Game 64 : Philadelphia 76ers (42-21) @ San Antonio Spurs (31-31) l Sunday l 8:00pm

[DCasey91]

Ben offensive role is already being downsized
I want Ben’s offensive role more like in College then in the NBA. He plays the roll man well with a shooting ballhandler, can hit cutters etc.
I mean he’s our best passer, put him in positions to be the passer that his, not some self suffienct 3 lvl scorer/shooter that’s never been his game, never will be.

I mean there’s plenty of footage to know when Ben is centralized off a receiving action with space good things tend to happen.

[kuclas]

Watch the end of regulation. Embiid simply doesn’t have the vision. After thybulle does incredible block Embiid gets the ball. He’s got both Harris and Simmons running waiting for outlet pass. Jokic would do the outlet pass to the right guy. Embiid holds it. I guess it’s the safe thing to do and just hold the ball.

Remember when Sixers down by 2 with Toronto end of regulation game 7. Harris got the ball off the rebound and outlet pass to butler for tying layup.

So passing is still a huge negative for Embiid. He’s still getting better. He does see the open guy more. But at that stage in the game. If he throws it out to Harris or Simmons for fast break. It’s likely a layup last night in regulation.

[youngcrev]

Actually the 4 guard line-up is less conventional and the double bigs line-up is more conventional, look at the past teams that won a championship (see my example on previous post).

We can run the high low stuffs we used to run. Where you have Biid at the high post (FT line area), where we usually have Tobi or Ben posting a smaller defender. But in this case you can have D12 sealing a smaller PF.

You can also have two pairs of guard and a big on opposite ends where the guard where you have a 2 man game going on each side of the court. If one is denied, you can kick it to the other side where they’d run a 2 man game. Clips used to do it back then with Blake-DeAndre.

I hope you guys dont get me wrong. All im saying is we can do these kind of stuffs when “everything fails” and on “limited stretches”. You dont have to do these if everything is going fine. But you just can’t not do any adjustments if Tobi and Ben combines for 11pts in a do or die game.

And yes, if you watch Vogel last season or the 2018 Raps, they’d play big (ibaka-siakam-gasol) frontcourt and crash the boards where your low points per possession gets compensated with more possessions. ORebs and deflections.

My point is it is not Vivek crazy like playing 4v5 basketball with a guy always under our basket waiting for a pass.

Playing double bigs do work specially against teams that opts to play small. It used to destroy small ball teams like the Spurs destroying the Suns back in the days.

I’d be skeptic if we’d run this last season where Biid had a shaky jumper. But if Biid can maintain his league best mid range shooting, I do think it can work.

The majority of teams start 2 guards, 2 wings, and a center. Seeing a 3 guard, 1 wing, 1 center lineup isn't a rarity, which I presume is what you're talking about with Shake-Hill-Curry sharing the floor with one of Green, Korkmaz or Thybulle. Unless you mean playing Maxey with those guys... Which doesn't seem helpful.

Embiid and Dwight are strictly 5-men. This isn't like having Anthony Davis, Serge Ibaka or Al Horford where you've got a guy that has spent a great deal of time at the 4. You'd be putting one of them at a disadvantage defensively without gaining a real offensive advantage (having Embiid space so that Dwight can post up a forward isn't exactly good offense).

[Sixerscan]

Ben offensive role is already being downsized
I want Ben’s offensive role more like in College then in the NBA. He plays the roll man well with a shooting ballhandler, can hit cutters etc.
I mean he’s our best passer, put him in positions to be the passer that his, not some self suffienct 3 lvl scorer/shooter that’s never been his game, never will be.

I mean there’s plenty of footage to know when Ben is centralized off a receiving action with space good things tend to happen.

Sure, he's acting as the lead ball handler in the half court much less this year than any other time besides when Butler was here. I'm not sure if the roster as constructed would really benefit from it going much more extreme though. If the Lowry trade happened it's a different story.

[Negrodamus]

So, Shake, who does the things we lack so desperately on offense, is not the answer, but Furkan, who is our taller Seth Curry, is the answer?

Got it, noted.

I stated my point clearly. We have Hill as the guard option. You need two moving shooters (Green/Korkmaz) and two ballhandlers around Ben/Embiid, Harris can act as pseudo creator. Fact is Milton doesn’t do enough when the pressure is on. Anything more than 13ppg of individual offense is asking abit much.

Funny you say, Milton was a 14.5 ppg scorer in last year's playoffs, his first playoff experience. He's a 19 ppg scorer in the three games he's started this year. 22.8 ppg when he gets more than 30 minutes in a game.

He's third on the team in eligible per-36 in ppg (20.2 ppg). So when you say you don't think he's capable of being more than a 13ppg scorer, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Have gripes about his defense, they are valid. His scoring and creating are objectively top 4 on the team.

[Eyeamok]

So, Shake, who does the things we lack so desperately on offense, is not the answer, but Furkan, who is our taller Seth Curry, is the answer?

Got it, noted.

I stated my point clearly. We have Hill as the guard option. You need two moving shooters (Green/Korkmaz) and two ballhandlers around Ben/Embiid, Harris can act as pseudo creator. Fact is Milton doesn’t do enough when the pressure is on. Anything more than 13ppg of individual offense is asking abit much.

Funny you say, Milton was a 14.5 ppg scorer in last year's playoffs, his first playoff experience. He's a 19 ppg scorer in the three games he's started this year. 22.8 ppg when he gets more than 30 minutes in a game.

He's third on the team in eligible per-36 in ppg (20.2 ppg). So when you say you don't think he's capable of being more than a 13ppg scorer, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Have gripes about his defense, they are valid. His scoring and creating are objectively top 4 on the team.

Do not believe the numbers that Shake puts up as a starter or when he gets 30 minutes or more in a game. When the game does not matter or the spotlight is not on him, Shake is capable of putting up good numbers. Critical games or games when we need the real Shake to show up maybe even carry the team for a while forget about it.

As always I'd be happy to be proven wrong. But in this instance the numbers don't tell the whole story. The man is a shrinking violet when it gets hot.

[Mik317]

Shake cannot be asked to run an offense. he has poor vision. He is fine when others can do that for him and he can just focus on scoring. Its why the bench unit has finally begun to gel....the moment another guard worth guarding from 3 came..

[76ciology]

We have to work as a unit. Each player empowering the unit. It is what it is. Our perimeter players are limited on offense, but we have to structure it to hide their flaws.

Shake needs to play with multiple guys who can breakdown the defense. He’s not a guard where you can just let him
run 2 man games like Jamal Murray.

Our guards are not that good in breaking down the defense, you need multiple dribble drive actions until we get a good look on offense. Kind of like how the Spurs used to do it back then. But there’s just no chemistry with it right now, because they havent spent a lot of time together. Thats why you see Doc playing a lot of time with a 5 man unit composed of non starters.

Shake can also play with the starters where the guys are talented to generate some gaps until its big enough for Shake to operate or shoot. Bigs also are less reluctant to contest his shot off a 2 man game because of Biid’s presence, unlike D12.

[Negrodamus]

We have to work as a unit. Each player empowering the unit. It is what it is. Our perimeter players are limited on offense, but we have to structure it to hide their flaws.

Shake needs to play with multiple guys who can breakdown the defense. He’s not a guard where you can just let him
run 2 man games like Jamal Murray.

Our guards are not that good in breaking down the defense, you need multiple dribble drive actions until we get a good look on offense. Kind of like how the Spurs used to do it back then. But there’s just no chemistry with it right now, because they havent spent a lot of time together. Thats why you see Doc playing a lot of time with a 5 man unit composed of non starters.

Shake can also play with the starters where the guys are talented to generate some gaps until its big enough for Shake to operate or shoot. Bigs also are less reluctant to contest his shot off a 2 man game because of Biid’s presence, unlike D12.

I agree with this. I think Shake needs to play in units with Thybulle/Howard and Ben/Joel. To me, he makes sense as a starter with Green, Harris, Ben, and Joel, then he comes out for Curry while Embiid is still in and eventually returns when Dwight is subbed in for Joel. He needs defense that can cover for him, but he needs opportunity as the scorer. I think he and Tobias probably hurt each other's worth on the floor.

The truly unfortunate part is that Embiid doesn't set screens like Dwight. Dwight give Shake so much daylight, but Dwight is a liability as the role man whereas Embiid would obliterate the defense when it's in disarray. Can't have it all when you have the best 7fter in the league, but he would be scoring easier baskets for sure.

[BB_Fan]

The problem is not Shake Milton or Furkan korkmaz who are on minimum deals. It is Tobias Harris.

As a player earning earning 37M and complaining he is not selected for all star , he needs to play like an all star. Scoring 15 - 20 pts per game is not enough. He needs to demand the ball when Joel is double teamed and score 30 ~ 35 pts per game.

[youngcrev]

We have to work as a unit. Each player empowering the unit. It is what it is. Our perimeter players are limited on offense, but we have to structure it to hide their flaws.

Shake needs to play with multiple guys who can breakdown the defense. He’s not a guard where you can just let him
run 2 man games like Jamal Murray.

Our guards are not that good in breaking down the defense, you need multiple dribble drive actions until we get a good look on offense. Kind of like how the Spurs used to do it back then. But there’s just no chemistry with it right now, because they havent spent a lot of time together. Thats why you see Doc playing a lot of time with a 5 man unit composed of non starters.

Shake can also play with the starters where the guys are talented to generate some gaps until its big enough for Shake to operate or shoot. Bigs also are less reluctant to contest his shot off a 2 man game because of Biid’s presence, unlike D12.

I agree with this. I think Shake needs to play in units with Thybulle/Howard and Ben/Joel. To me, he makes sense as a starter with Green, Harris, Ben, and Joel, then he comes out for Curry while Embiid is still in and eventually returns when Dwight is subbed in for Joel. He needs defense that can cover for him, but he needs opportunity as the scorer. I think he and Tobias probably hurt each other's worth on the floor.

The truly unfortunate part is that Embiid doesn't set screens like Dwight. Dwight give Shake so much daylight, but Dwight is a liability as the role man whereas Embiid would obliterate the defense when it's in disarray. Can't have it all when you have the best 7fter in the league, but he would be scoring easier baskets for sure.

I'm sure if Jo decided he wanted to add that to his game this off-season he'd have no problem picking it up. It's like his superpower. Dude just decides he wants to add something to his game and it just happens. Watching a guy his size do euro steps and step backs is just ridiculous.

As is, I'd love to see Ben embrace the role of roll man, if nothing else because it's his easiest pathway to being an effective half court player. His athleticism, dexterity and court vision should at least in theory make him really good at it, even if he's not an elite finisher around the basket.

[TTP]

The team is fatally flawed. Embiid can't be the go to scorer down the stretch. He won't get calls and will turn it over. Simmons obviously cant do it and Harris is yet to do it when it matters.

Unless George Hill becomes Kyrie the east coast finals will see this team out.

We know about this flaw thats why we almost traded Ben for Harden.

What we can do FOR NOW is to find ways on how to survive with this flaw.

I do think aside from Ben and Tobi, it has to be a collective effort from our bench to step up. Guys like D12, Milton and Furkan has to step up. Maybe even Maxey.

If it’s do or die and everything is failing. I’d probably go for a 4 guard line-up with Biid at C or maybe even try a 3 guard and Biid-D12 frontcourt.

It’s far from perfect but it’s the best we can do for now. Atleast we have options.

It’s 2021 and 76ciology is still trying to push for a twin tower lineup.

[TTP]

So, Shake, who does the things we lack so desperately on offense, is not the answer, but Furkan, who is our taller Seth Curry, is the answer?

Got it, noted.

I stated my point clearly. We have Hill as the guard option. You need two moving shooters (Green/Korkmaz) and two ballhandlers around Ben/Embiid, Harris can act as pseudo creator. Fact is Milton doesn’t do enough when the pressure is on. Anything more than 13ppg of individual offense is asking abit much.

Korkmaz is a moving shooter, but one huge difference between Korkmaz and Redick is that Korkmaz completely avoids the mid-range and has poor percentages there.

Much of the Embiid/Redick two man game operated in that space. Korkmaz is also a much worse shooter than Redick (or Curry).

[TTP]

I stated my point clearly. We have Hill as the guard option. You need two moving shooters (Green/Korkmaz) and two ballhandlers around Ben/Embiid, Harris can act as pseudo creator. Fact is Milton doesn’t do enough when the pressure is on. Anything more than 13ppg of individual offense is asking abit much.

Funny you say, Milton was a 14.5 ppg scorer in last year's playoffs, his first playoff experience. He's a 19 ppg scorer in the three games he's started this year. 22.8 ppg when he gets more than 30 minutes in a game.

He's third on the team in eligible per-36 in ppg (20.2 ppg). So when you say you don't think he's capable of being more than a 13ppg scorer, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Have gripes about his defense, they are valid. His scoring and creating are objectively top 4 on the team.

Do not believe the numbers that Shake puts up as a starter or when he gets 30 minutes or more in a game. When the game does not matter or the spotlight is not on him, Shake is capable of putting up good numbers. Critical games or games when we need the real Shake to show up maybe even carry the team for a while forget about it.

As always I'd be happy to be proven wrong. But in this instance the numbers don't tell the whole story. The man is a shrinking violet when it gets hot.

Seems like a lot of narrative that you don’t have data to support.

He had a 61.6% TS starting and playing 31.5 mpg in the playoffs last year that goes against everything you’re saying.

[DCasey91]

Milton
Hill
Green
Harris
Simmons

I do want to see this lineup play out in the playoffs.
Milton works well with Ben, and Hill is a vet, Harris can also PNR with Ben. 4 out with Ben as Small Ball.
Agaisnt the Heat it’s a fine strategy, heck even against the Bucks/Nets/Celtics our direct threats.

Problem 1# A big guy that can’t create his own offense, not uncommon at all. Post play Ben/central Ben works out sometimes better then Embiid. He’s our best passer, let him hit cutters, wings, on the move etc.

This lineup should be before half time. Ben gets most of opportunities before the 4th so capitalize on it.

Problem 2# Love him but an Embiid centric offense has diminishing returns the more you use it especially in the crunch (Awarness, Passing, Flow goes to a halt for a 2, individual scoring not team offense).

Hill
Milton/Curry
Green
Harris
Embiid

Same thing, same deal. It’s a stagger between the two but for me this can work well.

Then option 3:

Hill
Milton
Green/Korkmaz
Simmons
Embiid

The consistent thing with these three lineups really only two should venture in on a consistent basis. Take it in turns on who wants to eat.

Leaves enough space, got to let big guys have room to operate. trying to maximize the space.

The thing with 94’95’ Hakeem was it was about 50-50 perimeter/Hakeem centric. Add to the fact he had the most space I’ve ever seen for an ATG big barely anyone ventured in willy nilly. He’s more mobile and a better passer then Embiid and way quicker to force the issue but you get the idea here.

[76ciology]

We know about this flaw thats why we almost traded Ben for Harden.

What we can do FOR NOW is to find ways on how to survive with this flaw.

I do think aside from Ben and Tobi, it has to be a collective effort from our bench to step up. Guys like D12, Milton and Furkan has to step up. Maybe even Maxey.

If it’s do or die and everything is failing. I’d probably go for a 4 guard line-up with Biid at C or maybe even try a 3 guard and Biid-D12 frontcourt.

It’s far from perfect but it’s the best we can do for now. Atleast we have options.

It’s 2021 and 76ciology is still trying to push for a twin tower lineup.

That’s how i feel when we faced the ill equipped Hawks or the Hornets where they’re like “it’s 2021 and their best player is a center”. Nothing is obsolete.

Same thing when Nuggets made micro ball of the Rox of having Tucker at C, look like a gimmick. While the Rox don’t have a counter because all they know is to play microball.

In basketball, you need optionality so you can control the game. Im not saying we play D12-Biid frontcourt most time. Maybe it’s just a 3 minute stretch. And sometimes a 3 minute stretch determines a game. And a game can determine a series. A fat tail event.

[76ciology]

We dont have really good players after Embiid.

There are some instances where D12 can be more effective than Ben or Shake can be more effective than Tobi. Depending on match-ups.

That’s what we have right now.

If you dont have this mindset then you’ll again have this delusion that Ben and Tobi would be on another level in the playoffs.

I recently saw a comment after the Bucks beat the Nets. I read a comment of how “im not afraid of the Nets and their weak defense”. Bucks big 3 scored 93 pts in that game.

Can you expect Biid, Tobi and Ben to get you 93pts for 7 games? Maybe once or twice. But for 7 games? They’re not that skilled.

The advantage we have over other teams is depth and flexibility. Embracing who we are and empowering guys to be more than who they are.

If you’re just going to compare our guys straight up with the guys of other teams then you’re just setting yourself up for failure.

[TTP]

We dont have really good players after Embiid.

There are some instances where D12 can be more effective than Ben or Shake can be more effective than Tobi. Depending on match-ups.

That’s what we have right now.

If you dont have this mindset then you’ll again have this delusion that Ben and Tobi would be on another level in the playoffs.

I recently saw a comment after the Bucks beat the Nets. I read a comment of how “im not afraid of the Nets and their weak defense”. Bucks big 3 scored 93 pts in that game.

Can you expect Biid, Tobi and Ben to get you 93pts for 7 games? Maybe once or twice. But for 7 games? They’re not that skilled.

The advantage we have over other teams is depth and flexibility. Embracing who we are and empowering guys to be more than who they are.

If you’re just going to compare our guys straight up with the guys of other teams then you’re just setting yourself up for failure.

After seeing the failure of bullyball with Okafor/Noel, Okafor/Embiid, and Horford/Embiid, we get a live look at 76ciology trying to rationalize it again:

Watch on YouTube

[76ciology]

We dont have really good players after Embiid.

There are some instances where D12 can be more effective than Ben or Shake can be more effective than Tobi. Depending on match-ups.

That’s what we have right now.

If you dont have this mindset then you’ll again have this delusion that Ben and Tobi would be on another level in the playoffs.

I recently saw a comment after the Bucks beat the Nets. I read a comment of how “im not afraid of the Nets and their weak defense”. Bucks big 3 scored 93 pts in that game.

Can you expect Biid, Tobi and Ben to get you 93pts for 7 games? Maybe once or twice. But for 7 games? They’re not that skilled.

The advantage we have over other teams is depth and flexibility. Embracing who we are and empowering guys to be more than who they are.

If you’re just going to compare our guys straight up with the guys of other teams then you’re just setting yourself up for failure.

After seeing the failure of bullyball with Okafor/Noel, Okafor/Embiid, and Horford/Embiid, we get a live look at 76ciology trying to rationalize it again:

Watch on YouTube

Small sample size of our past attempts that failed compared to a bigger sample size of championship teams that worked.

While Embiid is a much different player right now. D12 isnt a worse floor spacer than Ben. While D12 can be a more lethal scorer than Ben, on some circumstances (a harder player to stop in the paint than Ben).

Again, ive been clear from my first post. Im talking about being open to running it for a small sample size and on specific scenarios. Ive said it over and over again just to not mislead anyone.

Whereas Ive also mentioned other variations such as a 3 to 4 guard line-up with either D12 or Biid just to further prove my point about optionality.

[youngcrev]

We dont have really good players after Embiid.

There are some instances where D12 can be more effective than Ben or Shake can be more effective than Tobi. Depending on match-ups.

That’s what we have right now.

If you dont have this mindset then you’ll again have this delusion that Ben and Tobi would be on another level in the playoffs.

I recently saw a comment after the Bucks beat the Nets. I read a comment of how “im not afraid of the Nets and their weak defense”. Bucks big 3 scored 93 pts in that game.

Can you expect Biid, Tobi and Ben to get you 93pts for 7 games? Maybe once or twice. But for 7 games? They’re not that skilled.

The advantage we have over other teams is depth and flexibility. Embracing who we are and empowering guys to be more than who they are.

If you’re just going to compare our guys straight up with the guys of other teams then you’re just setting yourself up for failure.

After seeing the failure of bullyball with Okafor/Noel, Okafor/Embiid, and Horford/Embiid, we get a live look at 76ciology trying to rationalize it again:

Watch on YouTube

Small sample size of our past attempts that failed compared to a bigger sample size of championship teams that worked.

While Embiid is a much different player right now. D12 isnt a worse floor spacer than Ben. While D12 can be a more lethal scorer than Ben, on some circumstances (a harder player to stop in the paint than Ben).

Again, ive been clear from my first post. Im talking about being open to running it for a small sample size and on specific scenarios. Ive said it over and over again just to not mislead anyone.

Whereas Ive also mentioned other variations such as a 3 to 4 guard line-up with either D12 or Biid just to further prove my point about optionality.

We've got the best post player in the game. If your end game is using him to space for a bad post player, it's a bad outcome.

As for Dwight not being any worse of a spacer than Ben, one, I don't think that's true, and two, you're literally taking the worst aspect of having Ben on the floor without getting any of the advantages. Dwight's not a ball handler, passer, or perimeter defender, the things that Ben does at an elite level that compensate for his shortcomings.

How you could land on "Dwight Howard" as the answer in a question of how we're going to score enough points is beyond me.