragraph with questionable punctuation felt about right with how organized my brain was with this one. Pure 100% ramble!

Another baller to consider is Arvydas Sabonis. It's harder to place him because his NBA stint as a playmaker was notable but not otherwordly.

Tbh, always assumed Sabonis belonged in the highest tier of passers, mostly based on growing up watching him throw slick behind the head/back passes to the baseline. Years later, and many hours of Sabonis footage later, I think he's not quite as good as his reputation suggests. While the behind the back passes out of the post are really cool looking, I don't think they're super high up on the totum poll of degree of difficulty. They're always feet set, ball static, to a cutter who has beat his man back door. In available footage of Sabonis from international competitions, he's clearly a talented and creative passer, but a bit of a turnover machine. He clearly loved to pass the ball and always wanted to go for a risky pass. He seemed to have as many misses as makes by my eye (I didn't have stats for these games). Young Sabonis was a monster athlete, a giant with immense run and jump speed, and I bet he averaged 6 blocks per game in the USSR and even against the States (David Robinson looked like Andrew Wiggins next to him). The skill set was tantalizing, but much rawer than I expected based on his reputation.

(new paragraph)
While Sabonis is one of the best passing bigs to ever play, I don't think he stacks up as anything near Jokic and Bird level. I'd put him in a class with a ton of great NBA point guards. But I honestly think some other bigs were better: The Gasols, Vlade, Bill Walton and Boris Diaw. This is my totally subjective opinion on the limited amout of Sabonis footage available.

[cupcakesnake]

The paint was more crowded in Bird's day, so his interior passing had a greater degree of difficulty. He also was an elite outlet passer and, when running the floor himself, part of the Celtics' no-dribble fast breaks.

I think that all puts him a little ahead of Jokic ... but yes, this is the correct comparison, as I've been (one of the people who's been) saying for a while.

Yeah I'm hearing alot of guys take it too far by saying there's nobody in Bird or even Jokics tier in terms of passing. I mean, there's plenty of PGs who pass better than both of them. It's literally a PGs job.....well, maybe less so now but up until about 5 yrs ago it was literally thier job.

However amongst non-PGs sure I'd put them near the top and I like the caveat you mentioned. Ya know it's one thing standing at the top of the key, waiting for a pick and whipping it out to shooters or eve getting your assist by feeding a dominant player. What makes what Bird and Jokic so fun is they pass out of the post and are so crafty at it. If I had to put someone in yodays nba anywhere close maybe it'd be Bam Adebeyo but hes still not at thier level.

Historically guys like Vlade Divac or Arvitas Sabonis come to mind.

On one hand, I agree. If we made a list of the top 50 passers ever, maybe 40 or more of those guys would be point guards. On the flipside of that coin, a lot of point guards get overrated as passers because the wrack up assists way easier. This is because primary ball handlers are most often in assist getting positions. Off-ball action designed to free up an elite shooter, who passes to them? They get an assist for that. Drive and kick, pick & roll, are all big assist producing plays. This doesn't make them objectively better passers. Assists are sometimes a hazard of the job, and we've seen very mediocre passers average 7+ assists per game over a season. I honestly have a hard time rating guys like Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton, KJ, Scott Skiles... even Russell Westbrook.

Bird and Jokic do not fit the "pass out of the post and are so crafty at it". Jokic and Bird threw/throw passes from everywhere on the court. Yes they're good at post-passing and that's a common situation for them to be in, but they also did it off the dribble, in pick & roll, in transition... just everywhere. Don't lump them in with the Joakim Noahs of the world.

I do think passing bigs can get a little overrated for making flashy passes out of the post. Shaq wasn't a super skilled passer, but his passing was so impactful because his willingness to pass made offenses built around him unstoppable. The static passing of Kareem and Bill Walton might be overrated sometimes, but these guys found cutters like no other centers were. The Gasols and Vlade Divac... I honestly think they have much better passing chops than the average big.

There are some non-point guard passer that I think are some of the best passers in the world, regardless of assist numbers. Jokic and Bird are two of the best ever. Manu is top 10 for me. Boris Diaw is in my top 20. All these guys I think are better than a lot of big assist point guards.

[Ballerhogger]

Bird. There's nobody in the NBA atm ahead of him in passing. Something I like about the comparison is both guys use(d) a lot of touch passes whete they're passing and catching in one motion.

Lebron

Lebron cannot pass like Bird or Jokic.

Lol!!! You haven’t watched Lebron very much to say that ... he’s making bullets passes form other side of the court

[Ballerhogger]

Watch on YouTube

[SNPA]

Watch on YouTube

I love it when people do this.

I watched the first two minutes. Some really good passes. But throwing lobs to AD, dive and kick to where the double comes from and long outlets while you are unguarded and facing forward (even on point) aren’t in the realm of Bird. It’s just not. It’s mistaking high quality and quantity for genius. James sees the floor really well, especially later in his career, but he simply doesn’t have the same chip in his brain as Bird. LeBron learned to be a great passer, Larry was born a legend at it.

[Ballerhogger]

Watch on YouTube

I love it when people do this.

I watched the first two minutes. Some really good passes. But throwing lobs to AD, dive and kick to where the double comes from and long outlets while you are unguarded and facing forward (even on point) aren’t in the realm of Bird. It’s just not. It’s mistaking high quality and quantity for genius. James sees the floor really well, especially later in his career, but he simply doesn’t have the same chip in his brain as Bird. LeBron learned to be a great passer, Larry was born a legend at it.

“[Former Pacers’ GM David] Morway was trying to get me to trade for them [J.J. Hickson and a selection of other teammates of James], but I ain’t takin’ any of them **** guys up there,” Lowe said, quoting Bird from Thomsen’s book, The Soul of Basketball. “I said ‘you don’t understand son. Them guys playing with LeBron James look a whole lot better than what they really are.'”

[Nazrmohamed]

The paint was more crowded in Bird's day, so his interior passing had a greater degree of difficulty. He also was an elite outlet passer and, when running the floor himself, part of the Celtics' no-dribble fast breaks.

I think that all puts him a little ahead of Jokic ... but yes, this is the correct comparison, as I've been (one of the people who's been) saying for a while.

Yeah I'm hearing alot of guys take it too far by saying there's nobody in Bird or even Jokics tier in terms of passing. I mean, there's plenty of PGs who pass better than both of them. It's literally a PGs job.....well, maybe less so now but up until about 5 yrs ago it was literally thier job.

However amongst non-PGs sure I'd put them near the top and I like the caveat you mentioned. Ya know it's one thing standing at the top of the key, waiting for a pick and whipping it out to shooters or eve getting your assist by feeding a dominant player. What makes what Bird and Jokic so fun is they pass out of the post and are so crafty at it. If I had to put someone in yodays nba anywhere close maybe it'd be Bam Adebeyo but hes still not at thier level.

Historically guys like Vlade Divac or Arvitas Sabonis come to mind.

On one hand, I agree. If we made a list of the top 50 passers ever, maybe 40 or more of those guys would be point guards. On the flipside of that coin, a lot of point guards get overrated as passers because the wrack up assists way easier. This is because primary ball handlers are most often in assist getting positions. Off-ball action designed to free up an elite shooter, who passes to them? They get an assist for that. Drive and kick, pick & roll, are all big assist producing plays. This doesn't make them objectively better passers. Assists are sometimes a hazard of the job, and we've seen very mediocre passers average 7+ assists per game over a season. I honestly have a hard time rating guys like Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton, KJ, Scott Skiles... even Russell Westbrook.

Bird and Jokic do not fit the "pass out of the post and are so crafty at it". Jokic and Bird threw/throw passes from everywhere on the court. Yes they're good at post-passing and that's a common situation for them to be in, but they also did it off the dribble, in pick & roll, in transition... just everywhere. Don't lump them in with the Joakim Noahs of the world.

I do think passing bigs can get a little overrated for making flashy passes out of the post. Shaq wasn't a super skilled passer, but his passing was so impactful because his willingness to pass made offenses built around him unstoppable. The static passing of Kareem and Bill Walton might be overrated sometimes, but these guys found cutters like no other centers were. The Gasols and Vlade Divac... I honestly think they have much better passing chops than the average big.

There are some non-point guard passer that I think are some of the best passers in the world, regardless of assist numbers. Jokic and Bird are two of the best ever. Manu is top 10 for me. Boris Diaw is in my top 20. All these guys I think are better than a lot of big assist point guards.

I dont agree with all of it but you got me on most of it. Curious where you rate someone like Lamar Odom, Kevin Garnett or Draymond Green

[SNPA]

Watch on YouTube

I love it when people do this.

I watched the first two minutes. Some really good passes. But throwing lobs to AD, dive and kick to where the double comes from and long outlets while you are unguarded and facing forward (even on point) aren’t in the realm of Bird. It’s just not. It’s mistaking high quality and quantity for genius. James sees the floor really well, especially later in his career, but he simply doesn’t have the same chip in his brain as Bird. LeBron learned to be a great passer, Larry was born a legend at it.

“[Former Pacers’ GM David] Morway was trying to get me to trade for them [J.J. Hickson and a selection of other teammates of James], but I ain’t takin’ any of them **** guys up there,” Lowe said, quoting Bird from Thomsen’s book, The Soul of Basketball. “I said ‘you don’t understand son. Them guys playing with LeBron James look a whole lot better than what they really are.'”

Yes, James has earned a lot of guys a lot of money by making them look better than they are. Doesn’t change the equation. Bird has other worldly vision and anticipation.

[Kilroy]

INB4 "Better Center Jokic or Kareem"

[Johnny Firpo]

INB4 "Better Center Jokic or Kareem"

What a ridiculous and unnecessary comment. Like even suggesting that the two questions are remotely close.

[Vladimir777]

Bird and Jokic (and Magic and Nash and maybe a few other players) threw passes my mortal brain was unable to predict or comprehend without using magic (replaying it over and over again for years). Who am I to judge the gods? I can pick my favorite, but i'll never be smart enough to ascertain who was better. There are interesting differences between these players, in terms of what kinds of passes they threw, how they generated their passing, on-ball/off-ball passing, what other skills contributed to the threat of their passing etc. But trying to construct a reasonable argument for one of these guys being better than another is hard imo. They're the Mount Olympus of passers.

You put this very well, and I think it's the sign of an intelligent person to admit when they don't know the answer. I agree with you (and no, I'm not humble-bragging and calling myself intelligent, LOL), so I didn't vote on this. I just can't determine who is the better passer between the two. It's beyond my level of analysis, but more directly, I definitely haven't viewed enough footage of either of them to determine who is better. I would imagine it would take a lot of comparison and looking at film to see who was better.

It's insane that Jokic is already at that level, though. One of my favorite players in the league. It's interesting how his polo background (common among people from where he grew up) influenced his style of passing, too.