How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s

Moderators: cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285, Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid

otwok
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,320
And1: 2,328
Joined: May 19, 2010

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#121 » by otwok » Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:28 pm

picko wrote:
otwok wrote:
RSP83 wrote:
By that logic, In hindsight, yes, GOAT shooter Steph, 2nd GOAT shooter Klay, DPOY Draymond, DPOY Bogut, NBA Finals MVP Sixth man Iguodala.

The biggest part of the equation of that Bulls team is if you take out MJ. You are left with Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, and Phil Jackson. Not even sure that's a playoff team. Because in 95, minus Rodman, that team didn't look like they're making the playoff. I don't think Rodman would help much (frankly I don't think Rodman would work without MJ). So, I don't know, go ahead if you want to call them a super team. I wouldn't.
My thought is at the time if people weren't calling a team a super team at the moment and only started calling them that years sometimes decades later only based on results then they weren't a super team. It's irrelevant if it's organic or not.

I remember people were calling the kg/pierce/Allen Celtics a super team. Nobody was calling the Bulls a super team.


The terminology didn't exist then. So your way of thinking about this doesn't make sense.

Did everyone, at the time, believe that the Bulls were considerably better than their opponents? Yes. I recall the Bulls being the biggest sure thing I'd seen until the 2017 Warriors.

If those Bulls teams aren't superteams then quite frankly there are no superteams and we should stop wasting time talking about it.

However, I suspect the main reason that people are resistant to the Bulls being a superteam is because they somehow think it diminishes Jordan's legacy.
There were ideas of super teams. The 99 rockets were considered a super team.

But let's do this - define a super team.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Kukoc-Lauri
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,255
And1: 414
Joined: Oct 20, 2020

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#122 » by Kukoc-Lauri » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:15 pm

camby23 wrote:Michael Jordan has cited a number of compelling reasons for his surprise retirement in 1993, but one stands out as utterly perplexing in a modern context. Jordan revealed in Episode 7 of "The Last Dance" that he told Phil Jackson at the time that he had "no more challenges."

This was a uniquely 1990s problem. In the modern NBA, new challengers arise to face the champion every year. When LeBron James couldn't get past the Boston Celtics, he joined Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in an effort to take them down, and when James similarly intimidated Stephen Curry and Kevin Durant, they united to win the Golden State Warriors two championships. Superteams are not an organic element in the NBA ecosystem. They are a response to the last superteam.

But Jordan reigned over the NBA for most of a decade and deprived many of that era's greatest players of championships in the process. So why didn't, say, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing and Reggie Miller team up to oppose him? It's simple: the rules didn't allow it. While free agents were free to do as they saw fit for most of Jordan's career, the rules in place at the time made it almost impossible for superstars to actually use free agency to build their own contenders. To understand why, we need to venture back several decades to the very origins of free agency.

A brief history of free agency
The free agency enjoyed by modern players is a relatively new phenomenon. In fact, even the limited movement of the 1990s was an enormous shift from the league's early history. The NBA didn't grant any sort of free agency until 1976, and it only did so to settle a 1970 lawsuit brought about by Oscar Robertson.

The free agency adopted then had little in common with modern free agency. Teams were granted the right of first refusal on any contract offered to their own players, essentially making every player whose contract expired at that point the equivalent of a modern restricted free agent. If a team chose to let a player walk, the original team was granted compensation. That compensation was either negotiated between the two teams as a sort of trade, or decided unilaterally by the commissioner if the two sides could not agree.

This all changed four years into Jordan's career, when the 1988 CBA finally granted players unrestricted free agency once they'd hit certain criteria. As big a win as this was for players leaguewide, it didn't lead to the immediate formation of superteams. In fact, superstars were largely hesitant to explore unrestricted free agency at first. From the onset of unrestricted free agency in 1988 and Jordan's second retirement in 1998, only two reigning All-NBA players changed teams through free agency.

One was a 34-year-old Dominique Wilkins, who had already been traded a few months earlier. The other was Shaquille O'Neal, whose hometown fans infamously told him they didn't want him back at the price he was demanding. A third, Juwan Howard, tried to leave the Washington Bullets for the Miami Heat, but failed because the league ruled that the contract was illegal and that Miami had miscalculated its cap space.

Imagine something like that happening today. Teams spend years planning to have cap space in a specific moment because free agents change teams so frequently. It may have only happened twice in that first decade, but in the summer of 2019 alone, four different All-NBA players changed teams in free agency. It easily could've been more. The modern salary cap is designed to encourage player movement. The one that existed during Jordan's peak, though, was still built around the only reality the league had known to that point: superstars staying put. As a result, it functionally bound the overwhelming majority of superstars to their original team for the duration of their primes.

So let's look at some of the rules that enforced that reality, and how they were changed immediately after Jordan's retirement in the 1999 CBA. In some cases, they made it significantly harder for teams to create cap space. In others, they made it significantly harder for teams to use it. After all, the NBA at that point gave incumbent teams one enormous advantage in retaining their own players.

Larry Bird rights
The NBA has always used some version of this rule to allow teams to go over the salary cap to retain their own free agents. Those rules just became more stringent with time. In its original state, the Larry Bird Exception applied to any player who had been under his previous contract for at least one year. There were no exceptions and no tiers. All Bird Rights were created equal. The 1999 CBA altered this system into the one we have today. The current model includes three tiers: Non-Bird Rights (which came after one year), Early-Bird Rights (which come after two) and full Bird Rights (which come after three). Full Bird Rights allow a team to re-sign its own free agents for up to the max. Non-Bird Rights and Early-Bird Rights circumstantially allow some wiggle room, but not nearly that much.

This rule came from the right place. No team should lose an icon because of cap concerns. But it was utterly abused in practice, as players managed to use the it to circumvent the cap entirely and earn contracts that just wouldn't be possible today. Having no time restraints on Bird Rights meant that free agents pretty routinely signed short-term deals with the unwritten understanding that in the near future, they would re-sign newer, bigger deals that made up for the money they lost.

Horace Grant was the most famous example. He signed a suspicious five-year deal with the Orlando Magic in 1994. That deal paid him under $2.8 million for the 1995-96 season, but included an opt-out in the summer of 1996. Grant took it, and the new deal Orlando gave him paid him a cool $14.8 million for the 1996-97 season. Under the current rules, Grant would have only Early Bird Rights, and with them could have made only around $5.3 million that season from Orlando. This tactic was hardly confined to players of Grant's caliber, though. Chris Dudley executed a version of this plan so egregious that the league publicly called it "a blatant and transparent attempt" to circumvent the cap and challenged it in court.

If you're wondering why superstars didn't take advantage of this loophole, the short answer is that they didn't reach free agency often enough to do so. We'll explain why down the line. For the most part, teams used this tactic to bring in valuable players that weren't quite superstars. After all, if the NBA was willing to go to court over Dudley, imagine how it would have reacted if a team had nabbed Karl Malone on this sort of deal.

Almost every team in the league was taking advantage of this loophole in some form at the time. Without a Mid-Level Exception in place, it was the only tool a capped out team could use to add talent, and conversely, it was the only way a player could land with a team that lacked cap space. These under-the-table deals were so tempting and so inflated a team's cap numbers that preserving space required far more willpower. That was especially true given the lack of consequences of spending at the time.

The luxury tax
The NBA did not adopt any sort of luxury tax until the 1999 CBA. Even then, the tax would only be paid if the league as a whole paid players over a certain amount, not just individuals teams. That was corrected in 2005, and the more punitive version currently in existence was ratified in 2011. This meant that, so long as a team operated within the rules of the cap in acquiring and signing players, they would not be punished for spending literally any amount of money.

So what did this mean in terms of roster construction? Essentially, it gave teams the freedom to spend with impunity. The small-market Indiana Pacers had the third-highest payroll in the NBA by the 1996-97 season. Why? Because they spent over $18.7 million -- just under 77 percent of the cap -- on four players at the same position. They spent more on the combination of Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, Rik Smits and Derek McKey, all big men, than either Toronto or Vancouver spent on their entire rosters. There just wasn't a reason not to. They happened to have those players. They all produced. There was no financial punishment for keeping them. So they kept them. On some level, this was happening practically everywhere. Opportunity cost leads to prudence that didn't exist in the 1990s.

The combination of limitless Bird Rights and no luxury tax practically begged teams to spend money retaining their own players. As such, as their cap sheets were occupied with players modern teams would have the restraint not to spend on. As meaningful as that combination was, though, it is dwarfed in importance by the single biggest driver of free-agent movement.

The max contract
Players were legally allowed to be paid any amount a team would willingly pay them until 1999, so long as that number fit either underneath the salary cap or the player's Bird Rights. There were no restrictions on amount (Michael Jordan made 123 percent of the salary cap for the 1997-98 season), or options (Chris Webber's 15-year rookie deal included a first-year opt-out), and while the 1995 CBA created a seven-year restriction on length, prior contracts greatly exceeded it (such as Magic Johnson's 25-year deal).

The 1999 CBA created the current three-tiered max system we have today. Players with between four and six years of experience can earn 25 percent of the cap in the first year of a new contract. Players with between seven and nine years of experience can earn 30 percent of it in the first year of a new contract. Players with 10 more years of experience can make 35 percent of it in their first seasons. Lengths have varied over the years, but currently, a team can get five years from his own team and four years from a new one.

Before these restrictions were in place, teams greatly exceeded them on both fronts. Let's start with salary. The highest first-year salary any current free agent can get is 35 percent of the salary cap. But according to Hoops Hype's salary database, between Jordan's first championship season (1990-91) and his last (1997-98), a staggering 26 players made salaries above 35 percent of the cap. That list includes plenty of players who might've liked a superstar teammate with which to battle Jordan: David Robinson (five times), Patrick Ewing (four times), Reggie Miller (twice), Gary Payton (twice) and Alonzo Mourning (twice) all make multiple appearances on that list.

In many cases, players took up comical percentages of the cap. Ewing routinely took up gargantuan amounts, as high as 76 percent of the cap in Jordan's final season, though he did grant the Knicks a bit of flexibility in 1996 by structuring his contract to include a lower cap number that summer. That was flexibility the Spurs, for instance, lacked. David Robinson cost San Antonio 46 percent of it in Jordan's final season.

These huge numbers didn't just make cap space harder to create, they made it harder to use. It's common sense. Modern free agents are hardly incentivized to remain in place. The ceiling on their max could rise if they gain supermax eligibility, but under no circumstances can that exceed 35 percent, and without it, they can only get one extra year on their contract and slightly higher annual raises to stay put. If LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh had all been allowed to negotiate for their market value in 2010, there is no way that the Heat would have been able to afford all three. But the max essentially took financial incentives off of the table. If all three could play together for virtually the same amount of money that they would make on their own, then suddenly playing together becomes far more appealing.

Older superstars did not have to make such sacrifices. If Ewing could make 76 percent of the cap from the Knicks, then he'd essentially have to take a 50 percent pay cut to join a new team even a modern max deal. Top players at that point hogged such a ridiculous percentage of a team's cap space, and could similarly demand that much from their own teams thanks to their Bird Rights, that building a superteam elsewhere would simply be financially impractical.

It wasn't just the sheer salary of these deals that made free-agent movement so difficult. It was their length. Ewing, for example, didn't reach free agency until 1996, 11 years after he was drafted. His rookie contract could have lasted anywhere from six to 10 years based on options. The length of those contracts incentivized early renegotiation because market conditions change during the life of those deals.

Nowadays, player contracts are organically so short and so often contain opt-outs that if a player is underpaid, he'll reach free agency soon enough to correct that. At that point? A player might be underpaid and still have six or seven years left on a deal. Making more money meant committing more years. Superstars routinely signed new deals years before their old ones would expire to ensure that they were properly paid.

Now think about those longer contracts in the context of an entire roster. When a team wants to sign multiple stars today, it simply jettisons its role players, who are typically on short contracts. Doing so becomes significantly harder when those role players are on six- and seven-year deals. There was no stretch provision at this point in history either. If a team wanted to clear cap space, trading contracts was the only way to do so.

And finally, there's the mental toll of all of this. Teams were aware of all these realities. They knew that clearing cap space would require convincing stars to take pay cuts, hoping other stars didn't extend their contracts, and spending years either dumping their bad contracts or waiting for them to expire. It was such a perilous and unpredictable track that no team truly attempted it until the 2000 Orlando Magic. Using the methods described above made it easier to aim lower. Getting and retain role players was so simple that aiming for stars just wasn't appealing. To an extent, this was by design. Most of the past methods of superteam formation had been eliminated by league-intervention.

Where did the superteams of the 1980s come from?
Superteams were plentiful in the 1980s, and they are plentiful now. They just happened to be built in entirely different ways. Broadly speaking, most of the best teams of that decade stacked the deck using methods that are now illegal. One such practice involves an owner so infamous he now has a rule named after him.

Ted Stepien had no interest in rebuilding when he took over the Cleveland Cavaliers. He wanted a playoff team immediately, so he traded all of his draft picks for veteran help. That isn't an exaggeration. The Cavaliers did not keep a single one of their first-round picks during Stepien's entire tenure. Another team had their pick every year from 1980-86, and each selection was in the top nine. In 1982, that pick went to the Lakers. It was No. 1 overall. They used it to select James Worthy. Nowadays, this would be impossible because of the aptly-named Stepien Rule. It prevents teams from trading first-round picks in consecutive years.

The Philadelphia 76ers were able to take advantage of a different sort of desperation. When the ABA and NBA merged, the then-New York Nets owed the Knicks a $4.8 million fee for entering their territory. This is a fairly standard expansion and relocation clause that still exists in many sports today. The problem was that the Nets couldn't afford it, so they sold Julius Erving to the 76ers in order to pay off the Knicks. Today, any new ownership group would be vetted. It would have to be financially stable enough to support the franchise, and even if it wasn't, the sale of players for cash is now illegal. That it wasn't then allowed the 76ers to steal a Hall of Famer.

And then we have the Boston Celtics. Rather than exploit the trade market, they turned to the NBA Draft. With the No. 6 pick in the 1978 draft, they took Larry Bird. The only problem? Bird hadn't entered the draft. He remained in school at Indiana State, but the Celtics were able to retain his rights and sign him a year later, after he graduated. As with practically every other rule we've discussed, this one was changed as well. Players cannot be drafted and still return to college anymore. It is the second rule mentioned in this story named after Bird.

The perfect storm
The above moves were a staple of the 1980s. As Larry O'Brien gave way to commissioner David Stern in 1984, the NBA went from a somewhat lawless league into one with structural order. When a team exploited a rule to gain an unfair competitive advantage, the NBA changed that rule to protect the balance of the sport. By the time Jordan starting winning, the old methods of combating a team as dominant as the Bulls were all gone, yet the new ones that would eventually be concocted weren't yet possible. In other words, building a superteam was only possible through brilliant, by the numbers management.

And that's what the Bulls had. Not only did they select Jordan, but they had the foresight to select Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant in the same draft. They stole Dennis Rodman in a trade and pathologically underpaid Pippen to maintain flexibility. They identified Toni Kukoc in Europe and prioritized 3-point shooting guards next to Jordan like Steve Kerr and Craig Hodges before the rest of the league caught on to analytics. Jordan would have won championships practically no matter what. He was that good. But that he won six with dominant rosters around him came down to his front office's ability to surround him with more talent than anyone else.

In that sense, Jerry Krause was right all along. At that point in NBA history, players couldn't forcibly build their own dynasties. It was organizations that won championships.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-how-nba-rules-prevented-michael-jordans-bulls-from-facing-superteams-in-the-1990s/
You are seriously overrating Krause. First off all Rod Thorn drafted Jordan. Knowing Krause he would pick Bowie if available or Barkley. In 1986 Krause drafted bust Stacey King with 6 pick instead off Shawn Kemp and local guy Tim Hardaway. Rodman was out of the league. Fake Perdue trade for Rodman was made to match salary. Nobody wanted Rodman at the time. Not even Nba and David Stern. Bulls were among first teams to scout in Europe but they misshandeled Toni with adding him lot of weight and to play pf against bruisers Davis,Mason,Johnson. It is such mistake like Dallas would make Luka today to play small ball center. Krause traded Pippen for Kemp in 94, only riots of Sonics fans stopped trade. In 97 he traded Pippen for Mcgrady, Jordan vetoed that trade. TMac was in Chicago already but he was 18 yo. He also traded reserve center Caffey fron 72 win team for Rusty LaRue who played zero minutes. I would not mentioned his after dynasty moves like Brand over Francis, Chandler over Pau Gasol, Jay Williams over Amare Stoudemire and so on. G.Hill and TMac with almost Duncan singend in Orlando, and Krause who wanted them and had two max slots signed Ron Mercer. Magic&Bird saved Nba in Usa, but there is only one person who made Nba global brand. His name is Michael Jordan.
Pg81
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,425
And1: 2,662
Joined: Apr 20, 2014
 

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#123 » by Pg81 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:19 pm

RSP83 wrote:
ciueli wrote:
BallinBug wrote:
Yes, but they became good because of Jordan - his coaching, leadership and example. Had Pippen played his career on another team he would have amounted to an average role player at best.


So Jordan now gets the credit for turning Pippen into a star? And he's somehow the coach of the Bulls too? No credit for the front office that made decisions Jordan disagreed with (trading Charles Oakley for the pick they used to draft Pippen) or Phil Jackson (in spite of him having more rings than fingers to put them on)?


Wow. Pippen better than Kawhi? You do know that Kawhi lead the Toronto Raptors to championship? Hit a game 7 buzzer beater to advance his team to the Finals.

Credit to Pippen for keeping that 55 win Bulls team going post-MJ retirement, he was super motivated to show that he was not just MJ's sidekick. But in the playoff and the next season (below .500) it's proven that Pippen just didn't have it mentally to sustain his level of play as the number 1 guy for the long haul. Pippen is a great player and definitely one of the most unique player among HoF-ers, but no, Kawhi is a legit franchise player, and Pippen is not.

Pippen used to be underrated, but lately I think he's being overrated by many people. And people often bring up Bulls 94's 55-win season, which I think is not enough to assess Pippen's rank among greats.

:crazy:

Johnny Bball wrote:
camby23 wrote:So can we at least stop bashing LeBron or Durant for creacting superteams, and stop talking bullsh...that Jordan would never have call Magic and Bird (and dozens of such nonsense) ? The rules in 90sand 80s were completely different.


No. Their attitudes were different. They were real competitors. Yet none of them left in free agency to join Magic, or Bird or whatever and team up. None of them demanded trades to specific teams to make a super team. They could have gamed the system. They could have colluded. They did not.

:roll:
Magic forced his way to LA so he could play with Kareem who was nearing the end of his prime but was still one of if not the best center in the league. Add Worthy and Cooper into the mix and why would Magic want to go anywhere else? Bird? He had little help in his first year but Parish and McHale joined soon after. Why would Bird have left?
Anyone with an ounce of basketball knowledge realizes that one player can almost never win it all and in well over 50 years of modern NBA basketball it happened only 3 times where a sole superstar leading competent role players to a title.
LeBron? I really do not get the hate. For years he had to watch helplessly as superstars like Kobe, KG and Duncan were priviliged with great talent around them winning titles and having superteams of their own while he dragged a complete drek roster into the playoffs year after year. Why would he not team up with someone? It was done many times before he did it. People hark on that Miami team but it was completely new and unproven. People like to bring up KD as if it was even remotely the same when it could not have been more different.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
GeorgeMarcus, 17/11/2019
picko
Veteran
Posts: 2,603
And1: 3,719
Joined: May 17, 2018

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#124 » by picko » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:27 pm

otwok wrote:
picko wrote:
otwok wrote:My thought is at the time if people weren't calling a team a super team at the moment and only started calling them that years sometimes decades later only based on results then they weren't a super team. It's irrelevant if it's organic or not.

I remember people were calling the kg/pierce/Allen Celtics a super team. Nobody was calling the Bulls a super team.


The terminology didn't exist then. So your way of thinking about this doesn't make sense.

Did everyone, at the time, believe that the Bulls were considerably better than their opponents? Yes. I recall the Bulls being the biggest sure thing I'd seen until the 2017 Warriors.

If those Bulls teams aren't superteams then quite frankly there are no superteams and we should stop wasting time talking about it.

However, I suspect the main reason that people are resistant to the Bulls being a superteam is because they somehow think it diminishes Jordan's legacy.
There were ideas of super teams. The 99 rockets were considered a super team.

But let's do this - define a super team.


A team with an overwhelming talent advantage that maintains that advantage over multiple seasons. Can include both players and coaching. For example, the 1995-96 to 1997-98 Bulls.

The 1990s Bulls, the Shaq / Kobe Lakers, the Heat from 2011-13 and the recent Warriors are the only genuine examples of superteams that we have seen in three decades. Of those four, the Heat were, by far, the weakest of those superteams and the one that felt the easiest to overcome.
NZB2323
RealGM
Posts: 14,579
And1: 11,173
Joined: Aug 02, 2008

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#125 » by NZB2323 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:29 pm

NADALalot wrote:
camby23 wrote:
bisme37 wrote:Good info but I don't know why it's directed at MJ rather than just being a primer on the league and salary cap at that time. MJ didn't face superteams but he also wasn't on a superteam. And other players were also not on or playing against superteams. So there was no superteam-related competitive advantage or disadvantage for MJ or anyone else.


Bulls was a superteam for 90s standards.

How many points did Rodman average again? 5.5, 5.7 and 4.7 in those 3 championship years with the Bulls.
And in 1990-91 Jordan was the only Bull to make the All-Star game.


And in 97-98 Jordan was the only Bull to make the All-Star team. Pippen only played in 44 games, had a migraine in the last game of the season where he only scored 8 points, Rodman an aging alcoholic who washed out of the league a year after and was having vegas vacations during the regular season and missing practice in the playoffs for WWE. The 98 Bulls are also the oldest team to ever win a championship by the average age of player per minute played.

In the 98 Playoffs, Rodman averaged 5 points, 12 rebounds, and 2 assists per game. He also didn't make an all-defensive team that year.

The 98 Bulls are one of the worst supporting casts for any championship team.

If Jordan/Pippen/Rodman of 1998 is a superteam then so were Shaq/Penny/Grant, Isiah/Dumars/Rodman, Magic/Worthy/Vlade, Malone/Stockton/Hornachek, Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler, Shaq/Kobe/Eddie Johnson, Robinson/Duncan/Avery Johnson, Payton/Kemp/Detleft Schrempf, etc.

Not to mention the fact that Jordan lost twice in the playoffs to the Celtics who had Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, Danny Ainge, and Bill Walton.

The 1996 Chicago Bulls could be called a superteam, but the 1998 team was far from a superteam.
Thaddy wrote:I can tell you right now the Bulls will collapse by mid season and will be fighting in or for the play in.

Remember it.
twyzted
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,880
And1: 2,208
Joined: Jun 01, 2018
     

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#126 » by twyzted » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:27 pm

picko wrote:
otwok wrote:
picko wrote:
The terminology didn't exist then. So your way of thinking about this doesn't make sense.

Did everyone, at the time, believe that the Bulls were considerably better than their opponents? Yes. I recall the Bulls being the biggest sure thing I'd seen until the 2017 Warriors.

If those Bulls teams aren't superteams then quite frankly there are no superteams and we should stop wasting time talking about it.

However, I suspect the main reason that people are resistant to the Bulls being a superteam is because they somehow think it diminishes Jordan's legacy.
There were ideas of super teams. The 99 rockets were considered a super team.

But let's do this - define a super team.


A team with an overwhelming talent advantage that maintains that advantage over multiple seasons. Can include both players and coaching. For example, the 1995-96 to 1997-98 Bulls.

The 1990s Bulls, the Shaq / Kobe Lakers, the Heat from 2011-13 and the recent Warriors are the only genuine examples of superteams that we have seen in three decades. Of those four, the Heat were, by far, the weakest of those superteams and the one that felt the easiest to overcome.


https://www.nba.com/news/super-teams-part-nba-history-even-current-era

Only heat and kd warriors are superteams.
Pennebaker wrote:Jordan lacks LeBron's mental toughness.
User avatar
Johnny Bball
RealGM
Posts: 55,005
And1: 59,393
Joined: Feb 01, 2015
 

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#127 » by Johnny Bball » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:32 pm

Pg81 wrote:
RSP83 wrote:
ciueli wrote:
So Jordan now gets the credit for turning Pippen into a star? And he's somehow the coach of the Bulls too? No credit for the front office that made decisions Jordan disagreed with (trading Charles Oakley for the pick they used to draft Pippen) or Phil Jackson (in spite of him having more rings than fingers to put them on)?


Wow. Pippen better than Kawhi? You do know that Kawhi lead the Toronto Raptors to championship? Hit a game 7 buzzer beater to advance his team to the Finals.

Credit to Pippen for keeping that 55 win Bulls team going post-MJ retirement, he was super motivated to show that he was not just MJ's sidekick. But in the playoff and the next season (below .500) it's proven that Pippen just didn't have it mentally to sustain his level of play as the number 1 guy for the long haul. Pippen is a great player and definitely one of the most unique player among HoF-ers, but no, Kawhi is a legit franchise player, and Pippen is not.

Pippen used to be underrated, but lately I think he's being overrated by many people. And people often bring up Bulls 94's 55-win season, which I think is not enough to assess Pippen's rank among greats.

:crazy:

Johnny Bball wrote:
camby23 wrote:So can we at least stop bashing LeBron or Durant for creacting superteams, and stop talking bullsh...that Jordan would never have call Magic and Bird (and dozens of such nonsense) ? The rules in 90sand 80s were completely different.


No. Their attitudes were different. They were real competitors. Yet none of them left in free agency to join Magic, or Bird or whatever and team up. None of them demanded trades to specific teams to make a super team. They could have gamed the system. They could have colluded. They did not.

:roll:
Magic forced his way to LA so he could play with Kareem who was nearing the end of his prime but was still one of if not the best center in the league. Add Worthy and Cooper into the mix and why would Magic want to go anywhere else? Bird? He had little help in his first year but Parish and McHale joined soon after. Why would Bird have left?

Anyone with an ounce of basketball knowledge realizes that one player can almost never win it all and in well over 50 years of modern NBA basketball it happened only 3 times where a sole superstar leading competent role players to a title.
LeBron? I really do not get the hate. For years he had to watch helplessly as superstars like Kobe, KG and Duncan were priviliged with great talent around them winning titles and having superteams of their own while he dragged a complete drek roster into the playoffs year after year. Why would he not team up with someone? It was done many times before he did it. People hark on that Miami team but it was completely new and unproven. People like to bring up KD as if it was even remotely the same when it could not have been more different.


:roll: That has what to do with anything and invalidates this how? You have a single example to a team that hadn't won before i decades, had the second pick, the Lakers won the flip and picked first, an took magic, and was Magic a superstar before the draft that demanded a trade or left in free agency?

Quote someone else next time you want to invent an argument.
art_tatum
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,740
And1: 4,391
Joined: Jun 01, 2018
 

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#128 » by art_tatum » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:40 pm

Lol what? There were many great duos in the 90s with quality role players. That's what the bulls were except for like 1 season where rodman can be considered a star player statistically.
twyzted
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,880
And1: 2,208
Joined: Jun 01, 2018
     

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#129 » by twyzted » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:42 pm

NZB2323 wrote:
NADALalot wrote:
camby23 wrote:
Bulls was a superteam for 90s standards.

How many points did Rodman average again? 5.5, 5.7 and 4.7 in those 3 championship years with the Bulls.
And in 1990-91 Jordan was the only Bull to make the All-Star game.


And in 97-98 Jordan was the only Bull to make the All-Star team. Pippen only played in 44 games, had a migraine in the last game of the season where he only scored 8 points, Rodman an aging alcoholic who washed out of the league a year after and was having vegas vacations during the regular season and missing practice in the playoffs for WWE. The 98 Bulls are also the oldest team to ever win a championship by the average age of player per minute played.

In the 98 Playoffs, Rodman averaged 5 points, 12 rebounds, and 2 assists per game. He also didn't make an all-defensive team that year.

The 98 Bulls are one of the worst supporting casts for any championship team.

If Jordan/Pippen/Rodman of 1998 is a superteam then so were Shaq/Penny/Grant, Isiah/Dumars/Rodman, Magic/Worthy/Vlade, Malone/Stockton/Hornachek, Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler, Shaq/Kobe/Eddie Johnson, Robinson/Duncan/Avery Johnson, Payton/Kemp/Detleft Schrempf, etc.

Not to mention the fact that Jordan lost twice in the playoffs to the Celtics who had Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, Danny Ainge, and Bill Walton.

The 1996 Chicago Bulls could be called a superteam, but the 1998 team was far from a superteam.


97 bulls were not so good either
Only Jordan and pippen scored over 7.5 ppg.

Dennis Rodman Advanced stats 97 playoffs
PER 7.9 TS% .427 3PTr .198 FTr .321 ORB% 12.4 DRB% 23.0 TRB% 17.5 AST% 7.6 STL% 1.0 BLK% 0.7 TOV% 23.2 USG% 10.5 OWS -0.1 DWS 1.0 WS 0.8 WS/48 .074 OBPM -3.0 DBPM 0.1 BPM -2.9 VORP -0.1

Not close to a super team.
Pennebaker wrote:Jordan lacks LeBron's mental toughness.
kingmalaki
Pro Prospect
Posts: 822
And1: 120
Joined: Dec 28, 2006

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#130 » by kingmalaki » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:43 pm

Got Nuffin wrote:He doesn't get credit for turning Pippen into a star, but he DOES get credit for turning Pippen into the fierce competitor that he became. Pippen was routinely referred to and labelled as 'soft' in his early years and teams like the Pistons and Knicks targeted him because they knew he would back down when faced with physical play / any adversity.

Would Pippen have developed a spine without Jordan by his side? Maybe, maybe not, but playing with Jordan eventually seemed to bring out the best in him.


Pippen wasn't known as soft. That all stems from the G7 where he had a migraine. Jordan didn't help him not have a migraine the following year. Pippen was drafted in 87 and continued to improve his game, and once he reached stud status they won. Jordan didn't make him. Jordan isn't the reason he had a competitive drive. Stop trying to give one man credit for what another man did.

FYI, the Bulls as a whole...Jordan included...were constantly crying to the league to stop Detroit from their physical style of play. That's as soft as it get's. Jordan is even on record saying we may have run to the principal or whatever (something like that).
AussieCeltic
RealGM
Posts: 13,019
And1: 24,234
Joined: Jan 02, 2014
 

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#131 » by AussieCeltic » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:54 pm

DCasey91 wrote:The Jordan romantization/mysticism gets out of hand.

Pre 1991 with today’s social media my lord. He definitely had a certain tag before he won. Imagine what it would be like today

Jordan did this Jordan that. Lol at the Pippen thing stud prospect, pretty sure he finished in the votes one year when Jordan wasn’t playing.

The doco glossing over so many elements it was disperectful to those at the Bulls organization during that whole decade.

Before as well

Dean Smith
Phil Jackson
Jerry Krause
Tex Winter
Scottie Pippen
Rodman

Jordan didn’t make any of them they were who they were. Not to mention others there’s a list there. Harper for ffs averaged 20 and was another teams franchise player.

It’s cool he was painted as the messiah/global icon during the 90’s I get it.


That’s like saying Lebron played with prime Ray Allen who was a franchise player. Ron Harper went to the Bulls when MJ was playing baseball and averaged a measly 6ppg. Yes he averaged 20ppg his last season with the Clippers, but he also took nearly 18 shots to get there with a true shooting percentage of 49%. Do you know how bad that is?
LaLover11 wrote:I bet you $100 Mavs beat the Celtics
picko
Veteran
Posts: 2,603
And1: 3,719
Joined: May 17, 2018

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#132 » by picko » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:28 am

art_tatum wrote:Lol what? There were many great duos in the 90s with quality role players. That's what the bulls were except for like 1 season where rodman can be considered a star player statistically.


At one point the Bulls had the greatest player in league history, the league's best small forward (and perimeter defender), the greatest rebounder in league history and the league's best sixth man. Oh and arguably the greatest coach of all-time.

There isn't a single team in the 1990s that even come close to that sort of talent. It wasn't until KD joined the Warriors that we even had a modern equivalent.

Outside of the KD-era Warriors, there isn't a more egregious example of a superteam in the past fifty years. They were comically ahead of their peers from a talent standpoint.
BallinBug
Senior
Posts: 706
And1: 482
Joined: Nov 19, 2018

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#133 » by BallinBug » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:44 am

picko wrote:
otwok wrote:
picko wrote:
The terminology didn't exist then. So your way of thinking about this doesn't make sense.

Did everyone, at the time, believe that the Bulls were considerably better than their opponents? Yes. I recall the Bulls being the biggest sure thing I'd seen until the 2017 Warriors.

If those Bulls teams aren't superteams then quite frankly there are no superteams and we should stop wasting time talking about it.

However, I suspect the main reason that people are resistant to the Bulls being a superteam is because they somehow think it diminishes Jordan's legacy.
There were ideas of super teams. The 99 rockets were considered a super team.

But let's do this - define a super team.


A team with an overwhelming talent advantage that maintains that advantage over multiple seasons. Can include both players and coaching. For example, the 1995-96 to 1997-98 Bulls.

The 1990s Bulls, the Shaq / Kobe Lakers, the Heat from 2011-13 and the recent Warriors are the only genuine examples of superteams that we have seen in three decades. Of those four, the Heat were, by far, the weakest of those superteams and the one that felt the easiest to overcome.


The bulls were never a super team. They had MJ, that's it. The team itself was filled with bums and scrap metal that MJ molded into something that worked. Winning 72 doesn't make you a superteam if it's because of one guy.
User avatar
RSP83
Head Coach
Posts: 7,214
And1: 4,250
Joined: Sep 14, 2010
 

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#134 » by RSP83 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:56 am

Pg81 wrote:
RSP83 wrote:
ciueli wrote:
So Jordan now gets the credit for turning Pippen into a star? And he's somehow the coach of the Bulls too? No credit for the front office that made decisions Jordan disagreed with (trading Charles Oakley for the pick they used to draft Pippen) or Phil Jackson (in spite of him having more rings than fingers to put them on)?


Wow. Pippen better than Kawhi? You do know that Kawhi lead the Toronto Raptors to championship? Hit a game 7 buzzer beater to advance his team to the Finals.

Credit to Pippen for keeping that 55 win Bulls team going post-MJ retirement, he was super motivated to show that he was not just MJ's sidekick. But in the playoff and the next season (below .500) it's proven that Pippen just didn't have it mentally to sustain his level of play as the number 1 guy for the long haul. Pippen is a great player and definitely one of the most unique player among HoF-ers, but no, Kawhi is a legit franchise player, and Pippen is not.

Pippen used to be underrated, but lately I think he's being overrated by many people. And people often bring up Bulls 94's 55-win season, which I think is not enough to assess Pippen's rank among greats.

:crazy:



Care to elaborate?
art_tatum
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,740
And1: 4,391
Joined: Jun 01, 2018
 

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#135 » by art_tatum » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:57 am

picko wrote:
art_tatum wrote:Lol what? There were many great duos in the 90s with quality role players. That's what the bulls were except for like 1 season where rodman can be considered a star player statistically.


At one point the Bulls had the greatest player in league history, the league's best small forward (and perimeter defender), the greatest rebounder in league history and the league's best sixth man. Oh and arguably the greatest coach of all-time.

There isn't a single team in the 1990s that even come close to that sort of talent. It wasn't until KD joined the Warriors that we even had a modern equivalent.

Outside of the KD-era Warriors, there isn't a more egregious example of a superteam in the past fifty years. They were comically ahead of their peers from a talent standpoint.


That's just mostly ause of how good MJ is. And Pippen as a robin.
Like i said one year I consider them unfair with rodman. But he was out of his prime after that year.

Hell what's the difference between the last two years of the 3peat (where rodman got worse and worse, with Pippen injured last year) and the lakers last and this year?
Lebron- some say the best player
AD- top player AD and lebron both 1st team last year. Something that didn't happen since shaq and kobe. Not even curry and KD were first team together.
This year lakers have TWO recently 6man of the years.

90s. Like others have said had plenty of great duos and a supporting cast.

No one in the league had 3 foundational players from different teams (lebron wade bosh) join together, or when a top 3 player like KD join a top 3 player in Curry and their used to be 73 win Team.

U can't blame the bulls being overpowered, just cause jordan was clutch and won while the heatles went 2/4 and warriors 2/3 ( on injuries to KD tho). Cause the heatles were supposed to win more than 2 based on talent, and the KD warriors as well.
Got Nuffin
Rookie
Posts: 1,134
And1: 1,069
Joined: Apr 19, 2014
     

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#136 » by Got Nuffin » Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:03 am

kingmalaki wrote:
Got Nuffin wrote:He doesn't get credit for turning Pippen into a star, but he DOES get credit for turning Pippen into the fierce competitor that he became. Pippen was routinely referred to and labelled as 'soft' in his early years and teams like the Pistons and Knicks targeted him because they knew he would back down when faced with physical play / any adversity.

Would Pippen have developed a spine without Jordan by his side? Maybe, maybe not, but playing with Jordan eventually seemed to bring out the best in him.


Pippen wasn't known as soft. That all stems from the G7 where he had a migraine. Jordan didn't help him not have a migraine the following year. Pippen was drafted in 87 and continued to improve his game, and once he reached stud status they won. Jordan didn't make him. Jordan isn't the reason he had a competitive drive. Stop trying to give one man credit for what another man did.

FYI, the Bulls as a whole...Jordan included...were constantly crying to the league to stop Detroit from their physical style of play. That's as soft as it get's. Jordan is even on record saying we may have run to the principal or whatever (something like that).


Pippen was absolutely known as soft in his early years by the media and the opposing players.

"He's soft. A small forward in the strictest sense of the word. That's what they say about him. Give him a couple of hard shots and watch him disappear from the lane."

https://buffalonews.com/news/all-everything-pippen-has-outgrown-soft-label/article_aedfa8b5-b90d-5cbf-8325-0c5961749fe3.html
Image
Pg81
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,425
And1: 2,662
Joined: Apr 20, 2014
 

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#137 » by Pg81 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:52 am

RSP83 wrote:
Pg81 wrote:
RSP83 wrote:
Wow. Pippen better than Kawhi? You do know that Kawhi lead the Toronto Raptors to championship? Hit a game 7 buzzer beater to advance his team to the Finals.

Credit to Pippen for keeping that 55 win Bulls team going post-MJ retirement, he was super motivated to show that he was not just MJ's sidekick. But in the playoff and the next season (below .500) it's proven that Pippen just didn't have it mentally to sustain his level of play as the number 1 guy for the long haul. Pippen is a great player and definitely one of the most unique player among HoF-ers, but no, Kawhi is a legit franchise player, and Pippen is not.

Pippen used to be underrated, but lately I think he's being overrated by many people. And people often bring up Bulls 94's 55-win season, which I think is not enough to assess Pippen's rank among greats.

:crazy:



Care to elaborate?


It is blatant nonsense to use 1995 as a strike against Pippen where the Bulls in addition to MJ the previous year also lost Grant so now it was Pippen with some role player veterans and Kukoc and no interior defense which was one of the most important things in the league. Jordan would not have won anything either in place for Pippen and in fact they lost worse against the Magic than against the Knicks the year prior ironically against a team with Grant now on their team. That is why they acquired Rodman next season because he fixed that one big hole left by Grant and in terms of rebounding and hustle he was even an upgrade.
Same with the final 1.8 seconds where he wanted to show that he can pull a win to get out of MJs shadow which is why he demanded that last shot. Anyone trying to discredit an entire career of a player due to one play in the final second of a game is plain disingenuous.
"Mentally sustain" yeah and MJ could not mentally sustain more than 3 final wins while Russell won 8 in a row and 11 in total so I guess MJ was mentally weak in comparison to Russell. :roll:

Got Nuffin wrote:
kingmalaki wrote:
Got Nuffin wrote:He doesn't get credit for turning Pippen into a star, but he DOES get credit for turning Pippen into the fierce competitor that he became. Pippen was routinely referred to and labelled as 'soft' in his early years and teams like the Pistons and Knicks targeted him because they knew he would back down when faced with physical play / any adversity.

Would Pippen have developed a spine without Jordan by his side? Maybe, maybe not, but playing with Jordan eventually seemed to bring out the best in him.


Pippen wasn't known as soft. That all stems from the G7 where he had a migraine. Jordan didn't help him not have a migraine the following year. Pippen was drafted in 87 and continued to improve his game, and once he reached stud status they won. Jordan didn't make him. Jordan isn't the reason he had a competitive drive. Stop trying to give one man credit for what another man did.

FYI, the Bulls as a whole...Jordan included...were constantly crying to the league to stop Detroit from their physical style of play. That's as soft as it get's. Jordan is even on record saying we may have run to the principal or whatever (something like that).


Pippen was absolutely known as soft in his early years by the media and the opposing players.

"He's soft. A small forward in the strictest sense of the word. That's what they say about him. Give him a couple of hard shots and watch him disappear from the lane."

https://buffalonews.com/news/all-everything-pippen-has-outgrown-soft-label/article_aedfa8b5-b90d-5cbf-8325-0c5961749fe3.html


Yes ignorance is bliss and people back then were very ignorant.

BallinBug wrote:
picko wrote:
otwok wrote:There were ideas of super teams. The 99 rockets were considered a super team.

But let's do this - define a super team.


A team with an overwhelming talent advantage that maintains that advantage over multiple seasons. Can include both players and coaching. For example, the 1995-96 to 1997-98 Bulls.

The 1990s Bulls, the Shaq / Kobe Lakers, the Heat from 2011-13 and the recent Warriors are the only genuine examples of superteams that we have seen in three decades. Of those four, the Heat were, by far, the weakest of those superteams and the one that felt the easiest to overcome.


The bulls were never a super team. They had MJ, that's it. The team itself was filled with bums and scrap metal that MJ molded into something that worked. Winning 72 doesn't make you a superteam if it's because of one guy.

:crazy:

Johnny Bball wrote: :roll: That has what to do with anything and invalidates this how? You have a single example to a team that hadn't won before i decades, had the second pick, the Lakers won the flip and picked first, an took magic, and was Magic a superstar before the draft that demanded a trade or left in free agency?

Quote someone else next time you want to invent an argument.


It completely discredits the notion that they were more of competitors than other players of more modern eras. That is simply untrue they were in great situations and got lucky with the team mates they got. As we can see with MJ, who was considered equal as a competitor, when the talent was not around even players of their caliber were not above messing with the FO or trying to force trades. Sorry to burst your bubble that players back then were some magical ubermensch that was heads and shoulders above the peasantry of today. :roll:
Oh and you do not get to tell me whether I can quote you or not, not even if you were a moderator. Stop being so arrogant your shoddy argumentation does not warrant that.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
GeorgeMarcus, 17/11/2019
Gabe Ball
Junior
Posts: 425
And1: 136
Joined: Jul 01, 2020
       

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#138 » by Gabe Ball » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:17 am

Interesting take. So essentially superteams have been in existence for a long time and the people who had the authority to create said superteam shifted from solely the organization to the organization and the player. Never thought of it like that before.
User avatar
Johnny Bball
RealGM
Posts: 55,005
And1: 59,393
Joined: Feb 01, 2015
 

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#139 » by Johnny Bball » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:28 am

Pg81 wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote: :roll: That has what to do with anything and invalidates this how? You have a single example to a team that hadn't won before i decades, had the second pick, the Lakers won the flip and picked first, an took magic, and was Magic a superstar before the draft that demanded a trade or left in free agency?

Quote someone else next time you want to invent an argument.


It completely discredits the notion that they were more of competitors than other players of more modern eras. That is simply untrue they were in great situations and got lucky with the team mates they got. As we can see with MJ, who was considered equal as a competitor, when the talent was not around even players of their caliber were not above messing with the FO or trying to force trades. Sorry to burst your bubble that players back then were some magical ubermensch that was heads and shoulders above the peasantry of today. :roll:

Oh and you do not get to tell me whether I can quote you or not, not even if you were a moderator. Stop being so arrogant your shoddy argumentation does not warrant that.


Except its a lie. Magic didn't force his way to LA, they had the first pick and drafted him anyway. I mean that's twice now. When you want to downplay if Jordan wasn't ultra competitive when that's just either really just the worst take or a lie? And neither forced their team to trade them to a stacked team. So am I supposed to want to waste my time responding to lies?

I'm going to put you on my foes list. So yeah, keep responding and I will let the mods sort you out, since, yeah, they can.
User avatar
RSP83
Head Coach
Posts: 7,214
And1: 4,250
Joined: Sep 14, 2010
 

Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#140 » by RSP83 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:54 am

Pg81 wrote:
RSP83 wrote:
Pg81 wrote: :crazy:



Care to elaborate?


It is blatant nonsense to use 1995 as a strike against Pippen where the Bulls in addition to MJ the previous year also lost Grant so now it was Pippen with some role player veterans and Kukoc and no interior defense which was one of the most important things in the league. Jordan would not have won anything either in place for Pippen and in fact they lost worse against the Magic than against the Knicks the year prior ironically against a team with Grant now on their team. That is why they acquired Rodman next season because he fixed that one big hole left by Grant and in terms of rebounding and hustle he was even an upgrade.
Same with the final 1.8 seconds where he wanted to show that he can pull a win to get out of MJs shadow which is why he demanded that last shot. Anyone trying to discredit an entire career of a player due to one play in the final second of a game is plain disingenuous.
"Mentally sustain" yeah and MJ could not mentally sustain more than 3 final wins while Russell won 8 in a row and 11 in total so I guess MJ was mentally weak in comparison to Russell. :roll:


Why are you making this about MJ? yes the thread is about MJ, but I was talking about Pippen. are you one of them guys with anti-MJ agenda?

The Pippen as good as Kawhi argument triggered me. Didn't have anything to do with MJ. If I'm the Raptors or the Clippers, would trade for / sign for Pippen over Kawhi? no way! There's a reason why Phil wanted Kukoc to take that shot, and there are many highlights you can find on youtube on Kukoc clutch moments (see my footnote).

the MJ vs. Russell thing ... what does that have anything to do with Pippen? Scottie Pippen folded as the team's alpha at one of the most important stage of his career in 1994 vs. Knicks... as a teammate how are you going to react to your leader not trusting you and your other teammates? not only that Pippen refuse to be on the court on that last 1.8 second.... but Kukoc actually hit the shot that won the game as well, and Phil was right. Was it a suprise that the next season Pippen lost his teammates trust? Pippen up to that point was doing all the right thing, but as I mentioned, he cannot mentally sustain it as 'The Guy'.

Not discrediting Pippen's career, just calling a spade, a spade. Responding to other post in this thread, I agree that Pippen was probably the best SF in the league for the most part of the 90s, one of the best defenders ever (notice I don't mention perimeter or interior, just overall phenomenal defender), and arguably the best sidekick ever. Deserves his place in the HoF. But I also raised this question, "why was Pippen not as successful without the triangle offense? (Rockets and Blazers stints)."

Back to my first comment, do you seriously take Pippen over Kawhi?

Bonus, Kukoc clutch moments:



Return to The General Board