Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder

[Dark Faze]

I wouldn't say we "won" the trade--having our future first clogged up for the next 5 years or so is extremely frustrating, but it's becoming clear that this version of Westbrook (assumed healthy) is the better player.

[TGW]

I wouldn't say we "won" the trade--having our future first clogged up for the next 5 years or so is extremely frustrating, but it's becoming clear that this version of Westbrook (assumed healthy) is the better player.

Anyone who thinks Westbrook is better than Wall at this point is delusional. Even with Westbrook's nice stat padding game last night, his advanced numbers are still inferior to wall's.

And that pick is going to convey. Knowing the Wizards track record the past few years of picking 9, 9, 15, and 19 in the past four seasons, if this trend were to continue, the pick is going to be conveyed unless the team completely tanks from 2023-2026.

[Dark Faze]

I'm talking future projection. Westbrook played through injury much of the year and probably shouldn't have been on the court. His recent play has looked much more in line with the kind of numbers he was delivering last year, and if he continues along that trend line then I expect we have the better player at this point.

Agreed on the pick conveying.

One thing that's disappointed me about John's play is his rebounding and assist numbers. I'm not sure why they are so down. This is the highest usage of his career, yet the lowest assist % of his career by a mile. And the terrible rebounding is strange considering he's played quite a few games without Christian Wood or anyone who can really rebound the ball, so in theory a "rebounding by committee" mindset should be helping his numbers there.

[nate33]

I wouldn't say we "won" the trade--having our future first clogged up for the next 5 years or so is extremely frustrating, but it's becoming clear that this version of Westbrook (assumed healthy) is the better player.

Anyone who thinks Westbrook is better than Wall at this point is delusional. Even with Westbrook's nice stat padding game last night, his advanced numbers are still inferior to wall's.

And that pick is going to convey. Knowing the Wizards track record the past few years of picking 9, 9, 15, and 19 in the past four seasons, if this trend were to continue, the pick is going to be conveyed unless the team completely tanks from 2023-2026.

Wall isn't THAT much more efficient than Westbrook, which is disturbing. Then factor Westbrook's massive advantage on rebounds and assists, and it's actually closer than I expected. Heck, if Westbrook would just hit his free throws, they'd have a very similar TS%.

[payitforward]

Here's the best way to compare two players:

1. figure out which one you want to be better
2. find the things that guy is better at
3. declare those to be the most important things
4. make it clear that what the other guy does well is "stat-padding."

Job done.

[payitforward]

I disliked this trade. I continue to dislike the fact that we were willing to give a R1 pick (protected or not) to make it happen.

But, at this point, there is no comparison whatever between the seasons these two guys are having. Westbrook is outplaying Wall by a mile.

Wall is certainly scoring a lot more efficiently. For sure. But, look at the rest of the numbers, please.

An offensive board, a steal, & a turnover each have about the same value (negative in the case of a turnover, obviously). Combine those stats for the 2 players & Russ is ahead per 40 minutes.

A block, an assist, & a foul also have about the same value (negative in the case of a foul, obviously). Russ has a significant advantage.

Those numbers more than suffice to make up for Russ's less efficient scoring.

Then there's defensive rebounds -- Russ gets 2.6 defensive boards for every 1 that Wall gets.

Russ is having a better year by far than John.

Now... would I give a R1 pick in 2023 for the difference? Absolutely not! We are rebuilding (like it or not). That 2023 pick will be in the first draft after Wall/Westbrook's enormous salaries are off the books. It was too valuable to give up.

[TGW]

Here's the best way to compare two players:

1. figure out which one you want to be better
2. find the things that guy is better at
3. declare those to be the most important things
4. make it clear that what the other guy does well is "stat-padding."

Job done.

At this point in their careers, they're about the same impact wise on the court. I actually wouldn't care at all about the trade but that pick bothers me. Why give up a pick for a 32 year old player on the decline who's paid 40mil for the next 3 seasons. I've noticed that people are trying to downplay that pick, but a good GM does not give up any sort of draft capital in an exchange of two 30 year old players on their downside. Complete stupidity by a weak front office.

[payitforward]

Here's the best way to compare two players:

1. figure out which one you want to be better
2. find the things that guy is better at
3. declare those to be the most important things
4. make it clear that what the other guy does well is "stat-padding."

Job done.

At this point in their careers, they're about the same impact wise on the court. I actually wouldn't care at all about the trade but that pick bothers me. Why give up a pick for a 32 year old player on the decline who's paid 40mil for the next 3 seasons. I've noticed that people are trying to downplay that pick, but a good GM does not give up any sort of draft capital in an exchange of two 30 year old players on their downside. Complete stupidity by a weak front office.

Well... read my last post: I obviously agree about the pick. I wouldn't have made the trade.

But, Russ is outplaying John all the same!

I continue to think the trade was the work of Ted Leonsis. Then again... how would I know?

[verbal8]

Here's the best way to compare two players:

1. figure out which one you want to be better
2. find the things that guy is better at
3. declare those to be the most important things
4. make it clear that what the other guy does well is "stat-padding."

Job done.

At this point in their careers, they're about the same impact wise on the court. I actually wouldn't care at all about the trade but that pick bothers me. Why give up a pick for a 32 year old player on the decline who's paid 40mil for the next 3 seasons. I've noticed that people are trying to downplay that pick, but a good GM does not give up any sort of draft capital in an exchange of two 30 year old players on their downside. Complete stupidity by a weak front office.

I think the pick reflects a combination of Wall's injury history and Westbrook's intangibles. Not sure it is a good reason, but I think that was likely the thought pattern behind it.

[NatP4]

We jumped the gun on evaluating this trade. Wall has been awful this year and is now due for another major knee surgery. His career could be in jeopardy.

Westbrook has been pretty good for a couple months now. It’s possible that his contract is becoming moveable which will certainly not be the case for that Wall contract at any point.

[Mizerooskie]

We jumped the gun on evaluating this trade. Wall has been awful this year and is now due for another major knee surgery. His career could be in jeopardy.

Westbrook has been pretty good for a couple months now. It’s possible that his contract is becoming moveable which will certainly not be the case for that Wall contract at any point.

Yep. My progression on the trade was something like:

Initial reaction: Yes! We got rid of the worst contract in the league by far! And got a significantly better (and healthier) player. The 1st is too far out to worry about, and we rarely make an impact with those anyway.

During the Russ-is-banged-up/recovering-from-injury portion of the season: ****. Now we've got the worse, and older player, and somehow his contract is looking worse than Wall's

Recently, particular with the knee scope news: Phew. Russ has looked like the significantly better player for a bit now, and may even be moveable for value. Wall's contract looks horrendous again.

[gambitx777]

Yeah russ was playing himself back into shape and wall just looks fresh.

The whole trade was always going to come down to could they get a full season of health wall. They did not. Because you could see something was going wrong the last few weeks. Because now wall is basically untradable for at least a year if not two.

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[FAH1223]

We jumped the gun on evaluating this trade. Wall has been awful this year and is now due for another major knee surgery. His career could be in jeopardy.

Westbrook has been pretty good for a couple months now. It’s possible that his contract is becoming moveable which will certainly not be the case for that Wall contract at any point.

Yep. My progression on the trade was something like:

Initial reaction: Yes! We got rid of the worst contract in the league by far! And got a significantly better (and healthier) player. The 1st is too far out to worry about, and we rarely make an impact with those anyway.

During the Russ-is-banged-up/recovering-from-injury portion of the season: ****. Now we've got the worse, and older player, and somehow his contract is looking worse than Wall's

Recently, particular with the knee scope news: Phew. Russ has looked like the significantly better player for a bit now, and may even be moveable for value. Wall's contract looks horrendous again.

Wall started the season off pretty good but his play has been meh as of late. Westbrook being more durable probably will play out better, I guess.

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[pcbothwel]

I wont pile on Wall as he is injured, but its getting more and more clear that we won this trade.
Russ previous 3 years (2 OKC + 1 Hou):
25 / 10 / 9.5 with 1.8 steals, 2:1 AST:TOV ratio, TS: 52%, FTr: 31%

Russ last 12 games:
25 / 9 / 11 with 1.8 steals, 2.5:1 AST:TOV ratio, TS: 53%, FTr: 37%

I know 12 games isnt a large sample size, but Russ is as good or better now than he has been over the last 3 years. In fact, If he was hitting his FT at even 75% then he would be as good as his post MVP year(2017-18)... A year in which he was ALL-NBA 2nd team.

[WallToWall]

Right now, because of Wall's injury, it is easy to say we got the better end of the deal. Hypothetical: if Westbrook gets injured, then we will not have the better end of the deal, as it would be us shipping out a 1st round pick for nothing. Let's hope injuries don't happen.

[nate33]

Right now, because of Wall's injury, it is easy to say we got the better end of the deal. Hypothetical: if Westbrook gets injured, then we will not have the better end of the deal, as it would be us shipping out a 1st round pick for nothing. Let's hope injuries don't happen.

Yes, but the point is, a Wall injury was foreseeable because he hasn't been healthy in 4 years.

Wall is currently injured and Westbrook isn't because, more often than not, Wall is usually injured and Westbrook usually isn't.

[pcbothwel]

Right now, because of Wall's injury, it is easy to say we got the better end of the deal. Hypothetical: if Westbrook gets injured, then we will not have the better end of the deal, as it would be us shipping out a 1st round pick for nothing. Let's hope injuries don't happen.

Yes, but the point is, a Wall injury was foreseeable because he hasn't been healthy in 4 years.

Wall is currently injured and Westbrook isn't because, more often than not, Wall is usually injured and Westbrook usually isn't.

Exactly. And again, my argument isnt that we won BECAUSE Wall is injured. Russ is better than Wall healthy. The injury just adds to it now.
Also, I dont think the beginning of the season was a fair comp. Russ had a recent quad injury and was playing in hard fought playoff games against the NBA champs 90 days before this season started. Wall had been a healthy scratch for 12 months before the season, so he was healthy and itching to get back. Even if Wall didnt get hurt, I wasnt confident that he would keep up the energy levels as the season went, especially on defense.

[payitforward]

Really sorry to hear that Wall is injured...

[gambitx777]

That's really at the end of the day why they traded him in the first place. They had no faith he wouldn't break down. Rehabing an injury when you have other issues on that part of the body is hard. Hes had bad knees then blew an achilles, so that other knee ate a lot of strain over the course of his recovery. It was a good but hard choice to move him when we did. You can argue if that first should have been a first should have been a second.

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[nate33]

Thread on the General Board full of Houston fans complaining about John Wall's selfishness and bad leadership.

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This reminds me of this tweet when wall missed a game back when they were teammates.

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Man, the Wizards have won that trade, and they got Westbrook 150 millions deal, Wall may be the better player, but no way Westbrook will allow this toxic atmosphere on his team.