NBA MVP Discussion '20-'21, Part 2 (Poll created 21 March '21)

[Baddy Chuck]

With all the talk of stats you'd think the difference from Jokic to Giannis was more than a couple assists and a couple less points.

I think Jokic has outplayed Giannis this season but this "blows him out of the water in terms of stats" stuff is pretty funny. By all accounts he's impacting games more than Giannis this season which would pass an eye test for me but some of these arguments are downright dumb.

[Baddy Chuck]

I mean, you can’t have a couple weeks of average games, then have a monster one and run to the rooftop to scream the name of your guy. The MVP is for a body of work, not an award for what you have done in the last 24 hours.

I mean on one hand you're preaching that the award is for an overall body of work and then on the other hand you're chastising game to game inconsistency. You kinda gotta pick one or the other. His overall body of work speaks for itself. If anything you're the one picking through it for the "24 hour" segments you can find to tear it apart.

[KGtabake]

Giannis has a strong case but the narrative is against him. I know that the award is for the current regular season only, but narrative pays a huge part in it.

Giannis has two things that are going against him. His game gets mitigated too easily in the playoffs and his team had two early exits.

This would be his 3rd consecutive MVP and people are not willing to put him in that realm of players. Since MVPs are used as a metric on how a player is viewed historically, every next MVP becomes harder to get relative to his competition.

Its wacky but it has some strange sense to it.

huh? giannis doesn't have a case to speak of at all. jokic blows him out of the water in terms of stats. in fact, giannis from last 2 years blows giannis from this year out, it's not even close. giannis just hasn't had an mvp level seasonso far, it happens. he just has to play better, that's all there is to it

What are you talking about?
Giannis is having a career high in assists.
He's having better numbers than last year in
-steals
-blocks
-FT percentage
-2pt percentage
-EFG%
-same 3pt percentage
-he's committing less fouls.

-2nd in PER
-7th in DRating
-6th in OWS
-3rd in DWS
-2nd in WS
-3rd in WS/48
-3rd in BPM
-8th in OBPM
-4th in DBPM
-2nd in VORP


He's the only player in the league who ranks close to the top20 in all 5 basic stats.
4th in PPG
6th in RPG
17th in APG
11th in BPG
25th in SPG
There's only one player in history who has managed to finish in the top20 of all 5 throughout a season. Do you know who?
Giannis 2 years ago.

"Giannis doesn't have a case at all".
Go have a look at the stats of past winners and tell us how many of them had far superior stats than these.

Jokic is better than everyone and he will win. Deservedly so.
If Jokic didn't have this kind of season, who do you think would have won?
Saying that Giannis doesn't have a case when he's posting 28/11/6/1.2/1.3 is stupid.
Ofc he's having an MVP caliber season.
It's just that Niko is having a historically unparalleled season.

Ofc Giannis in the conversation.
He never left actually.
Just because you are taking his numbers for granted doesn't mean that other players can do what he does on both ends on a stupidly consistent standard.

And yes, Marcus and our boys made him look bad in our 2 recent games.
Niko had a 14/7/7 game the other day and Harden shot 7/21. So what? It happens.

If you're about to post on a thread like this one, you should at least speak with facts.

That "not even close" thing on every topic, has destroyed this board lol


Anyways:

1. Jokic
2. Harden
3. Giannis
4. Lillard
5. Gobert

[Doctor MJ]

So, just forcing myself to make a list at the moment, my hypothetical ballot would be:

1. Nikola Jokic - Maybe just playing better than anyone else this season period, but after injuries to others, he's my clear guy for now.
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo - To me he's actually the other guy with a good case right now.
3. Rudy Gobert - Feels like there's some kind of agreement the basketball world has that he's only going to be considered for DPOY, but should be in the MVP discussion.
4. Kawhi Leonard - Very quietly still having a very, very good year.
5. Damian Lillard - Absolutely heroic what he's done in the clutch, but I'm afraid there's some luck to that.

Other guys:

Embiid & LeBron were on my list before injuries.

Harden - His negative impact to Houston pretty much DQs him for me this year, but I do understand why people are excited by what they see in Brooklyn.

[Dupp]

So, just forcing myself to make a list at the moment, my hypothetical ballot would be:

1. Nikola Jokic - Maybe just playing better than anyone else this season period, but after injuries to others, he's my clear guy for now.
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo - To me he's actually the other guy with a good case right now.
3. Rudy Gobert - Feels like there's some kind of agreement the basketball world has that he's only going to be considered for DPOY, but should be in the MVP discussion.
4. Kawhi Leonard - Very quietly still having a very, very good year.
5. Damian Lillard - Absolutely heroic what he's done in the clutch, but I'm afraid there's some luck to that.

Other guys:

Embiid & LeBron were on my list before injuries.

Harden - His negative impact to Houston pretty much DQs him for me this year, but I do understand why people are excited by what they see in Brooklyn.

I dont see how you can justify kawhi that high. Hes missed a tonne of games (played as many as lebron) and his level of play is not better than guys like lillard for example.

Re: Harden: Whatever your criteria if fine i guess. Feel like saying he cant be top 5 is extreme though. KDs been out most of the season. He probably tanked less games than kawhi missed and the games hes played for the nets has been so far above kawhis level of play.

[kuclas]

Embiid going through the motions. First game back. 24/8/2/3 in 28 min. KAT had a monster stat line 39/14/5 on second half of back to back nights. KAT SHOULD been in the discussion for mvp in the future. I just don’t understand why his play doesn’t lead to wins. And this is before Covid. KAT puts up monster stat lines. He’s like the Bradley Beal of big men. He doesn’t play great defense often like Beal.

KAT needs to go to the Clippers or something to be the 2nd or third option before Leonard and George.

[mediocrityrules]

Embiid going through the motions. First game back. 24/8/2/3 in 28 min. KAT had a monster stat line 39/14/5 on second half of back to back nights. KAT SHOULD been in the discussion for mvp in the future. I just don’t understand why his play doesn’t lead to wins. And this is before Covid. KAT puts up monster stat lines. He’s like the Bradley Beal of big men. He doesn’t play great defense often like Beal.

KAT needs to go to the Clippers or something to be the 2nd or third option before Leonard and George.

Or he's like the Andre Drummond of big men. Doesn't matter where he goes, he'll put up big, empty numbers.

[bearadonisdna]

, i dont even have jokic as the mvp of his own division. 7.5 games back.

[eathb_au]

Embiid going through the motions. First game back. 24/8/2/3 in 28 min. KAT had a monster stat line 39/14/5 on second half of back to back nights. KAT SHOULD been in the discussion for mvp in the future. I just don’t understand why his play doesn’t lead to wins. And this is before Covid. KAT puts up monster stat lines. He’s like the Bradley Beal of big men. He doesn’t play great defense often like Beal.

KAT needs to go to the Clippers or something to be the 2nd or third option before Leonard and George.

KAT and Jokic are players I wish could be on equal terms of other stars for narration purposes but are held back by their teams (neither have a second star as a teammate).

[Ballerhogger]

I think the top 3 finish will be
Jokic
Giannis
Harden

[Ballerhogger]

Embiid going through the motions. First game back. 24/8/2/3 in 28 min. KAT had a monster stat line 39/14/5 on second half of back to back nights. KAT SHOULD been in the discussion for mvp in the future. I just don’t understand why his play doesn’t lead to wins. And this is before Covid. KAT puts up monster stat lines. He’s like the Bradley Beal of big men. He doesn’t play great defense often like Beal.

KAT needs to go to the Clippers or something to be the 2nd or third option before Leonard and George.

I think he gets traded in off season

[Statlanta]

5. Damian Lillard - Absolutely heroic what he's done in the clutch, but I'm afraid there's some luck to that.

I'd argue it's not luck. He's an iron man compared to some of the top players like Kawhi, Chris Paul and Steph so he gets to play in more pressure situations(especially compared to Kawhi and Steph who have played on dominant winning teams that can afford to sit them in the 4th quarter).

[KGtabake]

Embiid going through the motions. First game back. 24/8/2/3 in 28 min. KAT had a monster stat line 39/14/5 on second half of back to back nights. KAT SHOULD been in the discussion for mvp in the future. I just don’t understand why his play doesn’t lead to wins. And this is before Covid. KAT puts up monster stat lines. He’s like the Bradley Beal of big men. He doesn’t play great defense often like Beal.

KAT needs to go to the Clippers or something to be the 2nd or third option before Leonard and George.

Beal is a shooting guard. You won't see any SG being the defensive anchor of any team and that's why SGs usually get a pass for bad defense (not saying that they should but it is what it is).
KAT is a center and bad defense for bigs is always highlighted. Jokic for example is not a bad defender. Never has been. He's not great tho and this has lead people saying that he's bad. Due to position.
KAT is significantly worse in D, mainly because there are numerous times in which he doesn't even seem to care.
This along with the fact that he's not the playmaker Jokic is and he's not setting up his teammates, makes the whole difference.
I agree that KAT has the most complete scoring game than any big currently. But he has to get a lot better before demanding a trade. He has made the playoffs only once and that's because Thibs and Butler were on the team.

My focus is on Embiid. I think he missed fewer games than expected. If he doesn't miss any other games and he plays like he used to before the injury, he's back in. No?
The team has the record, Jojo has the stats.

[kuclas]

Embiid going through the motions. First game back. 24/8/2/3 in 28 min. KAT had a monster stat line 39/14/5 on second half of back to back nights. KAT SHOULD been in the discussion for mvp in the future. I just don’t understand why his play doesn’t lead to wins. And this is before Covid. KAT puts up monster stat lines. He’s like the Bradley Beal of big men. He doesn’t play great defense often like Beal.

KAT needs to go to the Clippers or something to be the 2nd or third option before Leonard and George.

Beal is a shooting guard. You won't see any SG being the defensive anchor of any team and that's why SGs usually get a pass for bad defense (not saying that they should but it is what it is).
KAT is a center and bad defense for bigs is always highlighted. Jokic for example is not a bad defender. Never has been. He's not great tho and this has lead people saying that he's bad. Due to position.
KAT is significantly worse in D, mainly because there are numerous times in which he doesn't even seem to care.
This along with the fact that he's not the playmaker Jokic is and he's not setting up his teammates, makes the whole difference.
I agree that KAT has the most complete scoring game than any big currently. But he has to get a lot better before demanding a trade. He has made the playoffs only once and that's because Thibs and Butler were on the team.

My focus is on Embiid. I think he missed fewer games than expected. If he doesn't miss any other games and he plays like he used to before the injury, he's back in. No?
The team has the record, Jojo has the stats.

No chance for mvp. He’s not going to play back to backs for a while. He’s wearing a knee brace. If you watch his shots from outside. He didn’t have the same bounce elevating. Not that he needs to elevate much. Even point blank shots he should make. He didn’t have the lift. Didn’t shoot free throws well. He’s playing just to get 2nd team all nba at this point cause If he misses more games. Gobert will get second team.

Goal is to get him and the team healthy going into playoffs. I do think seeding is absolutely essential for sixers to advance deep in playoffs. They have zero chance against healthy nets if they got to win on the road 4 games. Sixers dominate at home when healthy. I give them a punchers 50 percent chance if they have home court.

[Janko035]

My focus is on Embiid. I think he missed fewer games than expected. If he doesn't miss any other games and he plays like he used to before the injury, he's back in. No?
The team has the record, Jojo has the stats.

One more missed game, and that's 25% of the season missed. Only once did an MVP miss more 20% (Bill Walton in 1978). As the poster above me said, he is very unlikely to play back-to-backs in the remainder of the season.

[NADALalot]

I agree, Embiid is doner than a dog's dinner.
As much as they don't want to, media will mostly vote Jokic.

[Jurassic_Park]

Updated mvp odds:

Jokic 1.71
Harden 6.50
Giannis 8.00
Embiid 9.00
Lebron 11.00
Lillard 15.00

[Janko035]

I investigated further, and voters have been even more strict historically than I thought. Only 3 more times (other than Walton) did an MVP miss more than 10% of the season, and the second highest is Giannis last year at 13.7% missed games!

[Oscar9992]

Giannis has a strong case but the narrative is against him. I know that the award is for the current regular season only, but narrative pays a huge part in it.

Giannis has two things that are going against him. His game gets mitigated too easily in the playoffs and his team had two early exits.

This would be his 3rd consecutive MVP and people are not willing to put him in that realm of players. Since MVPs are used as a metric on how a player is viewed historically, every next MVP becomes harder to get relative to his competition.

Its wacky but it has some strange sense to it.

huh? giannis doesn't have a case to speak of at all. jokic blows him out of the water in terms of stats. in fact, giannis from last 2 years blows giannis from this year out, it's not even close. giannis just hasn't had an mvp level seasonso far, it happens. he just has to play better, that's all there is to it

What are you talking about?
Giannis is having a career high in assists.
He's having better numbers than last year in
-steals
-blocks
-FT percentage
-2pt percentage
-EFG%
-same 3pt percentage
-he's committing less fouls.

-2nd in PER
-7th in DRating
-6th in OWS
-3rd in DWS
-2nd in WS
-3rd in WS/48
-3rd in BPM
-8th in OBPM
-4th in DBPM
-2nd in VORP


He's the only player in the league who ranks close to the top20 in all 5 basic stats.
4th in PPG
6th in RPG
17th in APG
11th in BPG
25th in SPG
There's only one player in history who has managed to finish in the top20 of all 5 throughout a season. Do you know who?
Giannis 2 years ago.

"Giannis doesn't have a case at all".
Go have a look at the stats of past winners and tell us how many of them had far superior stats than these.

Jokic is better than everyone and he will win. Deservedly so.
If Jokic didn't have this kind of season, who do you think would have won?
Saying that Giannis doesn't have a case when he's posting 28/11/6/1.2/1.3 is stupid.
Ofc he's having an MVP caliber season.
It's just that Niko is having a historically unparalleled season.

Ofc Giannis in the conversation.
He never left actually.
Just because you are taking his numbers for granted doesn't mean that other players can do what he does on both ends on a stupidly consistent standard.

And yes, Marcus and our boys made him look bad in our 2 recent games.
Niko had a 14/7/7 game the other day and Harden shot 7/21. So what? It happens.

If you're about to post on a thread like this one, you should at least speak with facts.

That "not even close" thing on every topic, has destroyed this board lol


Anyways:

1. Jokic
2. Harden
3. Giannis
4. Lillard
5. Gobert

Giannis is 3'rd in PER, not 2'nd.

[Ballerhogger]

So, just forcing myself to make a list at the moment, my hypothetical ballot would be:

1. Nikola Jokic - Maybe just playing better than anyone else this season period, but after injuries to others, he's my clear guy for now.
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo - To me he's actually the other guy with a good case right now.
3. Rudy Gobert - Feels like there's some kind of agreement the basketball world has that he's only going to be considered for DPOY, but should be in the MVP discussion.
4. Kawhi Leonard - Very quietly still having a very, very good year.
5. Damian Lillard - Absolutely heroic what he's done in the clutch, but I'm afraid there's some luck to that.

Other guys:

Embiid & LeBron were on my list before injuries.

Harden - His negative impact to Houston pretty much DQs him for me this year, but I do understand why people are excited by what they see in Brooklyn.

i think harden is top 3 and if you take him out nets line up they werent winning as much with kyrie alone . Kyrie cant carry a franchise for a good amount of time. He wont win but hes had better year than Gobert.