The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind

[HardenToSixers]

Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.

Embiid is the most impactful defensive player in the NBA with a skill level that translates well to the playoffs.

There is no single other player you would take when going on a playoff run for maximum defensive impact.

Yea Embiid is Hakeem on defense thats why the Sixers barely dropped off defensively with him out.

Btw Ben Simmons>Embiid defensively and he is a wing. True Sixers fans would probably agree but maybe not Embiid stans.

Watch basketball

[HardenToSixers]

Ya I disagree with most of this. Gobert is the center of Utah's defense and w/o him they would be at the lower end of the spectrum. Embiid is very good but he is helped by the fact that he has the "real" DPOY on his team in Simmons as well as Thybulle, who is very good himself. We got a great look at what Philly is with no Simmons and only Biid last year in the playoffs when Boston swept them-convincingly. If Biid didn't have 2 all defense level perimeter players around him, it'd be a different thing. He doesn't have the ability to switch onto guards as well as this is nothing to say about his health concerns compared to Gorbert or even Giannis

My point is that if Embiid had the same offensive responsibilities as Gobert (i.e set screens and roll to the basket) he would likely be a better defender. He is stronger, more athletic and has more of a mean streak.

The Sixers team last year was a trainwreck. Horford and Harris were playing out of position and the perimeter was porous with with players like Milton, Korkmaz etc that were both inexperienced and bad defenders. Against a perimeter oriented team and under these circumstances it is hard for a center to have much of an impact. The defensive schemes in the first couple of games that had Embiid drop back and allow open jumpers in the pnr didnt help either.

I disagree with him being a better defender at all. Him rolling to the basket has nothing to do his inability to switch to the perimeter and cover as much space.

My point is that having Simmons and Thybulle there allows them to cover up for his weaknesses. Gobert and Simmons have way more responsibility. They're not scoring as much as Embiid, but they still have shown way more ability to be the better defenders regardless.

There’s a multi year history of Embiid changing the complexion of the Sixers defense whenever he is on the floor regardless of cast. He is a defensive phenom. Any stupid small sample size stats you want to point to this year you can throw out the window. He also is athletic enough to not be a complete liability on the perimeter, especially with his lighter weight now, and is therefore more effective in the playoffs than Gobert

[Kurtz]

Philly played us 2x, and the Lakers without LeBron, I wouldn't look too deeply into what they did without Embiid, they lost when they played good teams and the defense was bad in those games. They are worse defensively over the course of the season when he's out of the game. We're not comparing Embiid to his own previous defensive standards, we're comparing him to Jokic, and if you're going by on/off then how is this even a discusssion? Opponents have a 115.1 ORTG when Jokic is on the court and 108.7 when he's off. Trying to minimize the gap between Embiid and Jokic on defense is really the only way anyone can say Jokic is better or more worthy of being MVP. They are both elite offensive players, one if also elite on defense. That is why this thread is full of people just discrediting defense, it's obvious.

The defensive difference for Embiid on/off is relatively miniscule this season, hardly worth mentioning. I agree that Embiid is clearly better defensively than Jokic, but you are attempting to minimize Jokic's offensive advantage by merely stating that they're both elite. Yes - they are both elite at getting baskets, but one guy is the greatest passing NBA center of all time and the other is averaging as many turnovers as assists. Jokic is far more valuable on offense.

Here's the thing, if you're using on/off like this, I don't understand where your argument is coming from that Jokic is far more valuable on offense, the Sixers have a 120.6 ORTG when Embiid is on the court and 108 when he's off. They are worse on defense without him even if it's small, they don't get better defensively when he's off the court like the Nuggets do when Jokic is off. You can't have it both ways, you can't use on/off like this to justify one position, even though on/off paints a completely different picture. The Sixers offense is ugly when Embiid is off the floor, he's valuable on that side of the floor in a different way. Regardless of what the on/off says, I don't think Embiid is as good of an offensive player as Jokic. No, but the gap is much closer there than the chasm that exists on defense, they aren't even in the same ballpark on defense.

I didn't claim that Embiid doesn't help Philly offensively - clearly he's huge for them on that end. Not as big as Jokic, but big. My point was about defense - Embiid has shifted his focus from defense to offense this year, and you can see it in the data.

So when we're talking defensive "chasm" - that just doesn't exist between the two this year. If Embiid played as well defensively as in the past - sure, but this year, while the gap is real, it's hardly a chasm. And as has been mentioned, Embiid has had the benefit of being surrounded by strong defenders and backed up by a strong defensive C, whereas Jokic had no defensive players around him until the Gordon trade.

So indeed, we have Jokic, a superior overall offensive player, vs Embiid a superior defender. Which one is more valuable is subjective, although the modern game seems to value offense a lot more. Had they both played a similar amount of games, I'd have no issue with team record being the tiebreaker. But Embiid's missed games make this an easy call.

[Slim Charless]

My point is that if Embiid had the same offensive responsibilities as Gobert (i.e set screens and roll to the basket) he would likely be a better defender. He is stronger, more athletic and has more of a mean streak.

The Sixers team last year was a trainwreck. Horford and Harris were playing out of position and the perimeter was porous with with players like Milton, Korkmaz etc that were both inexperienced and bad defenders. Against a perimeter oriented team and under these circumstances it is hard for a center to have much of an impact. The defensive schemes in the first couple of games that had Embiid drop back and allow open jumpers in the pnr didnt help either.

I disagree with him being a better defender at all. Him rolling to the basket has nothing to do his inability to switch to the perimeter and cover as much space.

My point is that having Simmons and Thybulle there allows them to cover up for his weaknesses. Gobert and Simmons have way more responsibility. They're not scoring as much as Embiid, but they still have shown way more ability to be the better defenders regardless.

There’s a multi year history of Embiid changing the complexion of the Sixers defense whenever he is on the floor regardless of cast. He is a defensive phenom. Any stupid small sample size stats you want to point to this year you can throw out the window. He also is athletic enough to not be a complete liability on the perimeter, especially with his lighter weight now, and is therefore more effective in the playoffs than Gobert

He's not even the best defensive player on his own team. This isn't complicated. He's good for what he does but if the 6ers didn't have Simmons and Thybulle they'd be play in. Simmons is easily the DPOY. Easily. You'll get a better idea of all of this when you see him switch from Kyrie to Harden to KD seamlessly in the playoffs and strap them up-like he did Dame and Luka among others this season.

[VDT]

Ya I disagree with most of this. Gobert is the center of Utah's defense and w/o him they would be at the lower end of the spectrum. Embiid is very good but he is helped by the fact that he has the "real" DPOY on his team in Simmons as well as Thybulle, who is very good himself. We got a great look at what Philly is with no Simmons and only Biid last year in the playoffs when Boston swept them-convincingly. If Biid didn't have 2 all defense level perimeter players around him, it'd be a different thing. He doesn't have the ability to switch onto guards as well as this is nothing to say about his health concerns compared to Gorbert or even Giannis

My point is that if Embiid had the same offensive responsibilities as Gobert (i.e set screens and roll to the basket) he would likely be a better defender. He is stronger, more athletic and has more of a mean streak.

The Sixers team last year was a trainwreck. Horford and Harris were playing out of position and the perimeter was porous with with players like Milton, Korkmaz etc that were both inexperienced and bad defenders. Against a perimeter oriented team and under these circumstances it is hard for a center to have much of an impact. The defensive schemes in the first couple of games that had Embiid drop back and allow open jumpers in the pnr didnt help either.

I disagree with him being a better defender at all. Him rolling to the basket has nothing to do his inability to switch to the perimeter and cover as much space.

My point is that having Simmons and Thybulle there allows them to cover up for his weaknesses. Gobert and Simmons have way more responsibility. They're not scoring as much as Embiid, but they still have shown way more ability to be the better defenders regardless.

The rolling to the basket refers to Gobert. If that's all Embiid had to do offensively and he could spend all his energy and fouls on the defensive end he would be seen as better defender than Gobert. Unfortunately, if you are your team's first option offensively you cant afford to go all out on the defensive end.

[HardenToSixers]

I disagree with him being a better defender at all. Him rolling to the basket has nothing to do his inability to switch to the perimeter and cover as much space.

My point is that having Simmons and Thybulle there allows them to cover up for his weaknesses. Gobert and Simmons have way more responsibility. They're not scoring as much as Embiid, but they still have shown way more ability to be the better defenders regardless.

There’s a multi year history of Embiid changing the complexion of the Sixers defense whenever he is on the floor regardless of cast. He is a defensive phenom. Any stupid small sample size stats you want to point to this year you can throw out the window. He also is athletic enough to not be a complete liability on the perimeter, especially with his lighter weight now, and is therefore more effective in the playoffs than Gobert

He's not even the best defensive player on his own team. This isn't complicated. He's good for what he does but if the 6ers didn't have Simmons and Thybulle they'd be play in. Simmons is easily the DPOY. Easily. You'll get a better idea of all of this when you see him switch from Kyrie to Harden to KD seamlessly in the playoffs and strap them up-like he did Dame and Luka among others this season.

This isn’t complicated. If you look at defenses with and without Embiid since he was drafted he can make a nothing defense into a very good defense. Simmons is no doubt a fantastic defensive player and I will be very happy to have him on my team for the postseason for the very reason you said.

Embiid is still a better defensive talent because of the importance of the center position in defensive scheme and how good he is at protecting the rim with great mobility.

If you want to argue that Simmons is a better perimeter defender than Embiid is as a defender at the 5 relative to their own positions then I think that’s definitely fair but the defensive anchor at the 5 affects the game much more in my opinion.

[VDT]

Volume Jokic is actually slightly higher but Embiid gets WAY more free throw calls.
Heath aside, we know Jokic is a playoff performer, and Embiid's efficiency and numbers drop like a tank in the playoffs, if that means something.
Reg: 24.8/11.4/3.1; 48.6/32.7/80.3 shooting
Playoffs: 22.3/11.5/2.9; 43.7/28.6/78.6 shooting

Embiid is averaging 3.5 ppg more than Jokic this year. The difference is even higher per 36. Embiid scored 28.7 ppg per 36 in his rookie season, a number that Jokic has never reached. Right now Embiid scores 33.2 ppg per 36.

Embiid's efficiency and scoring are down in the playoffs, but he only had one healthy postseason and that was just 4 games. His rookie playoffs he had to play with a mask and the second year he had knee issues and was ill for 2-3 games against the Raptors.

Again, that is not due to higher volume but more free throws, so we need to see whether he can gets those calls or goes Harden mode in playoffs. Also a few points higher does not mean much as Jokic is also playing the point role with >8 assists a game.
Without finding any exceptions, here are Jokic's stats in playoffs, and you can expect him to elevate his game in bigger moments. You rarely find players get 5ppg higher with higher efficiency in the playoffs, even for superstars.
Reg: 18.1/9.7/5.9; 53.2/35/83.1 shooting
Playoffs: 24.7/11.2/6.9; 51.3/41.6/84.1 shooting with 33 games played

Fts is volume, i am not sure what you mean there.

Jokic playoff sample size is very small, just two years. Also you are comparing apples to oranges, as the regular season and postseason stats are for different years.

[Slim Charless]

There’s a multi year history of Embiid changing the complexion of the Sixers defense whenever he is on the floor regardless of cast. He is a defensive phenom. Any stupid small sample size stats you want to point to this year you can throw out the window. He also is athletic enough to not be a complete liability on the perimeter, especially with his lighter weight now, and is therefore more effective in the playoffs than Gobert

He's not even the best defensive player on his own team. This isn't complicated. He's good for what he does but if the 6ers didn't have Simmons and Thybulle they'd be play in. Simmons is easily the DPOY. Easily. You'll get a better idea of all of this when you see him switch from Kyrie to Harden to KD seamlessly in the playoffs and strap them up-like he did Dame and Luka among others this season.

This isn’t complicated. If you look at defenses with and without Embiid since he was drafted he can make a nothing defense into a very good defense. Simmons is no doubt a fantastic defensive player and I will be very happy to have him on my team for the postseason for the very reason you said.

Embiid is still a better defensive talent because of the importance of the center position in defensive scheme and how good he is at protecting the rim with great mobility.

If you want to argue that Simmons is a better perimeter defender than Embiid is as a defender at the 5 relative to their own positions then I think that’s definitely fair but the defensive anchor at the 5 affects the game much more in my opinion.

Maybe 20 years ago. Nowadays with all the switching and shooting that goes on a player like BS or even MT offer more uses for coaches then bigs. I assume you're a sixers fan so you've heard your own coach push for Simmons to get the DPOY. If he's a switching big that can cover guards well, it's a different story. Giannis and Gobert can for example.

Embiid is a traditional big with range. It's why he's the only big that Shaq doesn't **** on-he plays in a way that Shaq recognizes. He's great and maybe can still work his way above Joker for mvp but he's far from the best defensive player in the league.

[HardenToSixers]

He's not even the best defensive player on his own team. This isn't complicated. He's good for what he does but if the 6ers didn't have Simmons and Thybulle they'd be play in. Simmons is easily the DPOY. Easily. You'll get a better idea of all of this when you see him switch from Kyrie to Harden to KD seamlessly in the playoffs and strap them up-like he did Dame and Luka among others this season.

This isn’t complicated. If you look at defenses with and without Embiid since he was drafted he can make a nothing defense into a very good defense. Simmons is no doubt a fantastic defensive player and I will be very happy to have him on my team for the postseason for the very reason you said.

Embiid is still a better defensive talent because of the importance of the center position in defensive scheme and how good he is at protecting the rim with great mobility.

If you want to argue that Simmons is a better perimeter defender than Embiid is as a defender at the 5 relative to their own positions then I think that’s definitely fair but the defensive anchor at the 5 affects the game much more in my opinion.

Maybe 20 years ago. Nowadays with all the switching and shooting that goes on a player like BS or even MT offer more uses for coaches then bigs. I assume you're a sixers fan so you've heard your own coach push for Simmons to get the DPOY. If he's a switching big that can cover guards well, it's a different story. Giannis and Gobert can for example.

Embiid is a traditional big with range. It's why he's the only big that Shaq doesn't **** on-he plays in a way that Shaq recognizes. He's great and maybe can still work his way above Joker for mvp but he's far from the best defensive player in the league.

I disagree. The center is clearly immensely important on defense. Rim protection value will never go anywhere. Case in point Gobert.

Just need to be able to not be a liability when you are switched onto now.

[Slim Charless]

My point is that if Embiid had the same offensive responsibilities as Gobert (i.e set screens and roll to the basket) he would likely be a better defender. He is stronger, more athletic and has more of a mean streak.

The Sixers team last year was a trainwreck. Horford and Harris were playing out of position and the perimeter was porous with with players like Milton, Korkmaz etc that were both inexperienced and bad defenders. Against a perimeter oriented team and under these circumstances it is hard for a center to have much of an impact. The defensive schemes in the first couple of games that had Embiid drop back and allow open jumpers in the pnr didnt help either.

I disagree with him being a better defender at all. Him rolling to the basket has nothing to do his inability to switch to the perimeter and cover as much space.

My point is that having Simmons and Thybulle there allows them to cover up for his weaknesses. Gobert and Simmons have way more responsibility. They're not scoring as much as Embiid, but they still have shown way more ability to be the better defenders regardless.

The rolling to the basket refers to Gobert. If that's all Embiid had to do offensively and he could spend all his energy and fouls on the defensive end he would be seen as better defender than Gobert. Unfortunately, if you are your team's first option offensively you cant afford to go all out on the defensive end.

Tell that to Michael Jordan, Giannis, Minnesota era KG, Miami era Lebron, and Kobe (RIP).


Edit: and Toronto era Kawhi.

[VDT]

I disagree with him being a better defender at all. Him rolling to the basket has nothing to do his inability to switch to the perimeter and cover as much space.

My point is that having Simmons and Thybulle there allows them to cover up for his weaknesses. Gobert and Simmons have way more responsibility. They're not scoring as much as Embiid, but they still have shown way more ability to be the better defenders regardless.

The rolling to the basket refers to Gobert. If that's all Embiid had to do offensively and he could spend all his energy and fouls on the defensive end he would be seen as better defender than Gobert. Unfortunately, if you are your team's first option offensively you cant afford to go all out on the defensive end.

Tell that to Michael Jordan, Giannis, Minnesota era KG, Miami era Lebron, and Kobe (RIP).


Edit: and Toronto era Kawhi.

The only guy on this list that won a Dpoy while carrying large offensive load is Jordan. And it is more taxing for big men to play defense nowadays that they have to switch a lot, plus Jordan had obviously a better motor than Embiid.A better example would be Hakeem but again the job on the defensive end of big men at the time was easier than now. Moreover, all these guys that you mentioned would play much better defense if they didnt have to score much, which is my point.

[NZB2323]

Embiid is the most impactful defensive player in the NBA with a skill level that translates well to the playoffs.

There is no single other player you would take when going on a playoff run for maximum defensive impact.

Yea Embiid is Hakeem on defense thats why the Sixers barely dropped off defensively with him out.

Btw Ben Simmons>Embiid defensively and he is a wing. True Sixers fans would probably agree but maybe not Embiid stans.

Watch basketball

People who have watched the 76ers this year have seen Ben Simmons successfully defend Damian Lillard and Lebron James.

[art_tatum]

For the sake of basketball スタイル, give it to jokic.

[Misteclipse]

Between Embiid and Jokic, I give the edge to Embiid, the gap between them defensively is much bigger than the gap on offense.

Nope. The offensive gap is much larger. What defensive advantages does Embiid have over Jokic aside from rim protection? Neither can defend in space.

On offense, Jokic's playmaking and passing blows Embiid out of the water. Embiid's much higher FTr is a plus but how is that going to hold up in the playoffs when refs swallow the whistle?

You do realize the Nuggets are dead last in the NBA in FG% given up in the paint with Jokic being among the worst in the league in that category right? There's a reason Philadelphia has the #2 defense in the league. Jokic is a complete sieve in the paint who doesn't care nor has the talent to stop anyone from doing whatever they want with him in the paint. Defense is quite obviously much more important. An NBA team hasn't won a ring with a non top 10 defense in 20 years since the 01 Lakers and obviously Murray isn't a quarter of the player Kobe is. Hell the vast majority of the last 20 champions all had top 5 defenses.

Embiid is clearly the superior player. Anchoring his defense while still being a more efficient scorer. It's definitely a relief to not have to watch my center give 0 effort defensively every night. Bad defense doesn't win championships.

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[Misteclipse]

Nope. The offensive gap is much larger. What defensive advantages does Embiid have over Jokic aside from rim protection? Neither can defend in space.

On offense, Jokic's playmaking and passing blows Embiid out of the water. Embiid's much higher FTr is a plus but how is that going to hold up in the playoffs when refs swallow the whistle?

Embiid is most likely going to be a top 5 finalist for defensive player of the year, the gap on defense between them is huge, trying to spin it as anything else is just silly. It's like asking what defensive advantages does Gobert have over Tristan Thompson.

Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.

Pretty nonsensical statement. While it is true that 76ers are only slightly worse defensively with Embiid on the bench, it ignores the fact that it's because Dwight is still a very good defensive player. We still have the 5th best defense when Dwight is on the floor compared to the 2nd best when Embiid is on the floor. The ironic part is that the Nuggets actually have the 3rd best defense in the league right behind the Sixers when Jokic is on the bench. Unfortunately for them, it's the 4th worst defense when Jokic is on the court. All compounded by the fact Denver gives up the worst FG% in the paint in the entire league. It's a literal guaranteed bucket when Jokic is in the paint. He's horrendous defensively.

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[Veselyfan]

Nikola Jokic is currently leading the NBA in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, VORP.

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Everybody talking about Jokic bad defense, can you explain this ? He is also in TOP 10 in steals per game.

Read on Twitter

Jokic is the MVP, and its not even close.

[Misteclipse]

Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.

Embiid is the most impactful defensive player in the NBA with a skill level that translates well to the playoffs.

There is no single other player you would take when going on a playoff run for maximum defensive impact.

Yes, I agree that when he tries, like I assume he will in the playoffs, he's arguably the most impactful defender. But he hasn't been up to his standards defensively this season as he's concentrated more on offense.

How is having the 2nd best defense in the league not living up to his standards exactly?

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[Sgt Major]

"Embiid is the clearly the superior player"

[Misteclipse]

Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.

Embiid is the most impactful defensive player in the NBA with a skill level that translates well to the playoffs.

There is no single other player you would take when going on a playoff run for maximum defensive impact.

That's crazy talk. He's not even the best defender on his own team.

Being the best defender on his team and being the most impactful defensive player on his team are not the same thing. One on one Simmons can frustrate any offensive player in the league. But the Sixers as a team are actually better defensively when Ben is on the bench. Nobody impacts defense more than Centers, period. They have to lock down an entire area on the court, not one single player like perimeter defenders.

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[Misteclipse]

The only stopping Embiid from winning MVP is games played.

Other than that, he’s the unanimous MVP. There’s really no debate.

Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.

Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.

I wouldn't even call Jokic slightly more efficient. They have literally the exact same true shooting percentage currently, and that's with Embiid getting much more help defense and double teams thrown at him. Better shooter? Absolutely. Better scorer? I wouldn't say so.

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