Game 64 : Philadelphia 76ers (42-21) @ San Antonio Spurs (31-31) l Sunday l 8:00pm

[DCasey91]

As has been the issue in past games, if Ben and Tobias isn’t scoring, someone has to help Embiid on that front. Curry saved the game, but he’s hardly a guy that is creating offense.

Shake didn’t take enough shots or get enough time, Hill was quiet, and Furk was atrocious. It was a hard fought win because we played a team full of creators who was missing their best two (DeRozan and Murray). They are the absolute opposite of our team.

The fatal flaw is that “someone” doesn’t exist on our team, can’t expect a pig to suddenly fly.
By the numbers never works out.

It is what it is but this is the hill we are on. Hopefully as fans they play well in the range of what they are only capable of. Like for me:

12/6/6/1/2 stat-line with great defense I’d be okay with for Ben right now in the playoffs.

18/8/3 for Toby 55% ts 35% from three (5+ Attempts)

I’m not expecting more than those types of numbers.

The rest aren’t needle movers, play their role well and hope for the best.

[76ciology]

The problem is Tobias. He needs to be the second leading scorer when he earns 37M. You cannot have Danny green or Seth taking more shots than Tobias.

You cannot beat Bucks or Nets with Tobias giving you 15 pts - 20 pts. If Joel gets into foul trouble you do not have a secondary option to score.

I don't think 76ers as constructed can beat bucks or nets in a 7 game series.

Problem are Tobi and Ben.

Neither can be a relied upon to be a second option on offense. I dont even think Ben could be a third option/release valve scorer.

Much worse when both of them combined for 11pts. Which is what Danny Green scored for the game.

The team is fatally flawed. Embiid can't be the go to scorer down the stretch. He won't get calls and will turn it over. Simmons obviously cant do it and Harris is yet to do it when it matters.

Unless George Hill becomes Kyrie the east coast finals will see this team out.

We know about this flaw thats why we almost traded Ben for Harden.

What we can do FOR NOW is to find ways on how to survive with this flaw.

I do think aside from Ben and Tobi, it has to be a collective effort from our bench to step up. Guys like D12, Milton and Furkan has to step up. Maybe even Maxey.

If it’s do or die and everything is failing. I’d probably go for a 4 guard line-up with Biid at C or maybe even try a 3 guard and Biid-D12 frontcourt.

It’s far from perfect but it’s the best we can do for now. Atleast we have options.

[Sixerscan]

As has been the issue in past games, if Ben and Tobias isn’t scoring, someone has to help Embiid on that front. Curry saved the game, but he’s hardly a guy that is creating offense.

Shake didn’t take enough shots or get enough time, Hill was quiet, and Furk was atrocious. It was a hard fought win because we played a team full of creators who was missing their best two (DeRozan and Murray). They are the absolute opposite of our team.

The fatal flaw is that “someone” doesn’t exist on our team, can’t expect a pig to suddenly fly.
By the numbers never works out.

It is what it is but this is the hill we are on. Hopefully as fans they play well in the range of what they are only capable of. Like for me:

12/6/6/1/2 stat-line with great defense I’d be okay with for Ben right now in the playoffs.

18/8/3 for Toby 55% ts 35% from three (5+ Attempts)

I’m not expecting more than those types of numbers.

The rest aren’t needle movers, play their role well and hope for the best.

Watching the Nets and Bucks basically play 2 on 3 yesterday I'm not sure if they really have many difference makers outside of their top guys either in the context of a playoff series. Bucks especially are an extremely top heavy team on offense. Get buy-in from everyone on defense though.

Our issue is more the top end supporting scoring that the role players. But hopefully the defense and hopefully home court is enough to carry the day. We'll see.

Certain need more than the combined 11 points in 71 minutes Ben and Tobias gave us last night. They were lucky they were playing a bad team with no answer for Embiid and Curry had a good game.

[76ciology]

When Tobi and Ben are struggling, you have to be creative. You have to find ways to create mismatches and made bad to average offensive player look good.

You can either play with your rotations. Like a 3 guard line-up where your guard will have a quickness advantage for your opponents to slowdown your dribble drive offense. Or maybe play with a really big frontcourt and force a mismatch down low for easy scoring opportunities or attack the board for extra possessions. Or maybe run some 2 man actions and punish the defense if the trap or switch the screen play.

Some may say its crazy but i think it would be more crazy if you ask a player who’s shooting blanks to keep jacking it up or expect back-up players like Milton to carry your offense.

Good coaching is embracing your flaws and structuring it that you can minimize your flaws and maximize your strengths.

[youngcrev]

Problem are Tobi and Ben.

Neither can be a relied upon to be a second option on offense. I dont even think Ben could be a third option/release valve scorer.

Much worse when both of them combined for 11pts. Which is what Danny Green scored for the game.

The team is fatally flawed. Embiid can't be the go to scorer down the stretch. He won't get calls and will turn it over. Simmons obviously cant do it and Harris is yet to do it when it matters.

Unless George Hill becomes Kyrie the east coast finals will see this team out.

We know about this flaw thats why we almost traded Ben for Harden.

What we can do FOR NOW is to find ways on how to survive with this flaw.

I do think aside from Ben and Tobi, it has to be a collective effort from our bench to step up. Guys like D12, Milton and Furkan has to step up. Maybe even Maxey.

If it’s do or die and everything is failing. I’d probably go for a 4 guard line-up with Biid at C or maybe even try a 3 guard and Biid-D12 frontcourt.

It’s far from perfect but it’s the best we can do for now. Atleast we have options.

[76ciology]

The team is fatally flawed. Embiid can't be the go to scorer down the stretch. He won't get calls and will turn it over. Simmons obviously cant do it and Harris is yet to do it when it matters.

Unless George Hill becomes Kyrie the east coast finals will see this team out.

We know about this flaw thats why we almost traded Ben for Harden.

What we can do FOR NOW is to find ways on how to survive with this flaw.

I do think aside from Ben and Tobi, it has to be a collective effort from our bench to step up. Guys like D12, Milton and Furkan has to step up. Maybe even Maxey.

If it’s do or die and everything is failing. I’d probably go for a 4 guard line-up with Biid at C or maybe even try a 3 guard and Biid-D12 frontcourt.

It’s far from perfect but it’s the best we can do for now. Atleast we have options.

I mentioned “if everything is failing”. Like in tonights game, Tobi and Ben were abysmal on offense.

It can work on some match-ups and/or on a limited stretch.

You can play a 4 out offense with those two because Biid is one of the best shooters in the league right now and is mobile as a PF. While Ben is one of the worst floor spacers in the league. Just as Duncan-Splitter, KG-Perkins, Dirk-Chandler and AD-D12(last year) back then.

Im a fan of unconventional 5 man units like 3 to 4 guard or 2 bigs 5 man units. I find that you can create match-up problems with those on the right circumstances and with the right dosage (limited minutes?).

[youngcrev]

We know about this flaw thats why we almost traded Ben for Harden.

What we can do FOR NOW is to find ways on how to survive with this flaw.

I do think aside from Ben and Tobi, it has to be a collective effort from our bench to step up. Guys like D12, Milton and Furkan has to step up. Maybe even Maxey.

If it’s do or die and everything is failing. I’d probably go for a 4 guard line-up with Biid at C or maybe even try a 3 guard and Biid-D12 frontcourt.

It’s far from perfect but it’s the best we can do for now. Atleast we have options.

I mentioned “if everything is failing”. Like in tonights game, Tobi and Ben were abysmal on offense.

It can work on some match-ups and/or on a limited stretch.

You can play a 4 out offense with those two because Biid is one of the best shooters in the league right now and is mobile as a PF. While Ben is one of the worst floor spacers in the league. Just as Duncan-Splitter, KG-Perkins, Dirk-Chandler and AD-D12(last year) back then.

Im a fan of unconventional 5 man units like 3 to 4 guard or 2 bigs 5 man units. I find that you can create match-up problems with those on the right circumstances and with the right dosage (limited minutes?).

I don't think a 4 guard, 1 center lineup is all that unconventional, and is probably something we'll see (particularly if Green and Thybulle are being considered guards in this scenario).

I just have a hard time seeing what matchup problem you're creating by putting Dwight on the floor with Embiid (at least for the opposing team). I guess you'd be really good at rebounding the ball?

[DCasey91]

76ciology has a very very valid point.

Does anyone actually have the measure of TJ’s impact against the Celtics? Was it a seriously big contribution to winning the game?

I can see where he’s coming from.

Something like this:

Hill
Curry
Korkmaz/Green
Harris
Embiid

Or

Curry
Hill
Milton
Harris/Green
Simmons

Run and gun it. Small Ball

Throw it all in. Heck even Maxey’s speed could be something with Embiid + shooters.

If our team has a serious flaw it can’t keep doing the same method and ending up with the same consistent result that’s insanity or at least that’s what the definition is.

[Sixerscan]

Does anyone actually have the measure of TJ’s impact against the Celtics? Was it a seriously big contribution to winning the game?

What a weird passive aggressive line of argument lol.

Simmons is going to play 40+ mpg during the playoffs.

[DCasey91]

Does anyone actually have the measure of TJ’s impact against the Celtics? Was it a seriously big contribution to winning the game?

What a weird passive aggressive line of argument lol.

Simmons is going to play 40+ mpg during the playoffs.

I think you completely missed the point here. Has nothing to do with Ben. Brown made a move TJ played well

All for short spurts, the International five if memory serves correct was pretty fun too.

Don’t change things don’t complain if the same results happen.

I actually find minutes on players to be quite unimaginative, robotic and routine like.

6 mins sit, 5 mins into the next quarter play, rinse and repeat.

I rate what Nash did bringing on Durant late instead of early.

[Negrodamus]

As has been the issue in past games, if Ben and Tobias isn’t scoring, someone has to help Embiid on that front. Curry saved the game, but he’s hardly a guy that is creating offense.

Shake didn’t take enough shots or get enough time, Hill was quiet, and Furk was atrocious. It was a hard fought win because we played a team full of creators who was missing their best two (DeRozan and Murray). They are the absolute opposite of our team.

The fatal flaw is that “someone” doesn’t exist on our team, can’t expect a pig to suddenly fly.
By the numbers never works out.

It is what it is but this is the hill we are on. Hopefully as fans they play well in the range of what they are only capable of. Like for me:

12/6/6/1/2 stat-line with great defense I’d be okay with for Ben right now in the playoffs.

18/8/3 for Toby 55% ts 35% from three (5+ Attempts)

I’m not expecting more than those types of numbers.

The rest aren’t needle movers, play their role well and hope for the best.

I'll just continue to be annoyingly pro-Shake (8 pts, 50% FG, 1/1 FT, 18 minutes, +1) as he's the guy that needs to show up when Tobi/Ben are laying an egg since he's the only one who can provide what they do, stress on the defense from creation and vision along with drawing fouls and getting points at the line.

The George Hill acquisition was a smart one, but it's cutting into Shake/Thybulle's minutes. Someone is going to lose minutes and I have to think it's Furkan.

[DCasey91]

I’m pretty honest on Shake he’s more of 6th man type than a starter let alone high quality. I mean he’s a late pick can’t expect much more than that. Doesn’t have the speed but what more troubling he struggles with his effort/ethic, it’s lackadaisical.

For me Furkan is whats most needed in the starting lineup catch and shoot all the way 2x of them (Green) helps Ben to generate threes for the team. Need a huge offensive offset for Thybulle which we don’t have (Same with Curry I mean it was clear to see when he played for the Blazers/Mavs). Can’t fit a square peg in a round hole.

The reason why Reddick had a career year for us is because he fits perfectly for both Ben and Embiid. Super quick trigger and moves around everywhere non stop. Huge difference between Curry. We’ve all seen Reddick hit crazy moving shots and is unconscious and would pull the trigger on any kind of space. Handoffs were our best bet because he was our release valve on the outside, no one on this team can do that to his level. Heck Harris still doesn’t. Curry is a set shooter at least Green and Korkmaz can shoot on the move that’s ideal for both Ben and Embiid even though the volume isn’t there nor the %.

The two man kept Reddicks defender on his hip at all times. Two defenders can cheat now (Ben and Harris’s man).

Was a great 4th banana he’ll give it up on defense but for teams sake we could have covered it.

I believe in the off-season the dynamic will change completely. Everything will revolve around Embiid and how to maximize him and the teams chances.

[Negrodamus]

So, Shake, who does the things we lack so desperately on offense, is not the answer, but Furkan, who is our taller Seth Curry, is the answer?

Got it, noted.

[Sixerscan]

Does anyone actually have the measure of TJ’s impact against the Celtics? Was it a seriously big contribution to winning the game?

What a weird passive aggressive line of argument lol.

Simmons is going to play 40+ mpg during the playoffs.

I think you completely missed the point here. Has nothing to do with Ben. Brown made a move TJ played well

All for short spurts, the International five if memory serves correct was pretty fun too.

Don’t change things don’t complain if the same results happen.

That playoff series was three years ago and literally the entire roster, coaching staff and front office besides Simmons and Embiid is different. Doesn't guarantee success or anything and the Bucks and Nets are much better than that Celtics team but things have certainly changed.

Even just with the two of them, the '18 team broke Simmons and Embiid lineups up as much as possible with Simmons leading small ball lineups and Embiid having a lineups with a lot shooting around him like you said, whereas this year Doc is basically playing them entirely together. That seems like a very different approach. If anything you are saying they should follow what they did 3 years ago.

[DCasey91]

So, Shake, who does the things we lack so desperately on offense, is not the answer, but Furkan, who is our taller Seth Curry, is the answer?

Got it, noted.

I stated my point clearly. We have Hill as the guard option. You need two moving shooters (Green/Korkmaz) and two ballhandlers around Ben/Embiid, Harris can act as pseudo creator. Fact is Milton doesn’t do enough when the pressure is on. Anything more than 13ppg of individual offense is asking abit much.

[DCasey91]

What a weird passive aggressive line of argument lol.

Simmons is going to play 40+ mpg during the playoffs.

I think you completely missed the point here. Has nothing to do with Ben. Brown made a move TJ played well

All for short spurts, the International five if memory serves correct was pretty fun too.

Don’t change things don’t complain if the same results happen.

That playoff series was three years ago and literally the entire roster, coaching staff and front office besides Simmons and Embiid is different. Doesn't guarantee success or anything and the Bucks and Nets are much better than that Celtics team but things have certainly changed.

Even just with the two of them, the '18 team broke Simmons and Embiid lineups up as much as possible with Simmons leading small ball lineups and Embiid having a lineups with a lot shooting around him like you said, whereas this year Doc is basically playing them entirely together. That seems like a very different approach. If anything you are saying they should follow what they did 3 years ago.

I’m saying you can’t make a pig fly and you can’t put a square peg into a round hole.
Simmons + Embiid you need highly specific players to max them out 1,2,3 positions have to be very nuanced. You already have two centers/big men to begin with.
Can’t put Ben in the dunkers spot or on the wing it cuts off numerous offensive schemes.

High wing PNR is the best option if you want to run a Ben/Embiid tandem game with shooters to the attacking side, worked out as well as it could down the stretch in a Celtics game, why Doc didn’t go back to that I have no idea.
Ben needs to be utilized as a big roll man/central point forward (Free throw position or top of the key) anything outside of that is bogus/fantasy land in half court offense. He can’t be the initiator unless with that high wing two man game. Trust me that works but they don’t synch well because the space is already comprised when all three are on the floor.
There is a chance Ben gets phased out in half court offense but I don’t want that to happen not when those three positions can work.

You centralize Ben in the middle as the point forward/small ball center or the roll man on the move and not him
as the guard breaking down a defense more as receiver more than the initiator of the play good things tend to happen.
Have to treat him as a passing center that doesn’t shoot not as a guard.

I mean if a see the good old dribble dribble in do nothing pass out it’s exactly an example of how to not know a players capability. Put him in passing/reading positions he’s good enough to hit targets on the move.

[76ciology]

I mentioned “if everything is failing”. Like in tonights game, Tobi and Ben were abysmal on offense.

It can work on some match-ups and/or on a limited stretch.

You can play a 4 out offense with those two because Biid is one of the best shooters in the league right now and is mobile as a PF. While Ben is one of the worst floor spacers in the league. Just as Duncan-Splitter, KG-Perkins, Dirk-Chandler and AD-D12(last year) back then.

Im a fan of unconventional 5 man units like 3 to 4 guard or 2 bigs 5 man units. I find that you can create match-up problems with those on the right circumstances and with the right dosage (limited minutes?).

I don't think a 4 guard, 1 center lineup is all that unconventional, and is probably something we'll see (particularly if Green and Thybulle are being considered guards in this scenario).

I just have a hard time seeing what matchup problem you're creating by putting Dwight on the floor with Embiid (at least for the opposing team). I guess you'd be really good at rebounding the ball?

Actually the 4 guard line-up is less conventional and the double bigs line-up is more conventional, look at the past teams that won a championship (see my example on previous post).

We can run the high low stuffs we used to run. Where you have Biid at the high post (FT line area), where we usually have Tobi or Ben posting a smaller defender. But in this case you can have D12 sealing a smaller PF.

You can also have two pairs of guard and a big on opposite ends where the guard where you have a 2 man game going on each side of the court. If one is denied, you can kick it to the other side where they’d run a 2 man game. Clips used to do it back then with Blake-DeAndre.

I hope you guys dont get me wrong. All im saying is we can do these kind of stuffs when “everything fails” and on “limited stretches”. You dont have to do these if everything is going fine. But you just can’t not do any adjustments if Tobi and Ben combines for 11pts in a do or die game.

And yes, if you watch Vogel last season or the 2018 Raps, they’d play big (ibaka-siakam-gasol) frontcourt and crash the boards where your low points per possession gets compensated with more possessions. ORebs and deflections.

My point is it is not Vivek crazy like playing 4v5 basketball with a guy always under our basket waiting for a pass.

Playing double bigs do work specially against teams that opts to play small. It used to destroy small ball teams like the Spurs destroying the Suns back in the days.

I’d be skeptic if we’d run this last season where Biid had a shaky jumper. But if Biid can maintain his league best mid range shooting, I do think it can work.

[DCasey91]

I really think they need to use Ben more as a passing small ball center/roll man than anything else imo. Think C Web or something to that nature.
Got to stop with the primary initiating action in half court that’s been done and dusted for years not much good will come from it.
I want him receiving more and allow his best asset (passing to be a linker through to threats).

[76ciology]

76ciology has a very very valid point.

Does anyone actually have the measure of TJ’s impact against the Celtics? Was it a seriously big contribution to winning the game?

I can see where he’s coming from.

Something like this:

Hill
Curry
Korkmaz/Green
Harris
Embiid

Or

Curry
Hill
Milton
Harris/Green
Simmons

Run and gun it. Small Ball

Throw it all in. Heck even Maxey’s speed could be something with Embiid + shooters.

If our team has a serious flaw it can’t keep doing the same method and ending up with the same consistent result that’s insanity or at least that’s what the definition is.

Yup.

Running unconventional line-ups can generate match-up problems which can turn average offensive players into good offensive players.

If you play small, if you add pace, you can empower the dribble drive. If you have GHill at SF, he’s two man game should be empowered given he’s against a wing who is likely slower than him. If not, you can do a multiple dribble drive action where little separation keeps adding up into a good shot.

If you play double big, you can always have a mismatch in the paint which may empower someone like D12 into a scorer. Remember how hard it was to defend the Odom-Gasol-Bynum deathball of the Lakers back then?

Actually if you think about it we have a double tweener duo with Tobi and Ben, thus you can see Doc sometimes trying to play high low with Biid at the high post and dumping the ball to either tobi and ben against the mismatch (see Jazz game).

Just saying, these are options we can look at and it doesnt mean we have to play a single way for full 48.

[Sixerscan]

I think you completely missed the point here. Has nothing to do with Ben. Brown made a move TJ played well

All for short spurts, the International five if memory serves correct was pretty fun too.

Don’t change things don’t complain if the same results happen.

That playoff series was three years ago and literally the entire roster, coaching staff and front office besides Simmons and Embiid is different. Doesn't guarantee success or anything and the Bucks and Nets are much better than that Celtics team but things have certainly changed.

Even just with the two of them, the '18 team broke Simmons and Embiid lineups up as much as possible with Simmons leading small ball lineups and Embiid having a lineups with a lot shooting around him like you said, whereas this year Doc is basically playing them entirely together. That seems like a very different approach. If anything you are saying they should follow what they did 3 years ago.

I’m saying you can’t make a pig fly and you can’t put a square peg into a round hole.
Simmons + Embiid you need highly specific players to max them out 1,2,3 positions have to be very nuanced. You already have two centers/big men to begin with.
Can’t put Ben in the dunkers spot or on the wing it cuts off numerous offensive schemes.

High wing PNR is the best option if you want to run a Ben/Embiid tandem game with shooters to the attacking side, worked out as well as it could down the stretch in a Celtics game, why Doc didn’t go back to that I have no idea.
Ben needs to be utilized as a big roll man/central point forward (Free throw position or top of the key) anything outside of that is bogus/fantasy land in half court offense. He can’t be the initiator unless with that high wing two man game. Trust me that works but they don’t synch well because the space is already comprised when all three are on the floor.
There is a chance Ben gets phased out in half court offense but I don’t want that to happen not when those three positions can work.

Well this all goes back to you not saying what you really mean... you want them to downside Simmons' role and eventually trade him... clearly that's not happening over the next few months. If they didn't do it in the beginning of the season they aren't going to do it after going through the regular season with hopefully the best record in the conference.

I understand your critiques of Simmons because you've said them like 1,000 times including in every game thread where he plays poorly but like I said they're not going to reduce his role at this point so I don't see the point of pretending otherwise.

Like I said, he's playing 40 mpg including all of crunch time. He's probably going to play almost all his minutes with Embiid because the backup center is an even worse fit with him and the only other realistic person on the roster over 6'8" that Doc might play is Mike Scott. Maybe they go to some crazy small ball thing at some point but I'm not counting on it. Figure out a plan with all those as that assumption as part of it or we are living in fantasy land...