Susan wrote:dice wrote:one instance regarding one athlete does not make it a pervasive issue. do YOU, for example, think that ryan pace is a reformed racist? i have no reason to believe that
by the way, dan orlovsky is not an nfl GM. he's a guy who keeps saying the word 'football' like it's a nervous tick
And listen, you were comparing Fields to Cam Newton. Justin has 4.46 40 speed but he was VERY much a pocket passer who killed teams with his arm. Cam had over 1k rushing yards and 20 rushing TDs in college, they're nothing alike. Outside of skin color, there's very little similar about them, Cam was a monster runner, Fields could become a good scrambler like Wilson/Mahomes/Watson but very much so looks to kill with his arm.
i said that i have HEARD them compared. can't remember the precise context though. probably athleticism. and newton has run the ball a lot less as a pro
Do I think Pace is a reformed racist? No. That's a bridge too far but race and sports are deeply intertwined and were very much so in 2016-17.
entirely different and broader argument than saying that there is significant and pervasive racism in the nfl GM ranks
-2016 the Niners come to Chicago and in a meaningless game in the last half of the season in which both teams are bottom feeders. --Colin Kaepernick was booed like freaking crazy at that game.
so. what.
this discussion isn't about the fans
-In scouting for the 2017 NFL Draft, Deshaun Watson was never once brought in for an interview by the Chicago Bears
i believe that was revealed to be false. but if true, hardly evidence of racism given that...
-They also interviewed Patrick Mahomes but chose not to draft him
as did countless other teams
-In his sitdown interview, MItch made reservations as "James McMahon"
bizarre anecdote completely unrelated to race
-We trade UP from 3 to 2 to snag Mitchell Trubisky, who had a much less impressive resume and tape than either Watson or Mahomes
-Houston and KC trade up to draft Watson and Mahomes
so...ryan pace is a racist. pretty weird coming from his biggest apologist on this board
-Mitch shows up to camp in his grandma's 1997 Toyota Camery and comes off as a kind of a dumb guy who never really figured out playing QB
and yet he was the top QB prospect according to most analysts. has nothing at all to do with the alleged racism of nfl GMs
know who comes off as even dumber? 2x super bowl champion eli manning
-Watson takes the NFL by storm in his rookie year, but does tear his ACL, the next 3 seasons are equally good if not better with last year being a complete sideshow mess to explain away the poor winning %. Who knows what to make of THIS offseason, he demanded a trade out and all of a sudden his reputation is attacked in such an aggressive manner. Feels like they're willing to destroy him completely in spite but that's a different story for a different thread
yes, that's the 'texans fans sexist for not believing the stories of dozens of women' thread...and by the way, watson is evidently not too bright either. nor was michael vick
-Mahomes is the greatest thing the NFL has ever seen at the QB position
that would still be tom brady, who was drafted late because...nfl GMs are racist against unathletic white QBs?
So the thing about MItch is, he's decently talented but CLEARLY not as talented as Watson or Mahomes. The grandma's car story was about as white, middle American thing I can think of. He used his name as a White, Super Bowl winning QB when he made his reservations.
again, weird thing to insert into this conversation. it's quite obvious that he was TRYING to ingratiate himself to the bears brass. quite lame to be sure (as was his dressing up as ditka on halloween), but has nothing at all to do with race
You can listen to his interviews and just tell that he's not insanely smart but he's a likeable enough guy. So to some people drafting this guy who's clearly not the brightest bulb, clearly not the most talented but in total is a basically likeable white guy instead of even considering Watson and passing on Mahomes (can't think of what's worse tbh) could absolutely feel as if they did it because he's white.
feel has nothing to do with it. unless there's a suspicious pattern of behavior. which there isn't
Remember, just a few months before the season ticket holders made it VERY clear what they thought of an outspoken black man who happened to play QB. Those season ticket holders I'm guessing are very much so white and upper middle class.
again, fans are not GMs
if you were going to use kaepernick to go after GMs for racism, you should have simply noted that none of them hired him after all the hoopla. at least that's PLAUSIBLY racist. even though there were economic interests and the reasonable "the distraction wouldn't be worth it" excuse
So here we are today, Pace has been lampooned by so many people in this city for this exact decision and Thursday was a righting of that wrong. Watson was a can't miss black prospect who couldn't even get an interview with the Bears, he fell to the teens. Justin Fields was thought of as the 2nd overall pick all year long but got passed up by a one year wonder white QB in Zach Wilson, Fields fell to the 11th pick in some unforsaken reason but this time the Bears were able to scoop him up.
he was also passed up for trey lance...who happens to be black
and i can't believe you're insinuating that ryan pace felt pressure to trade up for a black QB because of his trubisky mistake. surely bears management never nudged him to do so. and they're the only ones he has to please. who he's DESPERATE to please
Between, Mahomes/Watson being drafted in the 10-12 range, Lamar Jackson being called not a QB when he's been the freaking BEST QB drafted in that draft (despite going 32nd) and Fields stock dropping, it's been pretty clear that the NFL has been overvaluing white QBs in the past few drafts.
the argument that NFL GMs have suddenly drifted into racism (or backslid, or whatever) over the last few seasons is an even tougher one to make. the bigger picture needs to be looked at
so mahomes, watson and jackson go 10, 12 and 32 in consecutive drafts and it's evidence of racism against black QBs. gets brought up a fair amount. yet back in the day i don't recall any mention of racism against white QBs when brees and brady went 32 and 199, respectively, in consecutive drafts. i think that's called a double standard
i'm not gonna argue that there isn't still lingering race differential at the pro level when it comes to opportunity at the QB position. i'm sure that a race vs performance study would bear that out to some degree. i'd guess, for example, that the bust rate of white 1st round QB draft picks is higher than that of black. but to act like there's some clear cut problem in this area based simply on the recency bias of the watson/mahomes/jackson triumvarate (2 of whom are pretty unique to the position) is hard to swallow
but here's some low level evidence that there's NOT a racial bias against black QBs in the NFL:
there were 10 black starting nfl QBs out of 32 heading into last season (31%). black americans make up 13% of the total population. are white kids more likely to shy away from becoming NFL QBs? are black QBs innately that much more capable? do they work harder? they're certainly not being disproportionately encouraged to play QB at a young age. so what is about the black QB that NFL GMs just can't seem to get enough of?
