"We Tried So Hard, and (Haven't) Got so Far, But in the End, It Doesn't Even Matter" Trade Thread

[Feed Your Head]

Duke4life831 AMA.

Line up your questions everyone.

[Duke4life831]

I havent been over here as much as I have in the past (still catching about 80% of Celtics games though). Curious what the feeling is with what direction this team needs to go roster construction wise.

Is everyone sold on Tatum/Brown as the top two guys? Like from here on out every roster move should be based around, "how does this player fit with Tatum/Brown"? Are people looking to keep those two and the rest of the roster is open to be moved?

Or more just of a, we need some small moves like an offensive microwave scorer specialist. Or a defensive big specialist?

Watching this team it feels like yall are kind of just stuck in the middle of everything. Its like they want Tatum/Brown to be the cornerstones of the roster, but havent really begun to build the roster around those two, it feels like Ainge is just trying to collect any kind of talent and hoping Stevens can make it work.

Or are people questioning the Tatum/Brown fit and think it would be best to flip one of them with the hope of a new star blood might get things clicking again in the right direction?

[gocelts]

How many "sure-fire all-stars" do you think there are in the league? Depending on exactly what you mean by the term, I presume the answer is somewhere in the 15-35 range, given that the actual number of all-stars in a given year is 24 plus a few injury replacements.

Then move on to plan B and C. This “waiting for the perfect deal” has ultimately cost us WAY more than a slight overpay in a trade. We’ve lost too many players for nothing and literally wasted picks we didn’t need.

Over and over again we hear this refrain: DA needs to make a big trade. And when we ask "Who?" the response is generally this. Name a few trades for actual "sure fire All-stars" please. If you can't even name one how exactly is Danny supposed to make an actual deal for one? The reality is that any trade you would make for a Beal will cost you a Jaylen. Teams aren't taking Kemba and giving us their All-star in return.

For sake of all the readers, I’m not going to throw up another trade scenario, but if “sure fire all star” costs “Jaylen” and we are a better team, then we should do it. If “sure fire all star” costs Smart, players and picks (whatever) and we are better, we should do it.

Again, if it’s not there (and I’m fine with punting for the off-season as again, an overpay for Barnes won’t win us a championship) then we should do a mini move to consolidate and balance the roster. Lastly, If we can’t improve, and there really is nothing out there... then we really should turn the other way and look to unload Kemba now while it’s a sellers market.

[Feed Your Head]

Seriously though, while you are here. What are your thoughts on Towns? This board is pretty split on the idea of Jaylen+ for Towns, just wondering what an unbiased outsider thinks about him.

I’d do it, but I completely understand why people have reservations about Towns.

Hard to tell. Part of me wouldnt want my team going all out to get him. I think he is horrible defensively. This was the 2nd and 3rd most used lineups for the Wolves last year.

Napier, Culver, Covington, Wiggins, KAT (105 minutes)
Napier, Culver, Covington, Wiggins, Dieng (101 minutes)

The Dieng lineup had a Defensive Rating of 108. The KAT lineup had a Defensive Rating of 123.

The exact same lineups, almost identical amount of minutes, the only change is swapping KAT with Dieng. And the difference between those lineups defensively was a lineup that was playing top 10 level defense, vs a historically bad level defense.

I dont think that example is needed for most to know how bad KAT has been defensively, but I just think its a good representation of just how bad he can be on that end. But the question is, how much of that is KAT being a horrible defender and how much of it is the Wolves just being the Wolves and everyone looking bad there.

But with that said, Id probably do it. I know Brown had a hot start to the season, but Im not 100% sold I want him as my #2 ball handler/option for my offense. Id probably take the chance to get KAT, and hope in a new environment he plays better consistent defense. And just try and build around Tatum/KAT.

If the Celtics were trading brown and the options were KAT or beal who would you take?

I’m going to hop in and give my answer. Towns has more upside I think, but the Tatum connection with Beal is a big factor, so I’d lean towards Beal.

But, having a Tatum/Towns core can be very enticing to Beal, and maybe that’ll lure him here after next season? The Wolves want Collins apparently, should swing Jaylen/Collins to the Wolves, Smart/pick to the Hawks, then Towns/Rondo here. Then dump Kembas deal, there’s your Beal money.

I love trade threads lol.

[Duke4life831]

Seriously though, while you are here. What are your thoughts on Towns? This board is pretty split on the idea of Jaylen+ for Towns, just wondering what an unbiased outsider thinks about him.

I’d do it, but I completely understand why people have reservations about Towns.

Hard to tell. Part of me wouldnt want my team going all out to get him. I think he is horrible defensively. This was the 2nd and 3rd most used lineups for the Wolves last year.

Napier, Culver, Covington, Wiggins, KAT (105 minutes)
Napier, Culver, Covington, Wiggins, Dieng (101 minutes)

The Dieng lineup had a Defensive Rating of 108. The KAT lineup had a Defensive Rating of 123.

The exact same lineups, almost identical amount of minutes, the only change is swapping KAT with Dieng. And the difference between those lineups defensively was a lineup that was playing top 10 level defense, vs a historically bad level defense.

I dont think that example is needed for most to know how bad KAT has been defensively, but I just think its a good representation of just how bad he can be on that end. But the question is, how much of that is KAT being a horrible defender and how much of it is the Wolves just being the Wolves and everyone looking bad there.

But with that said, Id probably do it. I know Brown had a hot start to the season, but Im not 100% sold I want him as my #2 ball handler/option for my offense. Id probably take the chance to get KAT, and hope in a new environment he plays better consistent defense. And just try and build around Tatum/KAT.

If the Celtics were trading brown and the options were KAT or beal who would you take?

Either way I think you guys would need to move Kemba. You cant have a defensive perimeter of Kemba and Beal, you'd get picked apart defensively like we see what happens with POR every playoff. And you cant have a Kemba/Town defensive duo either, teams would just scheme their offense to get those two involved in the action.

But if you were able to move Kemba, I would say Beal. Say you move Smart to the starting lineup, you could hide Beal defensively, much easier than you could hide KAT.

Either way, and this is not meant to be any kind of shot towards Brown. Youd get a far more dynamic offense with either one of those guys.

[MagicBagley18]

I havent been over here as much as I have in the past (still catching about 80% of Celtics games though). Curious what the feeling is with what direction this team needs to go roster construction wise.

Is everyone sold on Tatum/Brown as the top two guys? Like from here on out every roster move should be based around, "how does this player fit with Tatum/Brown"? Are people looking to keep those two and the rest of the roster is open to be moved?

Or more just of a, we need some small moves like an offensive microwave scorer specialist. Or a defensive big specialist?

Watching this team it feels like yall are kind of just stuck in the middle of everything. Its like they want Tatum/Brown to be the cornerstones of the roster, but havent really begun to build the roster around those two, it feels like Ainge is just trying to collect any kind of talent and hoping Stevens can make it work.

Or are people questioning the Tatum/Brown fit and think it would be best to flip one of them with the hope of a new star blood might get things clicking again in the right direction?

I’d say it’s a pretty mixed bag. Most us know that we need changes to really get the team to the next level but the problem is our asset collection is lacking and that’s really hard to do. I think many here are happy with the Jaylen and jt combo. It’s a pretty divisive topic talking about how to move forward.

I’m off the belief with some others that I’m not sure brown is a number 2 on a championship- I’d say we are in the minority though and browns hot start really had us looking foolish.

[Feed Your Head]

I havent been over here as much as I have in the past (still catching about 80% of Celtics games though). Curious what the feeling is with what direction this team needs to go roster construction wise.

Is everyone sold on Tatum/Brown as the top two guys? Like from here on out every roster move should be based around, "how does this player fit with Tatum/Brown"? Are people looking to keep those two and the rest of the roster is open to be moved?

Or more just of a, we need some small moves like an offensive microwave scorer specialist. Or a defensive big specialist?

Watching this team it feels like yall are kind of just stuck in the middle of everything. Its like they want Tatum/Brown to be the cornerstones of the roster, but havent really begun to build the roster around those two, it feels like Ainge is just trying to collect any kind of talent and hoping Stevens can make it work.

Or are people questioning the Tatum/Brown fit and think it would be best to flip one of them with the hope of a new star blood might get things clicking again in the right direction?

Spoiler:

I’m more in the minority a bit, but I’m worried about Jaylen and how good he can be going forward. Since that burner to start the year he’s been closer to last years Jaylen than a superstar. People get it twisted and think I dislike him because of this, but I’m strictly looking at it on if he can be a superstar or not. He’s an incredible person, and a very good player, but I just don’t know if he will ever reach that level.

I have real questions if Tatum can be a number 1 scorer on a title team as well, I lean towards probably not. But I feel his all around play is enough to be the best guy on a top team, which is funny irony considering what people thought of him coming out of college. But even if he can’t be a true championship #1 scoring option, his worst case is a 1B or a 2 on a championship team, whereas Jaylen may be closer to a 3 than a 2.

I’m not really loving the direction the team is going, a combo of inactivity by Danny, and crap luck with the Kings and Grizzlies pick. I don’t see a quick fix either, even moves like Barnes/etc still leaves this team short of true contender. That’s why I occasionally float Jaylen trade ideas, I feel like if you could turn him into a guy like Towns or Beal, it changes the teams ceiling. Especially Beal because he’d be the unquestioned number 1 scorer, and that would make Tatum infinitely more dangerous. He gets ALL of the defensive attention from other teams, when he’s out there, other teams treat the rest of the guys as afterthoughts for the most part.

Obviously even with Beal or Towns, the rest of the roster needs to be upgraded as well, but the league is about top end talent, and I think we need an upgrade.

[MagicBagley18]

I havent been over here as much as I have in the past (still catching about 80% of Celtics games though). Curious what the feeling is with what direction this team needs to go roster construction wise.

Is everyone sold on Tatum/Brown as the top two guys? Like from here on out every roster move should be based around, "how does this player fit with Tatum/Brown"? Are people looking to keep those two and the rest of the roster is open to be moved?

Or more just of a, we need some small moves like an offensive microwave scorer specialist. Or a defensive big specialist?

Watching this team it feels like yall are kind of just stuck in the middle of everything. Its like they want Tatum/Brown to be the cornerstones of the roster, but havent really begun to build the roster around those two, it feels like Ainge is just trying to collect any kind of talent and hoping Stevens can make it work.

Or are people questioning the Tatum/Brown fit and think it would be best to flip one of them with the hope of a new star blood might get things clicking again in the right direction?

Spoiler:

I’m more in the minority a bit, but I’m worried about Jaylen and how good he can be going forward. Since that burner to start the year he’s been closer to last years Jaylen than a superstar.

I have real questions if Tatum can be a number 1 scorer on a title team as well, I lean towards probably not. But I feel his all around play is enough to be the best guy on a top team, which is funny irony considering what people thought of him coming out of college. But even if not, his worst case is a 1B or a 2 on a championship team, whereas Jaylen may be closer to a 3 than a 2.

I’m not really loving the direction the team is going, a combo of inactivity by Danny, and crap luck with the Kings and Grizzlies pick. I don’t see a quick fix either, even moves like Barnes/etc still leaves this team short of true contender. That’s why I occasionally float Jaylen trade ideas, I feel like if you could turn him into a guy like Towns or Beal, it changes the teams ceiling. Especially Beal because he’d be the unquestioned number 1 scorer, and that would make Tatum infinitely more dangerous. He gets ALL of the defensive attention from other teams, when he’s out there, other teams treat the rest of the guys as afterthoughts for the most part.

Obviously even with Beal or Towns, the rest of the roster needs to be upgraded as well, but the league is about top end talent, and I think we need an upgrade.

It’s truly funny that Tatum would be be our best overall player but option 1b on offense if we added a beal type. Huge credit to his game

[Duke4life831]

I havent been over here as much as I have in the past (still catching about 80% of Celtics games though). Curious what the feeling is with what direction this team needs to go roster construction wise.

Is everyone sold on Tatum/Brown as the top two guys? Like from here on out every roster move should be based around, "how does this player fit with Tatum/Brown"? Are people looking to keep those two and the rest of the roster is open to be moved?

Or more just of a, we need some small moves like an offensive microwave scorer specialist. Or a defensive big specialist?

Watching this team it feels like yall are kind of just stuck in the middle of everything. Its like they want Tatum/Brown to be the cornerstones of the roster, but havent really begun to build the roster around those two, it feels like Ainge is just trying to collect any kind of talent and hoping Stevens can make it work.

Or are people questioning the Tatum/Brown fit and think it would be best to flip one of them with the hope of a new star blood might get things clicking again in the right direction?

I’d say it’s a pretty mixed bag. Most us know that we need changes to really get the team to the next level but the problem is our asset collection is lacking and that’s really hard to do. I think many here are happy with the Jaylen and jt combo. It’s a pretty divisive topic talking about how to move forward.

I’m off the belief with some others that I’m not sure brown is a number 2 on a championship- I’d say we are in the minority though and browns hot start really had us looking foolish.

Ya ideally you give a clean build around Tatum/Brown before you trade one away. But ya I do question Brown's ceiling and the lack of tradeable assets kind of leads you to the thinking if you're going to make a big splash, youre going to need to flip Brown.

But even if its not a big splash, the roster needs a shakeup. The roster just seems stale at the moment.

[Duke4life831]

I havent been over here as much as I have in the past (still catching about 80% of Celtics games though). Curious what the feeling is with what direction this team needs to go roster construction wise.

Is everyone sold on Tatum/Brown as the top two guys? Like from here on out every roster move should be based around, "how does this player fit with Tatum/Brown"? Are people looking to keep those two and the rest of the roster is open to be moved?

Or more just of a, we need some small moves like an offensive microwave scorer specialist. Or a defensive big specialist?

Watching this team it feels like yall are kind of just stuck in the middle of everything. Its like they want Tatum/Brown to be the cornerstones of the roster, but havent really begun to build the roster around those two, it feels like Ainge is just trying to collect any kind of talent and hoping Stevens can make it work.

Or are people questioning the Tatum/Brown fit and think it would be best to flip one of them with the hope of a new star blood might get things clicking again in the right direction?

Spoiler:

I’m more in the minority a bit, but I’m worried about Jaylen and how good he can be going forward. Since that burner to start the year he’s been closer to last years Jaylen than a superstar. People get it twisted and think I dislike him because of this, but I’m strictly looking at it on if he can be a superstar or not. He’s an incredible person, and a very good player, but I just don’t know if he will ever reach that level.

I have real questions if Tatum can be a number 1 scorer on a title team as well, I lean towards probably not. But I feel his all around play is enough to be the best guy on a top team, which is funny irony considering what people thought of him coming out of college. But even if he can’t be a true championship #1 scoring option, his worst case is a 1B or a 2 on a championship team, whereas Jaylen may be closer to a 3 than a 2.

I’m not really loving the direction the team is going, a combo of inactivity by Danny, and crap luck with the Kings and Grizzlies pick. I don’t see a quick fix either, even moves like Barnes/etc still leaves this team short of true contender. That’s why I occasionally float Jaylen trade ideas, I feel like if you could turn him into a guy like Towns or Beal, it changes the teams ceiling. Especially Beal because he’d be the unquestioned number 1 scorer, and that would make Tatum infinitely more dangerous. He gets ALL of the defensive attention from other teams, when he’s out there, other teams treat the rest of the guys as afterthoughts for the most part.

Obviously even with Beal or Towns, the rest of the roster needs to be upgraded as well, but the league is about top end talent, and I think we need an upgrade.

I dont want to turn this into a trading Brown centric theme, but whats the value yall have him at? Say KAT and Beal are no goes. Say even if its a trade for someone Brown's age or younger, just for a shot in the arm for this roster.

Where do you have his value at compared to others his age and younger (ill leave out Zion and Luka)
Simmons
Bam
Ingram
Trae
SGA
Murray
Fox
Ja
(those are the bigger named young guys off the top of my head)

[31to6]

After years of wanting us to turn the keys over to JB and JT, I’m not loving the early returns. I’m willing to wait, or make a move if there’s one that sets us up for a better future. KAT and Sabonis are two of the only guys I can think of who might fit that criteria.

[Andrew McCeltic]

1. We can’t win a championship this year.

2. This team could be a lot better with a few tweaks - think Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk roleplayer impact.

3. The Celtics need to make trades to set up or become a championship team, but tweaks are much much easier to accomplish.

Are there any trades that meet both objectives, making the team better and more cohesive in the short term and putting us in better position to be contenders?

[MagicBagley18]

I havent been over here as much as I have in the past (still catching about 80% of Celtics games though). Curious what the feeling is with what direction this team needs to go roster construction wise.

Is everyone sold on Tatum/Brown as the top two guys? Like from here on out every roster move should be based around, "how does this player fit with Tatum/Brown"? Are people looking to keep those two and the rest of the roster is open to be moved?

Or more just of a, we need some small moves like an offensive microwave scorer specialist. Or a defensive big specialist?

Watching this team it feels like yall are kind of just stuck in the middle of everything. Its like they want Tatum/Brown to be the cornerstones of the roster, but havent really begun to build the roster around those two, it feels like Ainge is just trying to collect any kind of talent and hoping Stevens can make it work.

Or are people questioning the Tatum/Brown fit and think it would be best to flip one of them with the hope of a new star blood might get things clicking again in the right direction?

Spoiler:

I’m more in the minority a bit, but I’m worried about Jaylen and how good he can be going forward. Since that burner to start the year he’s been closer to last years Jaylen than a superstar. People get it twisted and think I dislike him because of this, but I’m strictly looking at it on if he can be a superstar or not. He’s an incredible person, and a very good player, but I just don’t know if he will ever reach that level.

I have real questions if Tatum can be a number 1 scorer on a title team as well, I lean towards probably not. But I feel his all around play is enough to be the best guy on a top team, which is funny irony considering what people thought of him coming out of college. But even if he can’t be a true championship #1 scoring option, his worst case is a 1B or a 2 on a championship team, whereas Jaylen may be closer to a 3 than a 2.

I’m not really loving the direction the team is going, a combo of inactivity by Danny, and crap luck with the Kings and Grizzlies pick. I don’t see a quick fix either, even moves like Barnes/etc still leaves this team short of true contender. That’s why I occasionally float Jaylen trade ideas, I feel like if you could turn him into a guy like Towns or Beal, it changes the teams ceiling. Especially Beal because he’d be the unquestioned number 1 scorer, and that would make Tatum infinitely more dangerous. He gets ALL of the defensive attention from other teams, when he’s out there, other teams treat the rest of the guys as afterthoughts for the most part.

Obviously even with Beal or Towns, the rest of the roster needs to be upgraded as well, but the league is about top end talent, and I think we need an upgrade.

I dont want to turn this into a trading Brown centric theme, but whats the value yall have him at? Say KAT and Beal are no goes. Say even if its a trade for someone Brown's age or younger, just for a shot in the arm for this roster.

Where do you have his value at compared to others his age and younger (ill leave out Zion and Luka)
Simmons
Bam
Ingram
Trae
SGA
Murray
Fox
Ja
(those are the bigger named young guys off the top of my head)

I’d trade him for simmons, ja, bam and sga pretty easily that’s just my opinion. Ingram most probably on real gm would do the deal I’d probably be partial to brown but I understand why others say Ingram. I think bam would just be a better fit for this team here in Boston not sure individually he’s that far ahead of jb

[Duke4life831]

After years of wanting us to turn the keys over to JB and JT, I’m not loving the early returns. I’m willing to wait, or make a move if there’s one that sets us up for a better future. KAT and Sabonis are two of the only guys I can think of who might fit that criteria.

Kemba still touches the ball a lot, he's second in touches and 1st in time per possession and you still have plenty of games where Kemba is taking 18-20 shots in a game. So there is still plenty of offense to get handed over to Tatum and Brown for them to be the true #1 and #2 guys on the offense.

So ideally I would like to see them just officially hand the keys to them and see what they could do. But you cant do that with a ball oriented score first PG like Kemba in the lineup. That is why I do agree if the route to be chosen was to officially hand the keys to Tatum/Brown and not look back, Lonzo is the ideal PG for that scenario.

But with that said, I do agree with what youre saying. Im not sure I want to see more offensive responsibilities handed to those two. Im a huge Tatum fan, but we have yet to see him be a high volume scorer and an above-average efficient scorer at the same time for long periods. And with Brown Im not sold in his offensive creativity of him being a guy that can consistently create his own shot against a set defense in the half court.

[Gomes3PC]

I think in an ideal world, Jaylen is your third best guy on a title team. I still have hope Jayson can be the best guy on a title team, but feels like he is more of a 1b than a clear cut 1A. Therein lies the issue. Do we stay patient and see if each can move up a rung? Or do you try to package Jaylen to move aggressively for someone who can be a true 1A and let Jayson be a 1B?

It's just tough, as I don't see an obvious option to acquire as a 1A or even a 1B (and trust Jayson will grow into the 1A).

The biggest issue I see with the Jay's is they don't really seem to make each other better. They both get along and play well when they are on the floor with each other, but there isn't an obvious 1+1=3 math with them like a Stockton/Malone or even a Curry/Klay. It's more like Russ and KD.

[LarryBirdsFingr]

We don't really have the ammo it seems. Huh.

[JediMasterRevan]

Jaylen is easily the 2nd top guy on a championship team.

His play level dropped off when his knee got sore. Healthy he is a stud, unhealthy and he is unimproved on last season.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Does anyone remember what Bradley Beal was like at the beginning of his career? Curry? Giannis? It takes time for players to develop - stressing over whether Tatum is 1A or 1B, Brown a second or third option... it’s not necessary. They’re going to continue to improve. A “third star” could help, but a strong supporting cast could make up the difference, too.

[Feed Your Head]

Jaylen is easily the 2nd top guy on a championship team.

His play level dropped off when his knee got sore. Healthy he is a stud, unhealthy and he is unimproved on last season.

The knee was a part of it obviously, but did anyone really expect him to continue being one of the deadliest mid range shooters ever? Over a 10-15 game sample? Once that percentage normalized, he became easier to defend, and he’s struggled to adjust. Part of that is he’s lacking a bit of explosion because of the knee, but a bigger part was correction from an unsustainable start shooting the ball.

It’s no different than Tatum’s percentage from 3 correcting, he wasn’t going to continue shooting 45% from deep in the volume he was taking, especially considering something like 67% of his threes are unassisted.

I’m not saying Jaylen can’t be the 2nd guy in a title team, I just think it’s more likely he will be a #3.

[SLCceltic]

this is such a dog sh*t take. It's always 2 years from now. Guess what. In 2 years there will be another super duper team and it'll be the window is now extending out 2 more years. . That's the way of the league. Danny is in a position to make his own super team...if he doesn't go for it then in a few years Brown and Tatum will leave and go form another superteam elsewhere. .He has 2 stars. he needs to figure this crap out and get it done.....I don't think they NEED a Harden-type to walk through that door in order to be a better team than BK. BK has 3 players. Shamet won't shoot like he did last night throughout a 7-game series. Neither will Kyrie. Yes Kyrie/KD/Harden is unreal. but the rest of that roster is pedestrian at best. If Danny added a Barnes and another useful vet to what he already has I really like the Celtics chances...BK can't guard anyone....If Boston has 4-5 guys that can score, then BK won't be able to stop Boston...and I like Boston's chances of getting a stop over BK's...... of course all of this assuming Ainge makes a couple moves. If he doesn't then this team simply isn't good enough to compete in the East this year. period. but they aren't far off either

Agreed

and neither one of you have any legitimate way to make this team a winner this year, now do you? C'mon, lets see the legitimate moves that either one of you would AND could make to elevate this team past BKL, PHL, LAL, UTA, DEN and a few others. Lots of hand wringing, but not one actual plan.

LmA & Kyle Lowry (in division trades muy difícil)
LmA & Barnes plus healthy Kemba gives us a real shot !