Lou Williams: Trade or not to trade?

[Roscoe Sheed]

You take the regular season scoring and all the plus and minus stats out the window. Lou is a liability on defense and gives up more than he can produce. Which means if he's on the team he'll play in the playoffs and that screws things up.

If he isn’t on the team, then Reggie Jackson or Luke Kennard will play in the playoffs. Basically, someone has to play, and none of the current guards are reliable enough on both ends to play. Might as well just keep Lou and the coach can hopefully manage his minutes based on how he is playing and on matchups. Simply trading him just to trade him doesnt’ accomplish anything though.

Beverley is the only one reliable enough on defense, but he’s a pretty limite offensive impact player. If the option was no Williams and someone who isn’t a liability on defense, then yes, but sadly it isn’t. I mean the Clippers could abandon having any backup guards playing, but I’m not sure if that is a better situation.

I somewhat agree- however, one could argue that Jackson is a better overall player than Lou. He is a better spot up 3 point shooter and somewhat better on defense due to his size and athleticism.

[MartinToVaught]

Anyone who's against trading Lou needs to watch this:

https://old.reddit.com/r/LAClippers/comments/m1b1xc/mega_thread_lou_williams_offball_defense_dan/

He simply can't play on any team that's serious about winning. It's time to move on.

[RingColluder]

Anyone who's against trading Lou needs to watch this:

https://old.reddit.com/r/LAClippers/comments/m1b1xc/mega_thread_lou_williams_offball_defense_dan/

He simply can't play on any team that's serious about winning. It's time to move on.

it reminds me a lot of Luke Kennard's defense. not great from either.

not sure who we'd even be able to get back for Lou though... he'd be going to what sort of team? Half the games he seems hungover I doubt we get anything for him of value vs. him going on fire in an occasional game and if not being benched (or not)

[og15]

You take the regular season scoring and all the plus and minus stats out the window. Lou is a liability on defense and gives up more than he can produce. Which means if he's on the team he'll play in the playoffs and that screws things up.

If he isn’t on the team, then Reggie Jackson or Luke Kennard will play in the playoffs. Basically, someone has to play, and none of the current guards are reliable enough on both ends to play. Might as well just keep Lou and the coach can hopefully manage his minutes based on how he is playing and on matchups. Simply trading him just to trade him doesnt’ accomplish anything though.

Beverley is the only one reliable enough on defense, but he’s a pretty limite offensive impact player. If the option was no Williams and someone who isn’t a liability on defense, then yes, but sadly it isn’t. I mean the Clippers could abandon having any backup guards playing, but I’m not sure if that is a better situation.

Besides maybe one good playoffs, Lou has not found much success in the playoffs. Lou was not very good last year. Never saw him miss three layups in a row. Almost felt like he was giving games away.
If Ty can figure out the Lou conundrum then yeah he can actually give us that much needed spark.

Well, I have no argument that Lou is good in the playoffs, and I've argued the opposite in fact, so you are preaching to the choir.

I can't even say he'll be better than Reggie Jackson in the playoffs, he could be, but Reggie has done decently well in the playoffs. My only point is that Clippers have three bench guards who all have an issue for playing them in the playoffs, and for all of them, defense to some degree is one of those issues. Mann the 4th bench guard is the only one who can defend, though he has other short comings.

So unless Lou is traded for a guard who can defend, the bench guard problem doesn't go away by just trading him. Where I lack confidence is that the team can find a trade partner that wants him and sends back a valuable piece.

[esqtvd]

Well, I have no argument that Lou is good in the playoffs, and I've argued the opposite in fact, so you are preaching to the choir.

I can't even say he'll be better than Reggie Jackson in the playoffs, he could be, but Reggie has done decently well in the playoffs. My only point is that Clippers have three bench guards who all have an issue for playing them in the playoffs, and for all of them, defense to some degree is one of those issues. Mann the 4th bench guard is the only one who can defend, though he has other short comings.

So unless Lou is traded for a guard who can defend, the bench guard problem doesn't go away by just trading him. Where I lack confidence is that the team can find a trade partner that wants him and sends back a valuable piece.

If you want a guard who can defend, sign Sindarius. The NBA in 2021 is not about defense, it's about putting the ball in the hole. That's why Sindarius is unemployed again. He can't.

Lou had a FANTASTIC playoffs vs GSW 2 years ago! 21.7 ppg and 7.7 assists. Last year's Mickey Mouse Playoffs proved nothing. Lou just carried us through the last month along with PG. It's time for the rest of this team to stop getting a free ride. Kawhi, PG and Lou are dragging the rest on their backs.

[og15]

Well, I have no argument that Lou is good in the playoffs, and I've argued the opposite in fact, so you are preaching to the choir.

I can't even say he'll be better than Reggie Jackson in the playoffs, he could be, but Reggie has done decently well in the playoffs. My only point is that Clippers have three bench guards who all have an issue for playing them in the playoffs, and for all of them, defense to some degree is one of those issues. Mann the 4th bench guard is the only one who can defend, though he has other short comings.

So unless Lou is traded for a guard who can defend, the bench guard problem doesn't go away by just trading him. Where I lack confidence is that the team can find a trade partner that wants him and sends back a valuable piece.

If you want a guard who can defend, sign Sindarius. The NBA in 2021 is not about defense, it's about putting the ball in the hole. That's why Sindarius is unemployed again. He can't.

Lou had a FANTASTIC playoffs vs GSW 2 years ago! 21.7 ppg and 7.7 assists. Last year's Mickey Mouse Playoffs proved nothing. Lou just carried us through the last month along with PG. It's time for the rest of this team to stop getting a free ride. Kawhi, PG and Lou are dragging the rest on their backs.

Lou has a whole career of data, if that season was the norm, great, but it's not, so citing that one good playoffs consisting of 6 of his 71 playoff games doesn't really make sense as an argument that he's good in the playoffs, especially since he can't have the basically first option role he had in that series on this team.

Lou has played 12 playoff series' and had one good one, and you want to argue that the outlier is the expectation? You realize that last season's "Mickey Mouse" playoffs lined up with all his other 11 series, so why are we taking the outlier as the standard? The other factor is that 2019 was 2 years ago, and Lou is a player in his 30's, which means there's always the expectation of reduced productivity due to age.

His TS% has consistently gone down since 17-18, so there's a possible decline going on. This is similar to Jamal Crawford all over again, the same types of arguments were made, and we kept getting the same results, sorry, I'm not going to be fooled into believing Lou is a good playoff performer.

If Lou performs great in the playoffs, guess what? I'll cheer and be extremely happy, but that doesn't mean I'll expect what should not be expected.

--------

The NBA is and will always be about doing both (offense and defense).

Last 5 champs:

Lakers #3 Drtg
Raptors #5 Drtg
Warriors #11 Drtg (#1 Playoff Drtg)
Warriors #2 Drtg
Cleveland #10 Drtg

The only team out of the top 10 ( barely) was GS who was coasting through the regular season and then had a dominant playoff defense.

The current NBA also offensively isn't simply about putting the ball in the basket, it's about doing it efficiently, hence why Westbrook despite being able to put up numbers is considered one of the league's worst contracts and not tradable. He can certainly put up PPG, but no one cares.

It's even harder to defend now, and teams that can't defend well will still have issues. It's also why guys like Ryan Anderson who you could previously hide and keep for elite shooting are no longer NBA players. Thornwell is not a stopper or elite defensive player AND he's not a reliable shooter. It's not like he's Lugentz Dort on defense. He doesn't have the size to handle so many positions and as far as I remember still fouls too much, so that's a pretty terrible counter example.

A proper counter example is someone like KCP who the Lakers played 29 mpg through their championship run, and you would say "only averaged 10.7 ppg", yes, but he can knock down shots efficiently and defend well. A proper counter example is Lou's own teammate Beverley who can barely create offense but is the starter and the Clippers paid more money to, because he defense and can shoot. A proper counter example is "only 7.6 ppg" Royce O'Neale playing 33 mpg as a starter for the best record in the league Jazz. A proper counter example is Robert Covington averaging 7.9 ppg and starting on Portland despite struggling with his shot through the season.

Then we have Draymond Green who hardly ever puts the ball in the basket, but positively affects the Warriors both offensively with playmaking and defensively, and many other examples including Batum on the Clippers. He’s averaging like 5 ppg.

There's no need to stick our head in the sand about it. There are players who can definitely help you win and pick up slack in the regular season but aren't reliable in the playoffs. It happens, Lou through his career is that player. We don't know what we will get consistently from him in the playoffs offensively and efficiency wise, and his defense is a concern. This is reality, it's not something that has to be debated. Now, whether the team can manage that reality is the question.

[madmaxmedia]

Anyone who's against trading Lou needs to watch this:

https://old.reddit.com/r/LAClippers/comments/m1b1xc/mega_thread_lou_williams_offball_defense_dan/

He simply can't play on any team that's serious about winning. It's time to move on.

I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't want to trade him for better fitting piece, it's just that such a trade opportunity doesn't seem to exist. There's no point to dump him since he is an expiring and does situationally help the team.

I think he has some trade value for the right trade partner, of the sort that packaged with other assets (pick or player) might yield something positive in return. But we have no 1st rounders to trade, and our best trade asset was moved for Luke Kennard.

Purely hypothetically speaking, it would have helped us a lot if we had managed to only trade 4 1sts for Paul George, and had either not traded Shamet or got a better return for him. All that plus Lou then might have given us something good in return.

[esqtvd]

Well, I have no argument that Lou is good in the playoffs, and I've argued the opposite in fact, so you are preaching to the choir.

I can't even say he'll be better than Reggie Jackson in the playoffs, he could be, but Reggie has done decently well in the playoffs. My only point is that Clippers have three bench guards who all have an issue for playing them in the playoffs, and for all of them, defense to some degree is one of those issues. Mann the 4th bench guard is the only one who can defend, though he has other short comings.

So unless Lou is traded for a guard who can defend, the bench guard problem doesn't go away by just trading him. Where I lack confidence is that the team can find a trade partner that wants him and sends back a valuable piece.

If you want a guard who can defend, sign Sindarius. The NBA in 2021 is not about defense, it's about putting the ball in the hole. That's why Sindarius is unemployed again. He can't.

Lou had a FANTASTIC playoffs vs GSW 2 years ago! 21.7 ppg and 7.7 assists. Last year's Mickey Mouse Playoffs proved nothing. Lou just carried us through the last month along with PG. It's time for the rest of this team to stop getting a free ride. Kawhi, PG and Lou are dragging the rest on their backs.

Lou has a whole career of data, if that season was the norm, great, but it's not, so citing that one good playoffs consisting of 6 of his 71 playoff games doesn't really make sense as an argument that he's good in the playoffs, especially since he can't have the basically first option role he had in that series on this team.

Lou has played 12 playoff series' and had one good one, and you want to argue that the outlier is the expectation? You realize that last season's "Mickey Mouse" playoffs lined up with all his other 11 series, so why are we taking the outlier as the standard? The other factor is that 2019 was 2 years ago, and Lou is a player in his 30's, which means there's always the expectation of reduced productivity due to age.

His TS% has consistently gone down since 17-18, so there's a possible decline going on. This is similar to Jamal Crawford all over again, the same types of arguments were made, and we kept getting the same results, sorry, I'm not going to be fooled into believing Lou is a good playoff performer.

If Lou performs great in the playoffs, guess what? I'll cheer and be extremely happy, but that doesn't mean I'll expect what should not be expected.

--------



There's no need to stick our head in the sand about it. There are players who can definitely help you win and pick up slack in the regular season but aren't reliable in the playoffs. It happens, Lou through his career is that player. We don't know what we will get consistently from him in the playoffs offensively and efficiency wise, and his defense is a concern. This is reality, it's not something that has to be debated. Now, whether the team can manage that reality is the question.

Thanks for the deep dive into why Lou sucks as if we don't hear it on EVERY ****** GAME THREAD every time he misses a shot. With the playoffs looming, it's time to look at reasons why he might succeed. He DID have an excellent playoffs two years ago and there IS probably nobody better out there in trade. Lou is helping to carry this team right now. He shouldn't have to.

Considering what we gave up for him and that he makes twice as much, I'd like to see a lot more scrutiny of Marcus. I don't care what his percentages are, 12/4/1 and a plus/minus barely above zero is pitiful. Trezz has more assists, ffs. [And everything else too.]

______________________________

LATE ADD: Report: LA Clippers Not Expected to Trade Sixth Man Lou Williams

Despite rumors that Lou Williams would be available this season, the LA Clippers are reportedly content with hanging onto their all-important sixth man.

LA Clippers guard Lou Williams has found himself wrapped up in trade rumors nearly all season long, and it's not hard to understand why. Not only is the 34-year-old playing in the final year of his contract, but he's remained one of the best bench players in the league.

Ultimately, this feels like the right move. The Clippers, even with their issues this season, have still been one of the league's best teams — especially on the offensive end of the floor. Williams has also returned to form after struggling out of the gate, averaging 16.3 points and 4.6 assists over his last 16 appearances.

That said, it isn't just Williams' on-court ability that's keeping him off the trade market. According to Amick, the Clippers have also been pleased with Williams' leadership — something he put on display in LA's big win over the Utah Jazz last month.


Read on Twitter

[og15]

If you want a guard who can defend, sign Sindarius. The NBA in 2021 is not about defense, it's about putting the ball in the hole. That's why Sindarius is unemployed again. He can't.

Lou had a FANTASTIC playoffs vs GSW 2 years ago! 21.7 ppg and 7.7 assists. Last year's Mickey Mouse Playoffs proved nothing. Lou just carried us through the last month along with PG. It's time for the rest of this team to stop getting a free ride. Kawhi, PG and Lou are dragging the rest on their backs.

Lou has a whole career of data, if that season was the norm, great, but it's not, so citing that one good playoffs consisting of 6 of his 71 playoff games doesn't really make sense as an argument that he's good in the playoffs, especially since he can't have the basically first option role he had in that series on this team.

Lou has played 12 playoff series' and had one good one, and you want to argue that the outlier is the expectation? You realize that last season's "Mickey Mouse" playoffs lined up with all his other 11 series, so why are we taking the outlier as the standard? The other factor is that 2019 was 2 years ago, and Lou is a player in his 30's, which means there's always the expectation of reduced productivity due to age.

His TS% has consistently gone down since 17-18, so there's a possible decline going on. This is similar to Jamal Crawford all over again, the same types of arguments were made, and we kept getting the same results, sorry, I'm not going to be fooled into believing Lou is a good playoff performer.

If Lou performs great in the playoffs, guess what? I'll cheer and be extremely happy, but that doesn't mean I'll expect what should not be expected.

--------



There's no need to stick our head in the sand about it. There are players who can definitely help you win and pick up slack in the regular season but aren't reliable in the playoffs. It happens, Lou through his career is that player. We don't know what we will get consistently from him in the playoffs offensively and efficiency wise, and his defense is a concern. This is reality, it's not something that has to be debated. Now, whether the team can manage that reality is the question.

Thanks for the deep dive into why Lou sucks as if we don't hear it on EVERY ****** GAME THREAD every time he misses a shot. With the playoffs looming, it's time to look at reasons why he might succeed. He DID have an excellent playoffs two years ago and there IS probably nobody better out there in trade. Lou is helping to carry this team right now. He shouldn't have to.

Considering what we gave up for him and that he makes twice as much, I'd like to see a lot more scrutiny of Marcus. I don't care what his percentages are, 12/4/1 and a plus/minus barely above zero is pitiful. Trezz has more assists, ffs. [And everything else too.]

______________________________

LATE ADD: Report: LA Clippers Not Expected to Trade Sixth Man Lou Williams

Despite rumors that Lou Williams would be available this season, the LA Clippers are reportedly content with hanging onto their all-important sixth man.

LA Clippers guard Lou Williams has found himself wrapped up in trade rumors nearly all season long, and it's not hard to understand why. Not only is the 34-year-old playing in the final year of his contract, but he's remained one of the best bench players in the league.

Ultimately, this feels like the right move. The Clippers, even with their issues this season, have still been one of the league's best teams — especially on the offensive end of the floor. Williams has also returned to form after struggling out of the gate, averaging 16.3 points and 4.6 assists over his last 16 appearances.

That said, it isn't just Williams' on-court ability that's keeping him off the trade market. According to Amick, the Clippers have also been pleased with Williams' leadership — something he put on display in LA's big win over the Utah Jazz last month.


Read on Twitter

I'd say that everything isn't all or nothing, I think that's where you're getting confused about my post. Lou doesn't have to suck or be the best. One doesn't have to hate Lou or be blind to what he can or can't do. Lou can simply be who he is, a solid regular season player who has issues with maintaining good production and efficiency in the playoffs and is not much of a defender.

Lou can simply be who he is, a player who the Clippers shouldn't trade because they can't get any better option for in a trade but who there will be concerns with him in the playoffs based on a long career playoff history.

I don't critique Clippers players because I want them to fail or want to be proven right. There are certainly people who do that, but I don't bang with that.

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing one way or another, there's nuance. You are taking the flawed position that any constructive evaluation of Lou and his short comings as it relates to this team and his role is "hate".

Yes, in a trade Williams or not thread, we are going to talk about him, positive and negative, that's expected.


Marcus Morris
You should start a thread about Morris, if you feel he should be discussed more. Lou is discussed more because the Clippers have a guard problem, and he's the only guard that could have trade value. The Clippers are pretty set at forward, which is why people don't care as much about Morris.

Lou's playoff history compared to Morris is also very different. It's also about people looking to the playoffs. Morris is a pretty efficient and consistent shooter in the playoffs career wise. In 4 playoffs, he shoots 44/44 and he's never shot under 39% 3PT. He is not a defensive problem, that's why there isn't as much concern about him.

[esqtvd]

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing one way or another, there's nuance. You are taking the flawed position that any constructive evaluation of Lou and his short comings as it relates to this team and his role is "hate".

Does anyone think ANYONE is unaware of Lou's negatives, endlessly rehashed on EVERY thread on this board? How do you figure it's "constructive" when his positives and contributions are completely glossed over? Pointing the brighter side is "constructive."

Code: Select all

He DID have an excellent playoffs two years ago and there IS probably nobody better out there in trade. Lou is helping to carry this team right now. He shouldn't have to.

...

The Clippers, even with their issues this season, have still been one of the league's best teams — especially on the offensive end of the floor. Williams has also returned to form after struggling out of the gate, averaging 16.3 points and 4.6 assists over his last 16 appearances.


___________________________

Marcus Morris
You should start a thread about Morris, if you feel he should be discussed more. Lou is discussed more because the Clippers have a guard problem, and he's the only guard that could have trade value. The Clippers are pretty set at forward, which is why people don't care as much about Morris.

Lou's playoff history compared to Morris is also very different. It's also about people looking to the playoffs. Morris is a pretty efficient and consistent shooter in the playoffs career wise. In 4 playoffs, he shoots 44/44 and he's never shot under 39% 3PT. He is not a defensive problem, that's why there isn't as much concern about him.

Well there should be. Percentages don't mean squat; it's about production. Same goes for Lou and for Jamal before him. Of course the latter are going to shoot when everybody else is scared to step up. THAT'S the dynamic here and why those two are respected by their peers even while [some] fans sit back and d-bag them.

As for Marcus, that he doesn't have his own d-bag thread PROVES my point, lol--Lou gets all the flak while Marcus floats lazily below the radar. If you don't worry about his defense, maybe you should--over the last 15 games, Marcus is MINUS-0.1 while Lou is second on the Clippers at plus+4.1.

And the Spurs just kicked Aldridge to the curb with better production in the same 24 mpg than Marcus's 12.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.3 bpg.

Read on Twitter

[madmaxmedia]

I do really like that clip of Lou talking up his teammates

[og15]

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing one way or another, there's nuance. You are taking the flawed position that any constructive evaluation of Lou and his short comings as it relates to this team and his role is "hate".

Does anyone think ANYONE is unaware of Lou's negatives, endlessly rehashed on EVERY thread on this board? How do you figure it's "constructive" when his positives and contributions are completely glossed over? Pointing the brighter side is "constructive."

Code: Select all

He DID have an excellent playoffs two years ago and there IS probably nobody better out there in trade. Lou is helping to carry this team right now. He shouldn't have to.

...

The Clippers, even with their issues this season, have still been one of the league's best teams — especially on the offensive end of the floor. Williams has also returned to form after struggling out of the gate, averaging 16.3 points and 4.6 assists over his last 16 appearances.


___________________________

Marcus Morris
You should start a thread about Morris, if you feel he should be discussed more. Lou is discussed more because the Clippers have a guard problem, and he's the only guard that could have trade value. The Clippers are pretty set at forward, which is why people don't care as much about Morris.

Lou's playoff history compared to Morris is also very different. It's also about people looking to the playoffs. Morris is a pretty efficient and consistent shooter in the playoffs career wise. In 4 playoffs, he shoots 44/44 and he's never shot under 39% 3PT. He is not a defensive problem, that's why there isn't as much concern about him.

Well there should be. Percentages don't mean squat; it's about production. Same goes for Lou and for Jamal before him. Of course the latter are going to shoot when everybody else is scared to step up. THAT'S the dynamic here and why those two are respected by their peers even while [some] fans sit back and d-bag them.

As for Marcus, that he doesn't have his own d-bag thread PROVES my point, lol--Lou gets all the flak while Marcus floats lazily below the radar. If you don't worry about his defense, maybe you should--over the last 15 games, Marcus is MINUS-0.1 while Lou is second on the Clippers at plus+4.1.

And the Spurs just kicked Aldridge to the curb with better production in the same 24 mpg than Marcus's 12.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.3 bpg.

Read on Twitter

To your first part, hence why I said trading him doesn’t make sense and he’s still a better option than the other bench guards and should not be traded simply for the sake of trading him

————-

What is production? Percentages are part of production, defense is part of production. Production isn’t simply about counting stats (pts/rebs/ast). You can look up Morris’ playoff production, 13/6 on 44/44 and generally solid defense, that’s solid production.

I don’t understand the relevance of citing LMA. First he’s 35 years old, second he makes $24 million, third they are very different players and play different positions. Is LMA’s production better? How? He takes 2 more FGA to score 1.4 more PPG. He’s a PF/C and averages 0.7 more RPG than a SF/PF. His TS% is 54.5% compared to 58.8% for Morris. Why is his “production” better? Because his PPG and RPG is slightly higher? What about defense? How good is 35 year old LMA on defense. Can he switch? Can he guard the perimeter? Can he protect the rim well at this stage? Per 36 Morris averages 18/6 and LMA averages 19/6.

If you’re simplifying “production” to counting stats without any context and not taking into account position, defense, efficiency, etc, you’re doing a big disservice to basketball analysis.

Also the Spurs aren’t kicking LMA to the curb, they mutually agreed to part ways because he is playing 24 mpg on a non-contender and he wants more minutes which they aren’t willing to give with their roster, and so if he’s going to have a reduced role, he wants a chance to contend. This is nothing new, it happens all the time:

Popovich insisted that the decision to part ways was best for both sides, and spoke highly of Aldridge.

“There was no problem there. We just think this is a win-win for both LaMarcus and for the club,” Popovich said. “So, when an opportunity arises, that’ll be up to management, his agent, you know, that sort of thing. We’ll all move forward.”

[Wammy Giveaway]

We know that Lou Williams will automatically retire if he's traded, but what does that really mean? Does his contract become a no-trade clause, is his contract now valueless when he's traded?*

* Before I go on, let me preface by saying this is NOT A REAL TRADE, just an example for the purposes of money. Let's say they wanna trade for superstar LaMarcus Aldridge, and need $24 million to make it work. The track package is Williams ($8 mil), Patterson ($3 mil), Zubac ($7 mil), Kennard ($5 mil) and Kabengele ($2 mil), totalling $25.4 million. If Williams retires, then his $8 million is excused from the list, reducing the total value to $17.4 million - now they have to add a Beverley or Morris, costing the Clippers more players than they initially wanted to give up. Would that be what happens if Williams retired in the middle of a trade?

[esqtvd]

Well there should be [conern]. Percentages don't mean squat; it's about production. Same goes for Lou and for Jamal before him. Of course the latter are going to shoot when everybody else is scared to step up. THAT'S the dynamic here and why those two are respected by their peers even while [some] fans sit back and d-bag them.

As for Marcus, that he doesn't have his own d-bag thread PROVES my point, lol--Lou gets all the flak while Marcus floats lazily below the radar. If you don't worry about his defense, maybe you should--over the last 15 games, Marcus is MINUS-0.1 while Lou is second on the Clippers at plus+4.1.

And the Spurs just kicked Aldridge to the curb with better production in the same 24 mpg than Marcus's 12.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.3 bpg.

Read on Twitter

To your first part, hence why I said trading him doesn’t make sense and he’s still a better option than the other bench guards and should not be traded simply for the sake of trading him

————-

What is production? Percentages are part of production, defense is part of production. Production isn’t simply about counting stats (pts/rebs/ast). You can look up Morris’ playoff production, 13/6 on 44/44 and generally solid defense, that’s solid production.

I don’t understand the relevance of citing LMA. First he’s 35 years old, second he makes $24 million, third they are very different players and play different positions. Is LMA’s production better? How? He takes 2 more FGA to score 1.4 more PPG. He’s a PF/C and averages 0.7 more RPG than a SF/PF. His TS% is 54.5% compared to 58.8% for Morris. Why is his “production” better? Because his PPG and RPG is slightly higher? What about defense? How good is 35 year old LMA on defense. Can he switch? Can he guard the perimeter? Can he protect the rim well at this stage? Per 36 Morris averages 18/6 and LMA averages 19/6.

If you’re simplifying “production” to counting stats without any context and not taking into account position, defense, efficiency, etc, you’re doing a big disservice to basketball analysis.

Also the Spurs aren’t kicking LMA to the curb, they mutually agreed to part ways because he is playing 24 mpg on a non-contender and he wants more minutes which they aren’t willing to give with their roster, and so if he’s going to have a reduced role, he wants a chance to contend. This is nothing new, it happens all the time:

Popovich insisted that the decision to part ways was best for both sides, and spoke highly of Aldridge.

“There was no problem there. We just think this is a win-win for both LaMarcus and for the club,” Popovich said. “So, when an opportunity arises, that’ll be up to management, his agent, you know, that sort of thing. We’ll all move forward.”

If Lou's production was as poor as Aldridge's, the Clippers would be showing him the door as we speak. Instead, the load--and the inevitable blame for our inevitable failure--is already being put on Lou's back as one of our best players, rather than our 6th or 7th or even 8th best player at age 34 with his contract running out, and being pushed out the door himself.

And it's certainly not out of line to point out that our 3rd highest-paid player is producing no more than a guy who's being paid by the Spurs to NOT play for them. Marcus's numbers are quite comparable. They shouldn't even be close.


Hey, any moron off the street can tell us why the Clippers aren't gonna win jackspit. But what's the point of even watching the rest of the season? What's the point of having a fanboard dedicated to why everyone on the Clippers sucks. So people can say "I told you so?" Gee, what fun.

Have it your way. Except for Kawhi and Serge, our entire rotation sucks. Enjoy.


https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/amp/the_ringers_bill_simmons_doesnt_trust_the_clippers_i_dont_like_the_make_up_of_their_team/s1_16751_34319684?

“I don’t trust the Clippers. I just don’t like their team. I don’t like the make-up of their team. I don’t like the players together. I look at this Clippers team. Who is making somebody else better on that team? It’s a bunch of cars parked in the same parking lot. There just kinda in their own spaces. I really thought they needed to make a trade. I don’t think they can go another playoffs with Lou Williams. He’s a terrible playoff player.

Beverly is not nearly enough offense. Morris is a ball stopper. I don’t trust Zubac. I don’t trust Nic Batum at all. Just wait till down 3-2, Game 6, a minute left down 2, he’s wide open in the corner. That thing is hitting the side of the backboard. This team is going to go war for four straight rounds? I don’t see it. Not to mention George is all over the place. There was a story the other day PG he’d skipped a game due to dizziness because he had too much coffee. This is the sh*t that happens to my son.”

[madmaxmedia]

We know that Lou Williams will automatically retire if he's traded, but what does that really mean? Does his contract become a no-trade clause, is his contract now valueless when he's traded?*

* Before I go on, let me preface by saying this is NOT A REAL TRADE, just an example for the purposes of money. Let's say they wanna trade for superstar LaMarcus Aldridge, and need $24 million to make it work. The track package is Williams ($8 mil), Patterson ($3 mil), Zubac ($7 mil), Kennard ($5 mil) and Kabengele ($2 mil), totalling $25.4 million. If Williams retires, then his $8 million is excused from the list, reducing the total value to $17.4 million - now they have to add a Beverley or Morris, costing the Clippers more players than they initially wanted to give up. Would that be what happens if Williams retired in the middle of a trade?

I don't think he will necessary retire. I mean if he still wants to play, he's a FA at the end of the year anyways and can then sign anywhere he wants.

But if he could threaten to retire to try to torpedo a trade. Or if the new team doesn't care and wants to go through with it, then he can retire after the trade is completed. If that's the case, I don't think the Clippers would need to add extra salary (unless there is some rule specifically around that type of situation.)

[madmaxmedia]

In general I like Bill Simmons and he's done some good things. But he is not a real analyst, he's more a media personality so some of his quotes make me groan.
Just a side note LOL.

[esqtvd]

In general I like Bill Simmons and he's done some good things. But he is not a real analyst, he's more a media personality so some of his quotes make me groan.
Just a side note LOL.

Hence

Code: Select all

Hey, any moron off the street can tell us why the Clippers aren't gonna win jackspit.

At least Simmons gets paid for it.

[og15]

Well there should be [conern]. Percentages don't mean squat; it's about production. Same goes for Lou and for Jamal before him. Of course the latter are going to shoot when everybody else is scared to step up. THAT'S the dynamic here and why those two are respected by their peers even while [some] fans sit back and d-bag them.

As for Marcus, that he doesn't have his own d-bag thread PROVES my point, lol--Lou gets all the flak while Marcus floats lazily below the radar. If you don't worry about his defense, maybe you should--over the last 15 games, Marcus is MINUS-0.1 while Lou is second on the Clippers at plus+4.1.

And the Spurs just kicked Aldridge to the curb with better production in the same 24 mpg than Marcus's 12.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.3 bpg.

Read on Twitter

To your first part, hence why I said trading him doesn’t make sense and he’s still a better option than the other bench guards and should not be traded simply for the sake of trading him

————-

What is production? Percentages are part of production, defense is part of production. Production isn’t simply about counting stats (pts/rebs/ast). You can look up Morris’ playoff production, 13/6 on 44/44 and generally solid defense, that’s solid production.

I don’t understand the relevance of citing LMA. First he’s 35 years old, second he makes $24 million, third they are very different players and play different positions. Is LMA’s production better? How? He takes 2 more FGA to score 1.4 more PPG. He’s a PF/C and averages 0.7 more RPG than a SF/PF. His TS% is 54.5% compared to 58.8% for Morris. Why is his “production” better? Because his PPG and RPG is slightly higher? What about defense? How good is 35 year old LMA on defense. Can he switch? Can he guard the perimeter? Can he protect the rim well at this stage? Per 36 Morris averages 18/6 and LMA averages 19/6.

If you’re simplifying “production” to counting stats without any context and not taking into account position, defense, efficiency, etc, you’re doing a big disservice to basketball analysis.

Also the Spurs aren’t kicking LMA to the curb, they mutually agreed to part ways because he is playing 24 mpg on a non-contender and he wants more minutes which they aren’t willing to give with their roster, and so if he’s going to have a reduced role, he wants a chance to contend. This is nothing new, it happens all the time:

Popovich insisted that the decision to part ways was best for both sides, and spoke highly of Aldridge.

“There was no problem there. We just think this is a win-win for both LaMarcus and for the club,” Popovich said. “So, when an opportunity arises, that’ll be up to management, his agent, you know, that sort of thing. We’ll all move forward.”

If Lou's production was as poor as Aldridge's, the Clippers would be showing him the door as we speak. Instead, the load--and the inevitable blame for our inevitable failure--is already being put on Lou's back as one of our best players, rather than our 6th or 7th or even 8th best player at age 34 with his contract running out, and being pushed out the door himself.

And it's certainly not out of line to point out that our 3rd highest-paid player is producing no more than a guy who's being paid by the Spurs to NOT play for them. Marcus's numbers are quite comparable. They shouldn't even be close.


Hey, any moron off the street can tell us why the Clippers aren't gonna win jackspit. But what's the point of even watching the rest of the season? What's the point of having a fanboard dedicated to why everyone on the Clippers sucks. So people can say "I told you so?" Gee, what fun.

Have it your way. Except for Kawhi and Serge, our entire rotation sucks. Enjoy.


https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/amp/the_ringers_bill_simmons_doesnt_trust_the_clippers_i_dont_like_the_make_up_of_their_team/s1_16751_34319684?

“I don’t trust the Clippers. I just don’t like their team. I don’t like the make-up of their team. I don’t like the players together. I look at this Clippers team. Who is making somebody else better on that team? It’s a bunch of cars parked in the same parking lot. There just kinda in their own spaces. I really thought they needed to make a trade. I don’t think they can go another playoffs with Lou Williams. He’s a terrible playoff player.

Beverly is not nearly enough offense. Morris is a ball stopper. I don’t trust Zubac. I don’t trust Nic Batum at all. Just wait till down 3-2, Game 6, a minute left down 2, he’s wide open in the corner. That thing is hitting the side of the backboard. This team is going to go war for four straight rounds? I don’t see it. Not to mention George is all over the place. There was a story the other day PG he’d skipped a game due to dizziness because he had too much coffee. This is the sh*t that happens to my son.”

No, the Clippers would not be showing Lou out the door if his production was similar to Aldridge, their production is basically the same relative to positions. I'm not really understanding that comparison, doesn't seem logical. If Lou was making $24 million though, that would be a different story.

The Spurs aren't moving Aldridge because of lack of production, they are trading him because he's an expiring who they know won't re-sign, and him and the team are in different places.

Aldridge:
13.7 ppg / 4.5 rpg / 1.7 apg / 0.9 bpg / 54.5% TS
20+ pts, 7/21 games
Double digits: 16/21 games
High games: 28, 26, 22, 21, 20 (X3)

Williams:
12.5 ppg / 2.3 rpg / 3.7 apg / 0.9 spg / 52.6% TS
20+ pts, 5/35 games
Double digits: 20/35 games
High games: 30, 27, 23, 21, 20

What's the massive production difference that would get Aldridge traded vs Lou on the Clippers if they had the same contract and relatively similar role? I really don't get it.

I didn't say it was out of line to criticize Morris, where did you read that? I said make a thread about Morris if you believe his lack of production or impact should be discussed. You are making a pretty unreasonable and irrational point. You're trying to spin the Spurs and Aldridge agreeing to a trade into meaning Aldridge is bad or unproductive. Is that a consistent conclusion we make about every player teams sit because of a trade? Doesn't make sense, just seems like you're being disingenuous here.

Aldridge is putting up 19/6/2 per 36, why should Morris' production not be close to comparable to that? Morris is more efficient and better on defense. This just doesn't make sense, you're making a correlation and taking it to an illiogical conclusion.


"Everyone sucks, why watch". Now you're spiralling, nothing in this thread even implies that. "Have it your way", whose way? Let's calm down and not spiral into made up stuff, lol

[esqtvd]

To your first part, hence why I said trading him doesn’t make sense and he’s still a better option than the other bench guards and should not be traded simply for the sake of trading him

————-

What is production? Percentages are part of production, defense is part of production. Production isn’t simply about counting stats (pts/rebs/ast). You can look up Morris’ playoff production, 13/6 on 44/44 and generally solid defense, that’s solid production.

I don’t understand the relevance of citing LMA. First he’s 35 years old, second he makes $24 million, third they are very different players and play different positions. Is LMA’s production better? How? He takes 2 more FGA to score 1.4 more PPG. He’s a PF/C and averages 0.7 more RPG than a SF/PF. His TS% is 54.5% compared to 58.8% for Morris. Why is his “production” better? Because his PPG and RPG is slightly higher? What about defense? How good is 35 year old LMA on defense. Can he switch? Can he guard the perimeter? Can he protect the rim well at this stage? Per 36 Morris averages 18/6 and LMA averages 19/6.

If you’re simplifying “production” to counting stats without any context and not taking into account position, defense, efficiency, etc, you’re doing a big disservice to basketball analysis.

Also the Spurs aren’t kicking LMA to the curb, they mutually agreed to part ways because he is playing 24 mpg on a non-contender and he wants more minutes which they aren’t willing to give with their roster, and so if he’s going to have a reduced role, he wants a chance to contend. This is nothing new, it happens all the time:

If Lou's production was as poor as Aldridge's, the Clippers would be showing him the door as we speak. Instead, the load--and the inevitable blame for our inevitable failure--is already being put on Lou's back as one of our best players, rather than our 6th or 7th or even 8th best player at age 34 with his contract running out, and being pushed out the door himself.

And it's certainly not out of line to point out that our 3rd highest-paid player is producing no more than a guy who's being paid by the Spurs to NOT play for them. Marcus's numbers are quite comparable. They shouldn't even be close.


Hey, any moron off the street can tell us why the Clippers aren't gonna win jackspit. But what's the point of even watching the rest of the season? What's the point of having a fanboard dedicated to why everyone on the Clippers sucks. So people can say "I told you so?" Gee, what fun.

Have it your way. Except for Kawhi and Serge, our entire rotation sucks. Enjoy.


https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/amp/the_ringers_bill_simmons_doesnt_trust_the_clippers_i_dont_like_the_make_up_of_their_team/s1_16751_34319684?

“I don’t trust the Clippers. I just don’t like their team. I don’t like the make-up of their team. I don’t like the players together. I look at this Clippers team. Who is making somebody else better on that team? It’s a bunch of cars parked in the same parking lot. There just kinda in their own spaces. I really thought they needed to make a trade. I don’t think they can go another playoffs with Lou Williams. He’s a terrible playoff player.

Beverly is not nearly enough offense. Morris is a ball stopper. I don’t trust Zubac. I don’t trust Nic Batum at all. Just wait till down 3-2, Game 6, a minute left down 2, he’s wide open in the corner. That thing is hitting the side of the backboard. This team is going to go war for four straight rounds? I don’t see it. Not to mention George is all over the place. There was a story the other day PG he’d skipped a game due to dizziness because he had too much coffee. This is the sh*t that happens to my son.”

No, the Clippers would not be showing Lou out the door if his production was similar to Aldridge, their production is basically the same relative to positions. I'm not really understanding that comparison, doesn't seem logical. If Lou was making $24 million though, that would be a different story.

The Spurs aren't moving Aldridge because of lack of production, they are trading him because he's an expiring who they know won't re-sign, and him and the team are in different places.

Aldridge:
13.7 ppg / 4.5 rpg / 1.7 apg / 0.9 bpg / 54.5% TS
20+ pts, 7/21 games
Double digits: 16/21 games
High games: 28, 26, 22, 21, 20 (X3)

Williams:
12.5 ppg / 2.3 rpg / 3.7 apg / 0.9 spg / 52.6% TS
20+ pts, 5/35 games
Double digits: 20/35 games
High games: 30, 27, 23, 21, 20

What's the massive production difference that would get Aldridge traded vs Lou on the Clippers if they had the same contract and relatively similar role? I really don't get it.

I didn't say it was out of line to criticize Morris, where did you read that? I said make a thread about Morris if you believe his lack of production or impact should be discussed. You are making a pretty unreasonable and irrational point. You're trying to spin the Spurs and Aldridge agreeing to a trade into meaning Aldridge is bad or unproductive. Is that a consistent conclusion we make about every player teams sit because of a trade? Doesn't make sense, just seems like you're being disingenuous here.

Aldridge is putting up 19/6/2 per 36, why should Morris' production not be close to comparable to that? Morris is more efficient and better on defense. This just doesn't make sense, you're making a correlation and taking it to an illiogical conclusion.


"Everyone sucks, why watch". Now you're spiralling, nothing in this thread even implies that. "Have it your way", whose way? Let's calm down and not spiral into made up stuff, lol

The Spurs would not be kicking Aldridge to the curb if he were producing. And Marcus is producing little or no better. 12/4/1 in 24 minutes with a plus/minus barely above zero is crap. And Lou's recent performance over the past 6 weeks makes his overall stats irrelevant. If he were still playing as badly as he did at first, he WOULD be looking at a buyout, lol.

The board follows your lead, Mr Moderator. If you want to play to the negativity and scapegoating--and it's already set up for Lou and Ty to take the fall--than let's scapegoat the people who REALLY have it coming and you can let the board turn into one big "I told you so."

“I don’t trust the Clippers. I just don’t like their team. I don’t like the make-up of their team. I don’t like the players together. I look at this Clippers team. Who is making somebody else better on that team? It’s a bunch of cars parked in the same parking lot. There just kinda in their own spaces. I really thought they needed to make a trade. I don’t think they can go another playoffs with Lou Williams. He’s a terrible playoff player.

Beverly is not nearly enough offense. Morris is a ball stopper. I don’t trust Zubac. I don’t trust Nic Batum at all. Just wait till down 3-2, Game 6, a minute left down 2, he’s wide open in the corner. That thing is hitting the side of the backboard. This team is going to go war for four straight rounds? I don’t see it. Not to mention George is all over the place. There was a story the other day PG he’d skipped a game due to dizziness because he had too much coffee. This is the sh*t that happens to my son.”

There, I told you so. The whole team is "unplayable."

[og15]

If Lou's production was as poor as Aldridge's, the Clippers would be showing him the door as we speak. Instead, the load--and the inevitable blame for our inevitable failure--is already being put on Lou's back as one of our best players, rather than our 6th or 7th or even 8th best player at age 34 with his contract running out, and being pushed out the door himself.

And it's certainly not out of line to point out that our 3rd highest-paid player is producing no more than a guy who's being paid by the Spurs to NOT play for them. Marcus's numbers are quite comparable. They shouldn't even be close.


Hey, any moron off the street can tell us why the Clippers aren't gonna win jackspit. But what's the point of even watching the rest of the season? What's the point of having a fanboard dedicated to why everyone on the Clippers sucks. So people can say "I told you so?" Gee, what fun.

Have it your way. Except for Kawhi and Serge, our entire rotation sucks. Enjoy.


https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/amp/the_ringers_bill_simmons_doesnt_trust_the_clippers_i_dont_like_the_make_up_of_their_team/s1_16751_34319684?

No, the Clippers would not be showing Lou out the door if his production was similar to Aldridge, their production is basically the same relative to positions. I'm not really understanding that comparison, doesn't seem logical. If Lou was making $24 million though, that would be a different story.

The Spurs aren't moving Aldridge because of lack of production, they are trading him because he's an expiring who they know won't re-sign, and him and the team are in different places.

Aldridge:
13.7 ppg / 4.5 rpg / 1.7 apg / 0.9 bpg / 54.5% TS
20+ pts, 7/21 games
Double digits: 16/21 games
High games: 28, 26, 22, 21, 20 (X3)

Williams:
12.5 ppg / 2.3 rpg / 3.7 apg / 0.9 spg / 52.6% TS
20+ pts, 5/35 games
Double digits: 20/35 games
High games: 30, 27, 23, 21, 20

What's the massive production difference that would get Aldridge traded vs Lou on the Clippers if they had the same contract and relatively similar role? I really don't get it.

I didn't say it was out of line to criticize Morris, where did you read that? I said make a thread about Morris if you believe his lack of production or impact should be discussed. You are making a pretty unreasonable and irrational point. You're trying to spin the Spurs and Aldridge agreeing to a trade into meaning Aldridge is bad or unproductive. Is that a consistent conclusion we make about every player teams sit because of a trade? Doesn't make sense, just seems like you're being disingenuous here.

Aldridge is putting up 19/6/2 per 36, why should Morris' production not be close to comparable to that? Morris is more efficient and better on defense. This just doesn't make sense, you're making a correlation and taking it to an illiogical conclusion.


"Everyone sucks, why watch". Now you're spiralling, nothing in this thread even implies that. "Have it your way", whose way? Let's calm down and not spiral into made up stuff, lol

The Spurs would not be kicking Aldridge to the curb if he were producing. And Marcus is producing little or no better.

The board follows your lead, Mr Moderator. If you want to play to the negativity and scapegoating--and it's already set up for Lou and Ty to take the fall--than let's scapegoat the people who REALLY have it coming and you can let the board turn into one big "I told you so."

“I don’t trust the Clippers. I just don’t like their team. I don’t like the make-up of their team. I don’t like the players together. I look at this Clippers team. Who is making somebody else better on that team? It’s a bunch of cars parked in the same parking lot. There just kinda in their own spaces. I really thought they needed to make a trade. I don’t think they can go another playoffs with Lou Williams. He’s a terrible playoff player.

Beverly is not nearly enough offense. Morris is a ball stopper. I don’t trust Zubac. I don’t trust Nic Batum at all. Just wait till down 3-2, Game 6, a minute left down 2, he’s wide open in the corner. That thing is hitting the side of the backboard. This team is going to go war for four straight rounds? I don’t see it. Not to mention George is all over the place. There was a story the other day PG he’d skipped a game due to dizziness because he had too much coffee. This is the sh*t that happens to my son.”

There, I told you so. The whole team is "unplayable."

Just because you keep repeating something, it doesn’t become true. If you keep saying the Spurs are “kicking Aldridge to the curb” as if it is a unilateral decision and as if there aren’t particulars to why he is being moved, it doesn’t mean it is the reality

If you follow your logic consistently, only unproductive players get traded, but you can’t and you don’t consistently follow the logic that your are using here. Consistency is important, if you aren’t going to be consistent, one can just make up new standards to suit each argument they are making.

The other problem with your conclusion about Aldridge’s productivity is that it then suggest the Clippers SHOULD trade Williams if that is the standard you are using for production. From the standard of production you are using, Williams is also unproductive, but of course I disagree with your standard, but if you want to be consistent, that is what you are saying. If you don’t care about consistency, well then you can just say random things that don’t follow

I have little respect for Bill Simmons opinion, it means nothing to me. So I don’t care about his nonsense, the guy is a Clipper hater and constantly spews nonsense about the Clippers.