Non scorer OG has scored 20+ in 6 straight games

Steelo Green · Post #41 » by **Steelo Green** » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:45 pm

Giving players a bigger role than they are capable of doesn’t mean they learn anything. It can skew their growth.

Growth is neither linear or equal, and talent is what determines how big a role a player should be given.

Raptors have been good with letting OG be OG and not trying to make him do more than he is capable of. When we had Kawhi, Pascal as a secondary option and his efficiency was all NBA, and since he left the increase role as the alpha and the efficiency has plummeted including an all time worst playoff performance.

This could be Og if you expect him to be your star. Just let him keep doing what he’s doing and not fit a square peg in a circular hole.

Harcore Fenton Mun · Post #42 » by **Harcore Fenton Mun** » Sat May 1, 2021 12:01 am

He's just bullying people now though. Like, he's doing this and it looks easy most nights.

It's not like he's being force fed, he's doing it in the flow of the game. He's just quiet and efficient, like some other guy in the league who might have played on our team.

Even if you compare him to Simmons, do you trade OG's offence and threes for five more assists? Maybe today, but not going forward when you realize OG's younger.

Indeed · Post #43 » by **Indeed** » Sat May 1, 2021 12:27 am

antonaki1 wrote:O.K i guess we're talking about slightly different things. Flynn has created some really nice pic n rolls and set up a lot of shooters after driving the paint and his assist to turnover ratio has been excellent considering he's a rookie.

But he did almost takeover a game recently when he pored in 15 in just the fourth quarter in a tightly contested game against the Hawks and you don't do that with the game on the line if you don't have the ability to create your own shot. He had some really nice pullup jumpers in the paint as well as drives to the rim. Maybe he just needs to do it more consistently but he is a rookie and has a ton of growth ahead of him.

Against Atlanta on Apr 13? 3 assists on that game?
I re-watched the 4th quarter, and I supposed you only remember the good thing, but you probably missed some of his drives, which we got the ball back without giving him turnover. I don't see them being great shot nor shown his ability to create. It was mainly transition open 3, or a heavily contested pull up 3 (desperate shots). Nothing showed he can create separation, except against Huerter who is not known to be a good defender (don't think he is even at average).

Spoiler:

Yeezus_ · Post #44 » by **Yeezus_** » Sat May 1, 2021 1:40 pm

Steelo Green wrote:Giving players a bigger role than they are capable of doesn’t mean they learn anything. It can skew their growth.

Growth is neither linear or equal, and talent is what determines how big a role a player should be given.

Raptors have been good with letting OG be OG and not trying to make him do more than he is capable of. When we had Kawhi, Pascal as a secondary option and his efficiency was all NBA, and since he left the increase role as the alpha and the efficiency has plummeted including an all time worst playoff performance.

This could be Og if you expect him to be your star. Just let him keep doing what he’s doing and not fit a square peg in a circular hole.

Naturally, your best players will be taking the most shots. Especially if other players are passive.

Post #45 » by **HiJiNX** » Sat May 1, 2021 2:56 pm

Indeed wrote:
antonaki1 wrote:O.K i guess we're talking about slightly different things. Flynn has created some really nice pic n rolls and set up a lot of shooters after driving the paint and his assist to turnover ratio has been excellent considering he's a rookie.

But he did almost takeover a game recently when he pored in 15 in just the fourth quarter in a tightly contested game against the Hawks and you don't do that with the game on the line if you don't have the ability to create your own shot. He had some really nice pullup jumpers in the paint as well as drives to the rim. Maybe he just needs to do it more consistently but he is a rookie and has a ton of growth ahead of him.

Against Atlanta on Apr 13? 3 assists on that game?
I re-watched the 4th quarter, and I supposed you only remember the good thing, but you probably missed some of his drives, which we got the ball back without giving him turnover. I don't see them being great shot nor shown his ability to create. It was mainly transition open 3, or a heavily contested pull up 3 (desperate shots). Nothing showed he can create separation, except against Huerter who is not known to be a good defender (don't think he is even at average).

Spoiler:
4th quarter
- 6:25 Double screen switched to Capela and made an wide open 3
- 4:40 Switched to Huerter and take an open 3, missed
- 3:10 Tried to drive against Goodwind, but Huerter from the top reached the ball and almost got the steal. Flynn regain possession, and pass it to Birch for a semi-open 3.
- 2:10 Drive pass Huerter and got to the rim, missed with Huerter long arm contesting
- 1:37 Transition spot up open 3 by Flynn, made
- 1: 15 Transition spot up wide open 3 by Flynn, made
- 0:52 Tried to drive pass Huerter, but couldn't and with Capeta cutting off, pass off to Boucher and Boucher took a side step contested 3, missed
- 0:35 Inbound to Boucher and got the ball back then took a one step pull up contested 3, made
- 0:21 Transition and took a one pump fake contested 3, made
- 0:07 Catch and shoot 3, missed

No offence, but if you can’t see Flynn is great for creating for himself and others then I don’t know what to say. Based on what you wrote it appears your expectation should be that he should have a 100% shot creation rate or something haha.

Flynn got stifled by some aggressive traps by a good Denver team. He’s a rookie. That stuff happens. Hell, Kawhi got trapped to death in last year’s playoffs and PG13% couldn’t do enough to offset the ball pressure on Kawhi and they got eliminated, does that mean Kawhi sucks at creating? Or how bout the time last season we held Dame to 9 pts with aggressive trapping—does he suck at creating too? Flynn hadn’t seen NBA traps before and like every player who first sees NBA double teams, he struggled. He will be better and more prepared for that D the more he sees it. Gotta think long term here.

Flynn is our only three level scorer and a guy who has shown some extremely positive flashes over the past month. If you’re not seeing that I don’t know what to tell you.

bboyskinnylegs · Post #46 » by **bboyskinnylegs** » Sat May 1, 2021 3:05 pm

IMO longterm OG is best suited for the type of role Pascal had during our championship run (dependable, efficient offense, but not the focal point), and with his shooting ability and truly elite defense, he may even be able to play that role even better. I think if you take it to the extreme and try to maximize his usage like we have with Pascal and try to make him an ISO player, you'll see similar suboptimal results.

pingpongrac · Post #47 » by **pingpongrac** » Sat May 1, 2021 5:12 pm

bboyskinnylegs wrote:IMO longterm OG is best suited for the type of role Pascal had during our championship run (dependable, efficient offense, but not the focal point), and with his shooting ability and truly elite defense, he may even be able to play that role even better. I think if you take it to the extreme and try to maximize his usage like we have with Pascal and try to make him an ISO player, you'll see similar suboptimal results.

Mostly agree. What we've seen post-ASB/COVID though is an expanded role for OG that has seen his PPG increase by 25% and APG increase by 75% while maintaining his 61 TS% and keeping his TOV below 2 per game.

Pre-ASB: 33.4 MPG, 13.8 PPG (.607 TS%), 5.7 REB, 1.6 AST, 1.6 TOV
Post-ASB: 32.8 MPG, 18.3 PPG (.609 TS%), 5.3 REB, 2.7 AST, 1.9 TOV

While we did see the same general improvements from Siakam from the start of 2018/19 to the end of the Championship run, I think OG is still capable of a bigger USG% increase. Still too early to decide whether or not he can eventually be thrust into a lead scoring option, but I like his potential even more than Siakam from 2018-2019.

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Indeed · Post #48 » by **Indeed** » Sat May 1, 2021 6:05 pm

HiJiNX wrote:
Indeed wrote:
antonaki1 wrote:O.K i guess we're talking about slightly different things. Flynn has created some really nice pic n rolls and set up a lot of shooters after driving the paint and his assist to turnover ratio has been excellent considering he's a rookie.

But he did almost takeover a game recently when he pored in 15 in just the fourth quarter in a tightly contested game against the Hawks and you don't do that with the game on the line if you don't have the ability to create your own shot. He had some really nice pullup jumpers in the paint as well as drives to the rim. Maybe he just needs to do it more consistently but he is a rookie and has a ton of growth ahead of him.

Against Atlanta on Apr 13? 3 assists on that game?
I re-watched the 4th quarter, and I supposed you only remember the good thing, but you probably missed some of his drives, which we got the ball back without giving him turnover. I don't see them being great shot nor shown his ability to create. It was mainly transition open 3, or a heavily contested pull up 3 (desperate shots). Nothing showed he can create separation, except against Huerter who is not known to be a good defender (don't think he is even at average).

Spoiler:
4th quarter
- 6:25 Double screen switched to Capela and made an wide open 3
- 4:40 Switched to Huerter and take an open 3, missed
- 3:10 Tried to drive against Goodwind, but Huerter from the top reached the ball and almost got the steal. Flynn regain possession, and pass it to Birch for a semi-open 3.
- 2:10 Drive pass Huerter and got to the rim, missed with Huerter long arm contesting
- 1:37 Transition spot up open 3 by Flynn, made
- 1: 15 Transition spot up wide open 3 by Flynn, made
- 0:52 Tried to drive pass Huerter, but couldn't and with Capeta cutting off, pass off to Boucher and Boucher took a side step contested 3, missed
- 0:35 Inbound to Boucher and got the ball back then took a one step pull up contested 3, made
- 0:21 Transition and took a one pump fake contested 3, made
- 0:07 Catch and shoot 3, missed

No offence, but if you can’t see Flynn is great for creating for himself and others then I don’t know what to say. Based on what you wrote it appears your expectation should be that he should have a 100% shot creation rate or something haha.

Flynn got stifled by some aggressive traps by a good Denver team. He’s a rookie. That stuff happens. Hell, Kawhi got trapped to death in last year’s playoffs and PG13% couldn’t do enough to offset the ball pressure on Kawhi and they got eliminated, does that mean Kawhi sucks at creating? Or how bout the time last season we held Dame to 9 pts with aggressive trapping—does he suck at creating too? Flynn hadn’t seen NBA traps before and like every player who first sees NBA double teams, he struggled. He will be better and more prepared for that D the more he sees it. Gotta think long term here.

Flynn is our only three level scorer and a guy who has shown some extremely positive flashes over the past month. If you’re not seeing that I don’t know what to tell you.

Did you actually watch the game? Denver didn't setup any trap. Even the announcer said "Flynn cannot get by Rivers" (the forth trunover) when he throws it away, and clearly on the 5th turnover, he can't get pass his man and throws it away. The 6th one was just a strip off his hand when standing still.
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=TOV&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022000948&PlayerID=1630201&RangeType=0&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612761&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game

Now assist (Brooklyn):
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=AST&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022000930&PlayerID=1630201&RangeType=0&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612761&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game
1) Initiate transition, pass it up, OG scored on transition
2) OG postup, dumps to OG, OG scores
3) Switch defender with Lowry and pass to Lowry, then Lowry drives hard to the basket and scores

Do not see playmaking on this game (maybe the person did not make the field goal, but all the assists are passive)

Now assist (Denver):
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=AST&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022000948&PlayerID=1630201&RangeType=0&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612761&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game
1) PnR with Birch, pass to Birch for a wide open 2 dribbles dunk
2) Cross the court, pass to Lowry way behind the line for a semi-contested 3, made it
3) Transition Flynn pass to Bembry under the basket in a 2 on 1 scenario, made it
4) Transition Flynn crossed the court, pass to trailing OG who side step 3 defenders for a layup

The first setup PnR would be a playmaking, a wide open easy shot for Birch. Outside of that, it just pass to the player to do the hard work. However, nothing created after that.

The last 2 games are against above 500 teams. The only teams I see Flynn excel are those sub 500 or teams without being full strength. For example, Cleveland which is more a G-League team, and Flynn can perform very. Outside of that, perhaps you have to show me more evidence than giving him excuses.

Ackshun · Post #49 » by **Ackshun** » Sat May 1, 2021 6:09 pm

Steelo Green wrote:Giving players a bigger role than they are capable of doesn’t mean they learn anything. It can skew their growth.

Growth is neither linear or equal, and talent is what determines how big a role a player should be given.

Raptors have been good with letting OG be OG and not trying to make him do more than he is capable of. When we had Kawhi, Pascal as a secondary option and his efficiency was all NBA, and since he left the increase role as the alpha and the efficiency has plummeted including an all time worst playoff performance.

This could be Og if you expect him to be your star. Just let him keep doing what he’s doing and not fit a square peg in a circular hole.

It's a good point but does it kinda assume that all players are equal? Like how do we know OG wouldn't break out as an MVP candidate just because Pascal isn't the answer? Look back to McGrady. He left as a second option to Vince and clearly proved his worth as a #1.

Tough to call. I agree that we should let nature run its course though. When and if OG is ready to be a number one, it will be apparent rather than just forcing it. Which is what we did with Pascal.

Steelo Green · Post #50 » by **Steelo Green** » Sat May 1, 2021 10:34 pm

Ackshun wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Giving players a bigger role than they are capable of doesn’t mean they learn anything. It can skew their growth.

Growth is neither linear or equal, and talent is what determines how big a role a player should be given.

Raptors have been good with letting OG be OG and not trying to make him do more than he is capable of. When we had Kawhi, Pascal as a secondary option and his efficiency was all NBA, and since he left the increase role as the alpha and the efficiency has plummeted including an all time worst playoff performance.

This could be Og if you expect him to be your star. Just let him keep doing what he’s doing and not fit a square peg in a circular hole.

It's a good point but does it kinda assume that all players are equal? Like how do we know OG wouldn't break out as an MVP candidate just because Pascal isn't the answer? Look back to McGrady. He left as a second option to Vince and clearly proved his worth as a #1.

Tough to call. I agree that we should let nature run its course though. When and if OG is ready to be a number one, it will be apparent rather than just forcing it. Which is what we did with Pascal.

For me as much as I love OG I don’t see a star player.

It has to do with skill and talent level, not my like/dislike. Could I be wrong? Of course. He’s easily my most untouchable player and he fits the rebuild timeline way better than the in prime Fred and Pascal.

Hope for the best for sure, he’s exceeded my expectations but 20 points per game as the primary guy versus defenses focused on you is a large disparity.

I think OG is a number 3 at best. I can’t see him being a 1-2 option.

Ackshun · Post #51 » by **Ackshun** » Sun May 2, 2021 12:41 am

Steelo Green wrote:
Ackshun wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Giving players a bigger role than they are capable of doesn’t mean they learn anything. It can skew their growth.

Growth is neither linear or equal, and talent is what determines how big a role a player should be given.

Raptors have been good with letting OG be OG and not trying to make him do more than he is capable of. When we had Kawhi, Pascal as a secondary option and his efficiency was all NBA, and since he left the increase role as the alpha and the efficiency has plummeted including an all time worst playoff performance.

This could be Og if you expect him to be your star. Just let him keep doing what he’s doing and not fit a square peg in a circular hole.

It's a good point but does it kinda assume that all players are equal? Like how do we know OG wouldn't break out as an MVP candidate just because Pascal isn't the answer? Look back to McGrady. He left as a second option to Vince and clearly proved his worth as a #1.

Tough to call. I agree that we should let nature run its course though. When and if OG is ready to be a number one, it will be apparent rather than just forcing it. Which is what we did with Pascal.

For me as much as I love OG I don’t see a star player.

It has to do with skill and talent level, not my like/dislike. Could I be wrong? Of course. He’s easily my most untouchable player and he fits the rebuild timeline way better than the in prime Fred and Pascal.

Hope for the best for sure, he’s exceeded my expectations but 20 points per game as the primary guy versus defenses focused on you is a large disparity.

I think OG is a number 3 at best. I can’t see him being a 1-2 option.

Yeah he is 3 seasons in (not counting our ship year), so I'm with you on the expectations front. I expected a bit more, previously at least . He was touted as a defensive stud in the draft, but offensively raw.

But he has surpassed my 2021 expectations as well. He will need to add a ton of stuff to his offensive arsenal but I don't think it's a lack of talent. Some of it is timing (rookie year leash, Kawhi l/injury year, weird covid season last year) and then this year with FVV and Pascal shouldering the offensive load. But he seems to challenge himself. I would certainly rather watch him take more shots that Pascal at this point.

Being a number 1 option is reserved for the best of the best. He'll need to put in work if he wants to get there. I think it's possible.

WaltFrazier · Post #52 » by **WaltFrazier** » Sun May 2, 2021 4:43 am

His streak ended with 17 tonight. But he had his chances, missed a late 3 that would have helped

Chandan · Post #53 » by **Chandan** » Sun May 2, 2021 5:26 am

Here we go again

North_of_Border · Post #54 » by **North_of_Border** » Sun May 2, 2021 5:33 am

You guys would be Shocked to see the comparison of OG with a young Kawhi Leonard.

Kawhi was also a defensive stud prospect, with a raw offensive game. He was picked 15 overall so both are out of the lottery. Kawhi was suppose to be a D-first role player. Which is why Indianna traded him. Kawhi had VERY similar numbers as OG at his age and stage of career. Kawhi was not a star but had a slow transition by imroving every year. Which is exactly what OG has been doing

Kawhi didnt take take the next step in his career until year 5...... OG is showing glimpses that he is just about to take that next step near the end of season 4.

These two a physically the same. Play the same style of game. Have the same strengths and talent. Hell, they even have the same personality, not that that matters much

........... can you see it happening?

HeadtopChunes · Post #55 » by **HeadtopChunes** » Sun May 2, 2021 6:18 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:His streak ended with 17 tonight. But he had his chances, missed a late 3 that would have helped

the nice thing is he's prob at the point where he can give you ~15points and a couple assists even on an off night

JonasVFTW · Post #56 » by **JonasVFTW** » Sun May 2, 2021 6:21 pm

OG >> Pascal

Bad it’s not really even close.

kj_ · Post #57 » by **kj_** » Sun May 2, 2021 6:24 pm

North_of_Border wrote:You guys would be Shocked to see the comparison of OG with a young Kawhi Leonard.

Kawhi was also a defensive stud prospect, with a raw offensive game. He was picked 15 overall so both are out of the lottery. Kawhi was suppose to be a D-first role player. Which is why Indianna traded him. Kawhi had VERY similar numbers as OG at his age and stage of career. Kawhi was not a star but had a slow transition by imroving every year. Which is exactly what OG has been doing

Kawhi didnt take take the next step in his career until year 5...... OG is showing glimpses that he is just about to take that next step near the end of season 4.

These two a physically the same. Play the same style of game. Have the same strengths and talent. Hell, they even have the same personality, not that that matters much

........... can you see it happening?

Show me the pull up mid range jumper and I’m sold.

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Indeed · Post #58 » by **Indeed** » Sun May 2, 2021 7:29 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:His streak ended with 17 tonight. But he had his chances, missed a late 3 that would have helped

He was gassed.
I really like to see another lock down defender with 3 point shooting to be his backup, so that he can finish game strong. We need an upgrade over Stanley Johnson and RHJ for that role.

HeadtopChunes · Post #59 » by **HeadtopChunes** » Sun May 2, 2021 7:35 pm

Indeed wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:His streak ended with 17 tonight. But he had his chances, missed a late 3 that would have helped

He was gassed.
I really like to see another lock down defender with 3 point shooting to be his backup, so that he can finish game strong. We need an upgrade over Stanley Johnson and RHJ for that role.

not a lockdown defender but Otto Porter would be a solid target imo

Johnny Bball · Post #60 » by **Johnny Bball** » Sun May 2, 2021 10:30 pm

HeadtopChunes wrote:
Indeed wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:His streak ended with 17 tonight. But he had his chances, missed a late 3 that would have helped

He was gassed.
I really like to see another lock down defender with 3 point shooting to be his backup, so that he can finish game strong. We need an upgrade over Stanley Johnson and RHJ for that role.

not a lockdown defender but Otto Porter would be a solid target imo

Wait to see if Winslow doesn't get his option picked up and what happens in Memphis.