2020-2021 Regular Season Game 65: Orlando Magic (20-44) at Detroit Pistons (19-45)

[pepe1991]

So both moderators were arguing me how it's still much better to improve odds by sucking, when i said you can't suck your path toward great picks, and now they are ones who are doing demage control and telling people how being 2# worst or 6# worst isn't big deal?

In order to finish 6th Magic really didn't need to blow up whole roster. They were on that path regardless. Now they have same odds and no good players in sight

Anyway good win guys, this G league royal rumbles will help us builg great winning culture and Cole Anthony and Mo Bamba will lead us to championships

Damn it, forgot green font *srugs*

Let’s hold our horses here.

What Orlando rolled out tonight was bad. However, Detroit was abysmal.

Their FO beat ours in the tank game behind the scenes despite a decent effort.

With Evan, AG, and Vucevic we wouldn’t be anywhere near the conversation against a team like Detroit in a tank war. We’d be on a treadmill with zero hope and discussing the decision between Zaire Williams and Isaiah Jackson come lotto time.

We would still finish 6th, 7th or 8th due injuries...
Now we will finish 6th just with virtually no talent

[SOUL]

So both moderators were arguing me how it's still much better to improve odds by sucking, when i said you can't suck your path toward great picks, and now they are ones who are doing demage control and telling people how being 2# worst or 6# worst isn't big deal?

It's not damage control, and it's contextually a different point than the points you were trying to make when it came to losing. I still want us to have a high floor and finish second worst, but I am acutely aware that the top 4 odds are not that much greater from that position compared to 5th. That's my personal opinion but I'm not going to get pissed if the young guys win games. It happens and it's not something I have control over. I think if you are going to be a bad team, trying to maximize your draft position is the smart thing to do. For the most part, we've played young guys and rode with really bad lineups and still won games. If we're winning with all veterans it's a different story.

And it's also specifically responding to people that think we're losing out on a top pick 4 because of us winning these games when in reality we're lowering our floor. So I'm trying to point out that if people are worried about the top 4 chances being gone, that's not the thing to freak out about.. it's if we're worried about Kuminga turning into Barnes or Kispert or Moody or something.

[SOUL]

Also I'm probably like the easiest person to please when it comes to rookies lol. I always give them a chance and know there is talent outside of the top 5 that we simply have to do our due diligence on if we end up around there. **** up on Hezonja? There was still Booker. Don't like Isaac? You still have Bam or Mitchell. Hate Bamba? There's still SGA or MPJ. Not easy to figure out pre-draft, but that's what scouting is for.

I know at this time next year there will be some players picked after 5 that go off and then we'll be like "why didn't we draft them!!" when the general feeling all draft before it is that there is no talent beyond top 5 and we're not excited about anybody.

However, obviously, I want us to get a top 4 pick and think it can change the culture if we hit on a legit scorer or floor general.

[pepe1991]

So both moderators were arguing me how it's still much better to improve odds by sucking, when i said you can't suck your path toward great picks, and now they are ones who are doing demage control and telling people how being 2# worst or 6# worst isn't big deal?

It's not damage control, and it's contextually a different point than the points you were trying to make when it came to losing. I still want us to have a high floor and finish second worst, but I am acutely aware that the top 4 odds are not that much greater from that position compared to 5th. That's my personal opinion but I'm not going to get pissed if the young guys win games. It happens and it's not something I have control over. I think if you are going to be a bad team, trying to maximize your draft position is the smart thing to do. For the most part, we've played young guys and rode with really bad lineups and still won games. If we're winning with all veterans it's a different story.

And it's also specifically responding to people that think we're losing out on a top pick 4 because of us winning these games when in reality we're lowering our floor. So I'm trying to point out that if people are worried about the top 4 chances being gone, that's not the thing to freak out about.. it's if we're worried about Kuminga turning into Barnes or Kispert or Moody or something.

Ending up 29th in standings means you will have 52,1% chance at keeping top 4 pick, and you can't fall pass 6.
Only actual way how team COULD fall out of 4 is if somehow all 4 drawn picks end up not being owned by 29th worst team NOR 30th worst team. There is very, very little probabilty of it . Average pick range for 29th worst record is 3rd to 4th.

Average pick range for 25th worst team ( 6th worst record) is 5th or 6th.

Again, most people don't really understand how lottery is even played out. Only 4 picks are drawn 1,2,3 and 4th. All other picks are in seeding order. It's not JUST about odds, it's about where you are slotted after if don't win lottery and you are not drawn with 4 balls.
If 4 teams jump over 29th and 30# worst team, they are guaranteed 5th and 6th pick. IF that happends and Magic are not among those 4 jumping teams, Magic are drafting 9th from 25th spot.

Also in this draft in particular, if you don't have top 4 pick ( Mobley, Cade, Suggs or Green) it's terrible draft to have two mid first round lottery picks because this is very bad draft when it comes to depth of talent. This is probably worst lottery in years anyway.
This idea that you will offer somebody Kispert and Mitchell and they will trade you Cade or Suggs is hilarious. It's like offering Thon Maker and Chriss Dunn for Ben Simmons. It's fan -fiction and it doesn't matter how many picks you attach to it, that trade won't happen.

Lottery is still lottery and luck will play big part of Magic future.

For the most part, we've played young guys and rode with really bad lineups and still won games. If we're winning with all veterans it's a different story.

This is just bu*** argument and you know it. It doesn't matter. You are not winning because you are beating some high level contending teams that give their apsolute best just can't beat your young, upcomming stars, you play esencially Cavs third stringers with your own young third stringers, who, just like Cavs or Pistons third stringers, are projected to be career backups who won't do anything for you.
Pistons send you roster with tallest player being 6'8 and your two centers + Wagner score 43 points on them. Is that "winning by young players"?

You beat Cavs in game where Kevin Love looks like lucky fan selected to play a game by Dwayne Bacon (26) and Gery Harris (28) combine for 35 points.

You beat Memphis on buzzerbeater but who actually wins that game? Mo Wagner ( 24 points, 24 years, basically out of nba) and again Dwayne Bacon ( 23 points , 26 years old).

There is not single player on current Orlando Magic worth "letting lose" if that means winning games. Not a single one. There is not a single aveliable young player that will carry this team anywhere nor be part of "winning " roster. What they are doing now is finding "pride" in winning games against equally terrible team that they outhustle because they are allowed to do so.
You have Hampton ( definition of G league player ) and Cole Anthony ( definition of player that will never be positive contributor ) barking on twitter how they are not going to tank.

Congratulations, among G league rosters remaining in nba, Magic might have most prideful one.

[axl_c_cool]

Also I'm probably like the easiest person to please when it comes to rookies lol. I always give them a chance and know there is talent outside of the top 5 that we simply have to do our due diligence on if we end up around there. **** up on Hezonja? There was still Booker. Don't like Isaac? You still have Bam or Mitchell. Hate Bamba? There's still SGA or MPJ. Not easy to figure out pre-draft, but that's what scouting is for.

I know at this time next year there will be some players picked after 5 that go off and then we'll be like "why didn't we draft them!!" when the general feeling all draft before it is that there is no talent beyond top 5 and we're not excited about anybody.

However, obviously, I want us to get a top 4 pick and think it can change the culture if we hit on a legit scorer or floor general.

I have to say mate, isn't the point in the Bulls pick to try and find the Booker, SGA, player?

The whole point in blowing up the roster and tanking was to make sure we have our best shot at a franchise changing player, and we seem to have blown it. A week ago we were likely to get the 2nd worst record, now 5th or 6th, that's a disaster I'm afraid.

The worst part is, this roster, even with Fultz and Isaac back from injury, is likely a top 10 lottery team. We could/should be going into 22/23 season with

21 franchise player
21 high level starter/All Star
22 high level starter/All Star
Isaac
Fultz
Okeke
Cole
WCJ
Bamba
Hampton

That roster would have us in our best position in over a decade, and we keep winning pointless games with players who won't be close to that roster

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[SOUL]

I have to say mate, isn't the point in the Bulls pick to try and find the Booker, SGA, player?

Ideally, yes, or I can see it actually used in a trade for another young player on a different team or attempting to move up, but we aren't guaranteed to have that pick as of yet. Don't want to count our chickens before they hatch.

The whole point in blowing up the roster and tanking was to make sure we have our best shot at a franchise changing player, and we seem to have blown it. A week ago we were likely to get the 2nd worst record, now 5th or 6th, that's a disaster I'm afraid.

With all due respect, these are the kinds of notions I am trying to dispel with my posts. We haven't blown it as badly in terms of our ability to get into the top four (we've went from 52% to 45%) by going from 2nd/3rd to 5th, which is a 7% decrease. A decent decrease but not monumental.. but we absolutely have made it way more likely we get the 6th, 7th, or 8th pick instead of the 5th and 6th being the most likely previously (as of right now).

I really don't know why people are getting mad at me (not you) for stating these numbers, but I am trying to hammer home the point that if your ultimate worry is not getting a franchise player, there's only a decrease of 7% (as of right now, it can change positively or negatively) - but if the worry is our floor.. those percentages are more drastic and cause for concern.

And on the flipside, we have no control over any of this. Whether the kids play well, whether another team plays worse, how the lotto numbers hit for us, if we make the correct pick... it all is out of our hands.

[JBSouthpaw]

Also I'm probably like the easiest person to please when it comes to rookies lol. I always give them a chance and know there is talent outside of the top 5 that we simply have to do our due diligence on if we end up around there. **** up on Hezonja? There was still Booker. Don't like Isaac? You still have Bam or Mitchell. Hate Bamba? There's still SGA or MPJ. Not easy to figure out pre-draft, but that's what scouting is for.

I know at this time next year there will be some players picked after 5 that go off and then we'll be like "why didn't we draft them!!" when the general feeling all draft before it is that there is no talent beyond top 5 and we're not excited about anybody.

However, obviously, I want us to get a top 4 pick and think it can change the culture if we hit on a legit scorer or floor general.

I have to say mate, isn't the point in the Bulls pick to try and find the Booker, SGA, player?

The whole point in blowing up the roster and tanking was to make sure we have our best shot at a franchise changing player, and we seem to have blown it. A week ago we were likely to get the 2nd worst record, now 5th or 6th, that's a disaster I'm afraid.

The worst part is, this roster, even with Fultz and Isaac back from injury, is likely a top 10 lottery team. We could/should be going into 22/23 season with

21 franchise player
21 high level starter/All Star
22 high level starter/All Star
Isaac
Fultz
Okeke
Cole
WCJ
Bamba
Hampton

That roster would have us in our best position in over a decade, and we keep winning pointless games with players who won't be close to that roster

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With that roster, we'd probably have about $20M in Cap too, even extending WCJ & Bamba reasonably.

[PigsEatHam]

Well, this win is unfortunate.

I know it would never happen, but I sort of wish once the game got close that a player like Brazdeikis or Randle would start throwing in uncontested lay-ups into Detroit's basket on the inbounds plays and see how long it would take before Dwayne Casey was screaming from the sidelines to tackle him. Just to underscore the absurdity of what we're watching. Maybe that's the trick for when two bottom-dwelling teams play each other: every point you score gets added to your opponent's total.

In all seriousness, the league needs to flatten the draft odds for all non-playoff teams (or, possibly even, all teams), where regardless of record you get the same odds for where your pick lands. Randomize it completely and remove all incentive to tank, because it's sad seeing professional teams try their absolute hardest to lose.

[basketballRob]

So both moderators were arguing me how it's still much better to improve odds by sucking, when i said you can't suck your path toward great picks, and now they are ones who are doing demage control and telling people how being 2# worst or 6# worst isn't big deal?

In order to finish 6th Magic really didn't need to blow up whole roster. They were on that path regardless. Now they have same odds and no good players in sight

Anyway good win guys, this G league royal rumbles will help us builg great winning culture and Cole Anthony and Mo Bamba will lead us to championships

Damn it, forgot green font *srugs*

Let’s hold our horses here.

What Orlando rolled out tonight was bad. However, Detroit was abysmal.

Their FO beat ours in the tank game behind the scenes despite a decent effort.

With Evan, AG, and Vucevic we wouldn’t be anywhere near the conversation against a team like Detroit in a tank war. We’d be on a treadmill with zero hope and discussing the decision between Zaire Williams and Isaiah Jackson come lotto time.

We would still finish 6th, 7th or 8th due injuries...
Now we will finish 6th just with virtually no talent

We had virtually no talent last month.

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[axl_c_cool]

I get everything you have said and the floor is my only concern. Also in a draft system where the top 4 get 12% odds at the 1st pick, a 7% drop on the top 4 is very significant in my opinion.

As for it being out of their control, the 2 silly wins with Otto Potter Jr, then couple Bacon and Ennis have got, that is in our control and costing us. OKC have legitimately put together that cannot compete, we have brought guys in who can score a little and are put in situations to succeed, despite not having a future on the team.

Do you guys remember when Clifford was forced to put in the young line in the 4th? There is no reason management can't tell the coaching staff they want to see a specific line up for analysis.

Not aimed at you, appreciate your response and opinion. While it's not the end of the world, we have taken completely unnecessary risks for no reasons. It's been 17 years since we drafted a franchise player, and we are blowing the chance to now, in my opinion

I have to say mate, isn't the point in the Bulls pick to try and find the Booker, SGA, player?

Ideally, yes, or I can see it actually used in a trade for another young player on a different team or attempting to move up, but we aren't guaranteed to have that pick as of yet. Don't want to count our chickens before they hatch.

The whole point in blowing up the roster and tanking was to make sure we have our best shot at a franchise changing player, and we seem to have blown it. A week ago we were likely to get the 2nd worst record, now 5th or 6th, that's a disaster I'm afraid.

With all due respect, these are the kinds of notions I am trying to dispel with my posts. We haven't blown it as badly in terms of our ability to get into the top four (we've went from 52% to 45%) by going from 2nd/3rd to 5th, which is a 7% decrease. A decent decrease but not monumental.. but we absolutely have made it way more likely we get the 6th, 7th, or 8th pick instead of the 5th and 6th being the most likely previously (as of right now).

I really don't know why people are getting mad at me (not you) for stating these numbers, but I am trying to hammer home the point that if your ultimate worry is not getting a franchise player, there's only a decrease of 7% (as of right now, it can change positively or negatively) - but if the worry is our floor.. those percentages are more drastic and cause for concern.

And on the flipside, we have no control over any of this. Whether the kids play well, whether another team plays worse, how the lotto numbers hit for us, if we make the correct pick... it all is out of our hands.

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[Knightro]

It's hilarious that same posters were claiming that we needed to blow up roster to improve lottery odds, yet now claim that seeding isn't that important because draft reformed. Ding dong reality calls, draft was reformed 2 years ago.

This is misrepresenting what most people are saying.

Had the Magic kept all their veterans and played to grind out every last win they possibly could, they’d be a lot closer to the Wizards than they would be to the Pistons.

The difference between 11th worst and 6th worst is much wider than 6th worst and 3rd worst.

Besides, it’s certainly not out of the question that the Magic lose out and still finish with the third worst or tied for the third worst record anyway.

[thelead]

First i want to say i am annoyed by the win. I read on Pistons board they thought they would win with their great rookies even if we had Isaac and Fultz... bunch of clowns. Having said that i agree with Knightro. You dont tank to improve your floor, you tank to improve your ceiling and that barely changed. What matters is getting into top 4, i dont have Kuminga in my top 6 even.
In reality all picks outside maybe Cade doesnt change our future by that much. There is no surefire lead ball handler. Giddey is second after Cunningham and he is also very flawed. Green shouldnt dribble the ball much unless you want to fight for play in like Lavine Bulls. Hampton make better reads than him.

If the Magic get Moody instead of Green, I do not see a big drop-off difference.

..

This could be the making of a 2 decade long signature

[basketballRob]

Pretty bad when our second string basically beat Detroit's first team.



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[drsd]

Let’s hold our horses here.

What Orlando rolled out tonight was bad. However, Detroit was abysmal.

Just finished the game. So Detroit is down six with a minute left and stops playing. It's a two-possession, winnable game and they quit?

The Pistons should be finned for the lack of trying-to-win over the end of the 4th quarter. That was embarrassing.

..

[pepe1991]

It's hilarious that same posters were claiming that we needed to blow up roster to improve lottery odds, yet now claim that seeding isn't that important because draft reformed. Ding dong reality calls, draft was reformed 2 years ago.

This is misrepresenting what most people are saying.

Had the Magic kept all their veterans and played to grind out every last win they possibly could, they’d be a lot closer to the Wizards than they would be to the Pistons.

The difference between 11th worst and 6th worst is much wider than 6th worst and 3rd worst.

Besides, it’s certainly not out of the question that the Magic lose out and still finish with the third worst or tied for the third worst record anyway.

11th worst team in nba are Wizards sitting at 30-35. We never had any realistic chance getting that many wins.
Just throwing hyperboles on me won't fly with me.
At apsolute best, by today's standings,we were never going to be any better than 8th worst record. Now, with no talent, we are 6th. What an achivment

Besides, it’s certainly not out of the question that the Magic lose out and still finish with the third worst or tied for the third worst record anyway.

Sure. Just look that amazing string of victories OKC and Cavs are having.
OKC lost 18 of last 19 games.
Cavs lost 9 of last 10, and their remaining schedule is: Suns, Blazers, Dallas, Dallas again, Indiana, Boston,Washington and Brooklyn.

There is basically no chance whatsoever that they will win again this season.

OKC plays Kings 3 times, Warriors twice and Utah. Kings and Warriors can still get in playin and won't lose. Utah's third stringers are better than OKC starters, so they also won't be winning again.

[chrbal]

Thanks for helping us lose, although most should go to Diallo.

Didn’t watch this one, but did Harris or Carter get hurt?

[IllMagic04]

Looking at the schedules we are probally going to fall to 6th odds. It is what it is. I was as pro tank as anyone in the past. We got a guy who wasnt even in the NBA starting and playing big mins. Another guy who wasnt in the NBA playing big minutes off the bench. We got rookies out there playing big minutes. And even one of our rookies in Okeke is out. Our best player in Ross is out. MCW is out. What else can we do? Do you want to sit Bamba abd Cole? Do you wanna sit Hampton? You could make the case of sitting Bacon but I thought we all think he sucks? Him being in should help right? Sometimes you gotta tip your hat to the better tank. We'll see them on lottery day.

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[jonbob17]

But we went from 80% to 47% this week on the top 5 likelihood... how are the odds 'still good'?

With all due respect, so what?

The vast majority of people would be furious if the Magic were picking 5th anyway because they'd be unlikely to land one of the three guys everyone wants. I don't see many folks banging the drum for Kuminga.

It's top 4 or bust and always has been for pretty much everyone.

I am pissed as anyone about winning three of the last 4, but this is probably the right attitude.

As far as I am concerned there is a tier 1 (Cade), and a tier 2 and then everyone else. Tier 2 guys have plenty of upside, but a huge amount of risk as well. Suggs floor is pretty high, while also having substantial upside, tier 1b maybe. Some days I can be talked into tier 2 bleeding into the rest of the lottery.

The idea of picking 7th or worse is just awful, but with the how favorable the lottery is to the non-worst teams, is just the way it is. The idea of Chicago keeping their pick while we fall out of top 4, cringe....

We are going to need some luck, and we need to win the lottery, Our odds are just about the same as getting a top 4. 5-10 book are all over the place imo, we might still get our guy if we are lower, given how they have picked in the past. Hopefully we get two rolls of the dice this year.

[GelbeWand09]

Looking at the schedules we are probally going to fall to 6th odds. It is what it is. I was as pro tank as anyone in the past. We got a guy who wasnt even in the NBA starting and playing big mins. Another guy who wasnt in the NBA playing big minutes off the bench. We got rookies out there playing big minutes. And even one of our rookies in Okeke is out. Our best player in Ross is out. MCW is out. What else can we do? Do you want to sit Bamba abd Cole? Do you wanna sit Hampton? You could make the case of sitting Bacon but I thought we all think he sucks? Him being in should help right? Sometimes you gotta tip your hat to the better tank. We'll see them on lottery day.

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Keep the scrubs we had who showed they wont ruin the tank ?

[Bergmaniac]

Even the scrubs in the NBA have hot nights not that rarely, that's why the tanking race is such a crapshoot. OKC scored 120 against Phoenix just a few days ago and almost won. Dwayne Bacon looks like a great tank commander on most nights but his hot shooting helped us win a few games we had no business winning. We just signed a player who 99% of us haven't heard of, played him for 31 minutes and he did great against all odds.

Maybe we should follow Cavs' example and bring a vet who's been out of the league for years out of retirement for the last games of the season, like they did with Varejao, and play him 30 MPG. Is Jameer available? Afflalo? Big Baby Davis?