Better passer Jokic or Bird

[limbo]

Why do people put Bird in the same tier as Magic as a passer? I'm confused.

Bird was never used as a volume playmaker the same way Magic was. Magic would create passing opportunities, especially in the halfcourt, far more regularly than Bird did. His game was more based on getting to the paint, putting pressure on the defense to converge and then finding someone, while Bird's offensive game was more rooted in off-ball movement and shooting.

Bird's main problem as a passer was always that he was limited in his ability to dribble pass the first line of defense, which creates more obvious passing lanes to use for easy buckets. His creativity made up for it to a large extent, but ultimately, i'd never put him on the same tier as someone like Magic, who arguably had the same type of creativity, he was just much better at creating passing opportunities.

Jokic is an interesting comparison to Bird as a passer, they are more similar than Bird and Magic in that sense, but it's hard to judge them because of era differences. Jokic plays in a much more sophisticated environment with more space in the halfcourt, which could contribute to his passing success, but Bird was spamming a lot of his assists on the fastbreak in a messy 80's era.

[Muha_i_samolet]

Jokic by a huge margin.

That's absolutely baseless statement...

Numbers prove it and I believe my eyes as well.

[Pg81]

Jokic by a huge margin.

That's absolutely baseless statement...

Numbers prove it and I believe my eyes as well.

No.

[70sFan]

Jokic by a huge margin.

That's absolutely baseless statement...

Numbers prove it and I believe my eyes as well.

What numbers exactly...?

[Goose egg]

Can I split the difference and say Larry is a much better passer in a vacuum but Jokic’s passing is more impressive because of his size/position?

[HollowEarth]

Lebron

Lebron cannot pass like Bird or Jokic.

Agree, he is quite better. Clearly better than Jokic, better by a hair to Bird.
No one draws attention like James headed to the rim, agreed? Who can put a pass right on the money, In rhythm like Lebron. Fastbreak, ISO, fancy passes, at the very least he is in the same room as these guys, saying other wise is just blind hate and disrespect IMO.

That's actually why I'd rank him lower as a passer. A lot of Lebron's best passing starts after he collapses the defense. This is absolutely the correct play for somebody that can put pressure on the defense like Lebron can. He forces the defense to collapse onto him and swings the ball. He is a very good passer but the type of passes he's making are not as difficult as Bird, or even CP3 and Jokic.

To rank Lebron as the best at passing, you have to include other aspects of his game (handles, finishing at the rim, etc.) as part of his passing game.

[BFitzMoney]

Bird. There's nobody in the NBA atm ahead of him in passing. Something I like about the comparison is both guys use(d) a lot of touch passes whete they're passing and catching in one motion.

Lebron

Bird is a much better passer than Lebron. Lebron may have an edge in assists but they simply aren't the same. Assists are much easier to pick up in this era to begin with. Lebron is no question a special passer just not on Bird's level. James' far superior ability to break his man off the dribble and smash attack the basket, then kick out gets him a ton of his assists. Not knocking it - it's effective and winning basketball. It just doesn't get him to the level of a Bird, Magic, CP3, Nash or Stockton if we are talking about pure passing ability.

[BFitzMoney]

They had surprisingly similar touch on their passes. You can see the same type of thought process with them finding the angles and such.

Definitely a close call, people just get touchy when a legend is "threatened" by a new player. So if it would be 50/50 in the poll it would mean Jokic is the better passer

or it would mean recency bias depending on which agenda you choose.

[BFitzMoney]

The paint was more crowded in Bird's day, so his interior passing had a greater degree of difficulty. He also was an elite outlet passer and, when running the floor himself, part of the Celtics' no-dribble fast breaks.

I think that all puts him a little ahead of Jokic ... but yes, this is the correct comparison, as I've been (one of the people who's been) saying for a while.

Yeah I'm hearing alot of guys take it too far by saying there's nobody in Bird or even Jokics tier in terms of passing. I mean, there's plenty of PGs who pass better than both of them. It's literally a PGs job.....well, maybe less so now but up until about 5 yrs ago it was literally thier job.

However amongst non-PGs sure I'd put them near the top and I like the caveat you mentioned. Ya know it's one thing standing at the top of the key, waiting for a pick and whipping it out to shooters or eve getting your assist by feeding a dominant player. What makes what Bird and Jokic so fun is they pass out of the post and are so crafty at it. If I had to put someone in yodays nba anywhere close maybe it'd be Bam Adebeyo but hes still not at thier level.

Historically guys like Vlade Divac or Arvitas Sabonis come to mind.

Nope - they can both be favorably compared to any point guard as well. Bird in the 80s passed just as well (if not slightly less flashy) as magic - who most consider to be god tier PG.

[limbo]

Bird is a much better passer than Lebron. Lebron may have an edge in assists but they simply aren't the same. Assists are much easier to pick up in this era to begin with. Lebron is no question a special passer just not on Bird's level. James' far superior ability to break his man off the dribble and smash attack the basket, then kick out gets him a ton of his assists. Not knocking it - it's effective and winning basketball. It just doesn't get him to the level of a Bird, Magic, CP3, Nash or Stockton if we are talking about pure passing ability.

Norm Nixon, John Lucas, Johnny Moore, Sleepy Floyd, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, Isiah Thomas... All averaged 10 or more assists per game when Bird was in his prime... Not to mention Magic and Stockton who were getting over 13 apg regularly, which would be absurd even in today's NBA. More players averaged above 10 and 8 apg in 1986 than they do now...

And Bird had the best offensive frontcourt in the league by a landslide with McHale, Parish and Maxwell, on top of having Dennis Johnson and Ainge who was one of the best shooters in the 80s...

Let's not play pretend here... The 80's might have been less sophisticated offensively with less space, but transition defense was weak, Bird was regularly piling up free assists on the break and he had plenty of high level efficient finishers on his roster that could convert on his passing.

[The Rebel]

Lebron

Lebron cannot pass like Bird or Jokic.

Lol!!! You haven’t watched Lebron very much to say that ... he’s making bullets passes form other side of the court

LOL, a obvious basketball fan that has watched the NBA for 40 years has not watched Lebron very much, do you realize how dumb that sounds?

Lebron is the most overrated passer I have ever seen, the fact that people think he belongs in this conversation is a joke. Fact is I don't think you have watched Jokic or Bird, in fact I question how much basketball you have watched over the last 20 years if you think hitting a bullet pass across court is not something that most PGs can do and that Jokic and Bird do every game as well. I have never seen Lebron throw a pass over his head between 2 defenders and hit a cutting teammate in stride. I have never seen Lebron throw a pass between 3 defenders with reverse spin so that it bounces right into their cutting teammates chest on a cut. Lebron's look aways are when his teammates plant in the same spot play after play and he draws the defense in and throws it to the spot, difficult yes, but there are usually a half dozen guys in the league that can hit those passes.

[The Rebel]

Lebron

Lebron cannot pass like Bird or Jokic.

Agree, he is quite better. Clearly better than Jokic, better by a hair to Bird.
No one draws attention like James headed to the rim, agreed? Who can put a pass right on the money, In rhythm like Lebron. Fastbreak, ISO, fancy passes, at the very least he is in the same room as these guys, saying other wise is just blind hate and disrespect IMO.

LMAO the top pgs around the league can hit the passes that Lebron does, you guys are either huge homers or do not watch anybody but Lebron teams play. But calling other haters and saying the truth is disrespect is par for the course these days, as it shows that you know that you have no argument.

[BFitzMoney]

Bird is a much better passer than Lebron. Lebron may have an edge in assists but they simply aren't the same. Assists are much easier to pick up in this era to begin with. Lebron is no question a special passer just not on Bird's level. James' far superior ability to break his man off the dribble and smash attack the basket, then kick out gets him a ton of his assists. Not knocking it - it's effective and winning basketball. It just doesn't get him to the level of a Bird, Magic, CP3, Nash or Stockton if we are talking about pure passing ability.

Norm Nixon, John Lucas, Johnny Moore, Sleepy Floyd, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, Isiah Thomas... All averaged 10 or more assists per game when Bird was in his prime... Not to mention Magic and Stockton who were getting over 13 apg regularly, which would be absurd even in today's NBA. More players averaged above 10 and 8 apg in 1986 than they do now...

And Bird had the best offensive frontcourt in the league by a landslide with McHale, Parish and Maxwell, on top of having Dennis Johnson and Ainge who was one of the best shooters in the 80s...

Let's not play pretend here... The 80's might have been less sophisticated offensively with less space, but transition defense was weak, Bird was regularly piling up free assists on the break and he had plenty of high level efficient finishers on his roster that could convert on his passing.

This just isn't true. Especially mentioning McHale - the Celtics often dumped it into McHale and let him go to work. Bird wasn't getting assists off of that.

Secondly - you listed a bunch of point guards from the 80s - a time when point guards mainly PASSED and didn't score like Bird and act like it's proving your argument in some way.

Third, Bird wasn't "piling up free assists on the break" this is just ridiculous. Assists Bird got on fast breaks were the result of him being a MASTERFUL outlet passer and maybe the best full court passer ever.

In the end none of that matters - there is no question that Larry Joe Bird was a much better passer than Lebron.

[Greyhound]

Bird. There's nobody in the NBA atm ahead of him in passing. Something I like about the comparison is both guys use(d) a lot of touch passes whete they're passing and catching in one motion.

Lebron

Lebron cannot pass like Bird or Jokic.

That is a lie, you just prefer the other two.

[clyde21]

Lebron

Lebron cannot pass like Bird or Jokic.

That is a lie, you just prefer the other two.

hadn't opened this thread yet but knew LeBron had to be have been mentioned somewhere for you to post in it.

[DaPessimist]

Never seen Jokic make the touch passes that Bird used to make.

[SNPA]

LeBron manufactures a lot of his passes in the half court based on his driving. His passing leading the break is something a lot of guys can do. Outlet wise he is good, but not GOAT level.

Jokic is a hub style passer, a better Divac. He tends to hold the ball and hit cutters or put on a little move and hit cutters. He has amazing outlet passing too, rising the ranks quickly. Real quick.

Magic had touch, vision and could pass on dribble. He is the GOAT at leading the break. He has GOAT flare.

Bird is the GOAT touch passer, off ball passer and passing off the cut. IMO Bird has GOAT vision and IQ.

[Big J]

Birdy no question. Also Lebron is a good passer, but most of his passes are to wide open guys because he draws doubles, which isn't that hard to do. Finding guys when nobody is doubling you is a true elite level talent.

[BelgradeNugget]

Never seen Jokic make the touch passes that Bird used to make.

Then start watching him play.

[Greyhound]

Watch on YouTube

I love it when people do this.

I watched the first two minutes. Some really good passes. But throwing lobs to AD, dive and kick to where the double comes from and long outlets while you are unguarded and facing forward (even on point) aren’t in the realm of Bird. It’s just not. It’s mistaking high quality and quantity for genius. James sees the floor really well, especially later in his career, but he simply doesn’t have the same chip in his brain as Bird. LeBron learned to be a great passer, Larry was born a legend at it.

So now it’s an “intelligence” thing.

You don’t see “genius” in LeBron’s ability to pass?

This subject always seems to strike me as a bit subjective (and in some cases suspect).

Whenever people start rattling off their “genius” tier passers there always seems to be a few overarching traits common amongst the entrants.

Magic
Bird
Jokic
Nash
Manu
Sabonis

Why is this?

Why are Chris Paul, Isaiah Thomas, Oscar Robertson and LeBron James not considered genius level like the others?

I think it has to do with the bias that exists against athleticism. If a player is athletic it is assumed that the only reason they are able to do what they do is because of their athletic gifts.

A player who is not recognized as being athletic (who is able to do the same as another player who is athletic) is just assumed to be compensating with their genius level intellect. I think this view is simplistic and wrong.

Just because a player can aid their passing with their natural athleticism, it does not take away from their ability to read defenses, anticipate situations and make incredible passes at a genius level.

Making a high volume of flashy, hot dog passes does not necessarily make your passing better than an individual who tends to make safer more logical passes either. The key is being able to make the read and get the pass on time and on target. Whether you were able to get it there in the most flashy manner possible, or with a simple well timed bounce pass makes zero difference on the score sheet.

———-

I actually think that John Stockton is a great passer (a genius level floor general). Nobody reads him as such because he was no a hot dog. He is not flashy and he makes the simple basic pass with high accuracy. Tempo control and game management are utilizations of “genius” that provide greater impact then simple, spur of the moment improvisational passing.

That along with the passing impresses me more then just technical passing ability and improvisation.

...

On the topic at hand I choose Bird.