Better Supprting Cast - Kobe's '06 Lakers or Curry's '21 Warriors?

[sikma42]

The thing is Kobe made his teammates look worse than they are, Curry is the opposite... so not sure

I don't think you watched that team.

[Optms]

People are overrating Odom and underrating Draymond+Wiggins.

Wiggins is trash though. Tough call.

[xinxin]

The 06 lakers team by far..


They just overachieved, thus taking the Suns to a 7th


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[Mamba81p]

I think the '21 Warriors cast are better. The biggest difference between the two teams though is that the Lakers knew what they had to do to get wins going into the season - give the ball to Kobe and let him score. The Warriors didn't really figure that out until April.

Lakers had a similar issue as well. Phil tried to play Kwame and Mihm together in the first part of the season and the team struggled, especially Odom. Once they put Cook/Walton in the starting lineup Lamar played much better and they carried that into the playoffs.

Warriors might be able to do something similar, they have a great coach and a top 20 all time player, so who knows, maybe they can make noise in the playoffs as well.

[TroubleS0me]

lol what are trying to say with this thread?

[Lockdown504090]

I think the '21 Warriors cast are better. The biggest difference between the two teams though is that the Lakers knew what they had to do to get wins going into the season - give the ball to Kobe and let him score. The Warriors didn't really figure that out until April.

Lakers had a similar issue as well. Phil tried to play Kwame and Mihm together in the first part of the season and the team struggled, especially Odom. Once they put Cook/Walton in the starting lineup Lamar played much better and they carried that into the playoffs.

Warriors might be able to do something similar, they have a great coach and a top 20 all time player, so who knows, maybe they can make noise in the playoffs as well.

I have been saying for months, I am praying to God that I get to see 1-8 utah v gsw. You are going to see the wackiest defenses imaginable to stop curry based on what they had to do to contain harden.

[Mamba81p]

The thing is that Kerr was in development mode rather than winning as many games as possible. He said countless times this year winning games wasn’t a priority.

yeah, the Warriors have a different situation. They have Klay Thompson coming back next year, a top prospect in Wiseman and possibly another top draft pick coming this year. Lakers didn't have anything.

[WarriorGM]

People still underrating Curry and making up all sorts of reasons to explain his success. When will they ever learn?

[homecourtloss]

That Lakers team without Kobe was historically bad. The Warriors have a significantly better supporting cast next to Steph.

2006 Lakers without Kobe: -8.0 per 100 possessions
2021 Warriors without Curry: -5.6 per 100 possessions

[cupcakesnake]

I like the Draymond vs. Odom comp. Similar as playmakers operating in the frontcourt, and by far Kobe/Curry's best teammate in these years. Odom had way way more scoring punch, while Draymond is clearly a superior defender (Odom was solid on defense in my memory).

Golden State has flashier guys in terms of scoring. But the book is sort of wrote on Wiggins and Oubre being damaging players. Despite the sort of better looking play of Wiggins in Golden State, he's still a fundamentally inefficient volume scorer, and one of the worst off-ball defenders of all time. JTA is more fun than most of the Lakers backups.

Smush and Kwame are punchlines, but the 2006 Lakers were an average defensive team. Kwame was a decent defender for most of his career as a big strong body with solid mobility. Offensively, he was miserable as a counterpart for a guard, So frustrating with those stone hands and general lack of confidence. Mihm, Brian Cook and Luke Walton made for a decent frontcourt rotation.

Rookie Bynum vs. Rookie Wiseman deserves a mention!

I dunno, it's a wash. Both terrible supporting casts outside Odom and Draymond. Defensive edge to Lakers, offensive edge to Golden State (I guess).

[realball]

I would say Kobe had the worse team, but Curry is playing in a tougher conference.

[Warriors Analyst]

It’s close between talent.bigger change is NBA meta game.

The major difference is the 2006 style of play was far more favorable to the Lakers than the 2021 style of play is for the Warriors

In 2006 the fastest paced team took 96 possessions and the slowest 86

In 2021 the fastest paced team takes 104 possessions and the slowest 97. The slowest team today plays faster than the fastest team in 2006.

The means if you are a bad team today it means you are playing 10% more possessions. When you are at a talent gap you want fewer possessions to increase variance and keep games tighter.

In addition the slower pace affects MpG. Kobe played 41 minutes/game and Odom 40. The league leader this year is Randall at 37 and he plays for the slowest team in the league.

If Curry played at a slower pace and got 6 more minutes/game that’s 6 less minutes a complete scrub is on the floor. Likewise, Kobe and Odom could keep god awful players on the bench.

Also in general talent in league today is wayyyyy higher than 2006 nba which had some of the worst talent in recent history.

I think Kobe’s teammates were worse in a vacuum while Stephs teammates are worse for the reality of the league they played in

This is a really good post and sums up something I’ve struggled to articulate. To add to that, while some of the Warriors guys who were bad this year — Paschall, Oubre, Wiseman — might have some useful skills, they weren’t well utilized and/or they overlapped significantly with other guys on the roster. In a vacuum Oubre shouldn’t have been as negatively impactful as he was, but he and Wiggins and Bazemore and Paschall all have such similar flaws that their negative traits all bleed into each kthers

[clyde21]

Draymond even now is a more valuable player than Odom was then. Odom had higher upside but was a wildly variable performer. Then you have Wiggins, who can at least score sometimes when Curry is on the bench, and has actually turned into a good defender. Looney is a sort of solid big. And you have Oubre who in theory is a solid 3nD wing.

fwiw, if you took Kobe and Curry off their respective teams and had them play each other in a horrible seven game series, I'd expect the Warriors to win more than half of those in 100 simulations.

it has to be relative to the league tho. Better question is if you took Kobe and Curry off and had them replay their respective seasons a 100 time who would have the better record

That's fair. I think Kevin Pelton actually has a model that does this, that's how he does the preseason predictions. Maybe it can be done somewhat reliably in 2K. I also think it depends on Kerr and his usage of the motion offense, his drive to win games vs develop, etc. I think a Wiggins/Draymond/Oubre/Wiseman team playing with intention is bad, but not Houston Rockets bad. Maybe even close to this year's Pelicans. I think Odom/Walton/Smush/Mihm is Houston Rockets bad and maybe even OKC bad.

don't know if I want to get into a match of who had a worse cast, clearly both were terrible, but curious to the inclusion of Wiseman there. dude was like the worst player in the entire NBA for his usage/minutes, it was one of the most destructive rookie campaigns I've ever seen tbh, he would undoubtedly be one of the worst if not worst player on the Rockets as well.

right now all what Wiseman is is a dude that was drafted 2nd overall, but on the court he's one of the worst players in the entire NBA pretty clearly (obviously he's young and that will change, but that has nothing to do with what happened this year).

[levon]

it has to be relative to the league tho. Better question is if you took Kobe and Curry off and had them replay their respective seasons a 100 time who would have the better record

That's fair. I think Kevin Pelton actually has a model that does this, that's how he does the preseason predictions. Maybe it can be done somewhat reliably in 2K. I also think it depends on Kerr and his usage of the motion offense, his drive to win games vs develop, etc. I think a Wiggins/Draymond/Oubre/Wiseman team playing with intention is bad, but not Houston Rockets bad. Maybe even close to this year's Pelicans. I think Odom/Walton/Smush/Mihm is Houston Rockets bad and maybe even OKC bad.

don't know if I want to get into a match of who had a worse cast, clearly both were terrible, but curious to the inclusion of Wiseman there. dude was like the worst player in the entire NBA for his usage/minutes, it was one of the most destructive rookie campaigns I've ever seen tbh, he would undoubtedly be one of the worst if not worst player on the Rockets as well.

right now all what Wiseman is is a dude that was drafted 2nd overall, but on the court he's one of the worst players in the entire NBA pretty clearly (obviously he's young and that will change, but that has nothing to do with what happened this year).

I think that Wiseman could look better than he has so far if Kerr approached the season without having Curry. I feel like their (Kerr's and Wiseman's) personalities/systems/timelines haven't meshed well so far. It's kind of a bizarre situation. I think he's at the very least more talented than Chris Mihm.

[clyde21]

That's fair. I think Kevin Pelton actually has a model that does this, that's how he does the preseason predictions. Maybe it can be done somewhat reliably in 2K. I also think it depends on Kerr and his usage of the motion offense, his drive to win games vs develop, etc. I think a Wiggins/Draymond/Oubre/Wiseman team playing with intention is bad, but not Houston Rockets bad. Maybe even close to this year's Pelicans. I think Odom/Walton/Smush/Mihm is Houston Rockets bad and maybe even OKC bad.

don't know if I want to get into a match of who had a worse cast, clearly both were terrible, but curious to the inclusion of Wiseman there. dude was like the worst player in the entire NBA for his usage/minutes, it was one of the most destructive rookie campaigns I've ever seen tbh, he would undoubtedly be one of the worst if not worst player on the Rockets as well.

right now all what Wiseman is is a dude that was drafted 2nd overall, but on the court he's one of the worst players in the entire NBA pretty clearly (obviously he's young and that will change, but that has nothing to do with what happened this year).

I think that Wiseman could look better than he has so far if Kerr approached the season without having Curry. I feel like their (Kerr's and Wiseman's) personalities/systems/timelines haven't meshed well so far. It's kind of a bizarre situation. I think he's at the very least more talented than Chris Mihm.

i mean, he's more talented than Looney, doesn't mean he's a better bball player at this point.

and I'd argue the opposite, Kerr went out of his way to try and develop Wiseman, gave him over 20mins per game and a 24% usage when he did nothing to earn it, in fact it came at the expense of the overarching offense and Steph/Dray...dude was so destructive to our offense and scheme this year that it was a legit sigh of relief anytime he went off the floor.

either way just not sure how you can include him in some hypothetical lineup to prove your point for the team Steph had this year. dude was by almost every category and measure one of the worst in the entire league.

[levon]

don't know if I want to get into a match of who had a worse cast, clearly both were terrible, but curious to the inclusion of Wiseman there. dude was like the worst player in the entire NBA for his usage/minutes, it was one of the most destructive rookie campaigns I've ever seen tbh, he would undoubtedly be one of the worst if not worst player on the Rockets as well.

right now all what Wiseman is is a dude that was drafted 2nd overall, but on the court he's one of the worst players in the entire NBA pretty clearly (obviously he's young and that will change, but that has nothing to do with what happened this year).

I think that Wiseman could look better than he has so far if Kerr approached the season without having Curry. I feel like their (Kerr's and Wiseman's) personalities/systems/timelines haven't meshed well so far. It's kind of a bizarre situation. I think he's at the very least more talented than Chris Mihm.

i mean, he's more talented than Looney, doesn't mean he's a better bball player at this point.

and I'd argue the opposite, Kerr went out of his way to try and develop Wiseman, gave him over 20mins per game and a 24% usage when he did nothing to earn it, in fact it came at the expense of the overarching offense and Steph/Dray...dude was so destructive to our offense and scheme this year that it was a legit sigh of relief anytime he went off the floor.

either way just not sure how you can include him in some hypothetical lineup to prove your point for the team Steph had this year. dude was by almost every category and measure one of the worst in the entire league.

okay, well you're free to count him as a negative then and I still think the Warriors 4 is on paper more capable than the Lakers 4 I listed

also, Wiseman's gotten an unfair shake. rookies suck ass coming out of the gate all of the time and find their strides later. sampling the first half of a rookie's career in a pandemic season where they're likely not practicing as often is whack. Anthony Edwards looked like a bust too but look at him now. you've watched more Wiseman so I'll defer, but I think there was just an unfortunate combination of circumstances that makes him look like the worst player in the league, and he's clearly capable of way more in his first year

[Rainwater]

The thing is that Kerr was in development mode rather than winning as many games as possible. He said countless times this year winning games wasn’t a priority.

I disagree, I believe Kerr is saying this for the media. The mere fact that they benched Wiseman, their young player with the most potential, instead of allowing him to play through his mistakes and the fact they are fighting for a play in game says otherwise.

[clyde21]

I think that Wiseman could look better than he has so far if Kerr approached the season without having Curry. I feel like their (Kerr's and Wiseman's) personalities/systems/timelines haven't meshed well so far. It's kind of a bizarre situation. I think he's at the very least more talented than Chris Mihm.

i mean, he's more talented than Looney, doesn't mean he's a better bball player at this point.

and I'd argue the opposite, Kerr went out of his way to try and develop Wiseman, gave him over 20mins per game and a 24% usage when he did nothing to earn it, in fact it came at the expense of the overarching offense and Steph/Dray...dude was so destructive to our offense and scheme this year that it was a legit sigh of relief anytime he went off the floor.

either way just not sure how you can include him in some hypothetical lineup to prove your point for the team Steph had this year. dude was by almost every category and measure one of the worst in the entire league.

okay, well you're free to count him as a negative then and I still think the Warriors 4 is on paper more capable than the Lakers 4 I listed

also, Wiseman's gotten an unfair shake. rookies suck ass coming out of the gate all of the time and find their strides later. sampling the first half of a rookie's career in a pandemic season where they're likely not practicing as often is whack. Anthony Edwards looked like a bust too but look at him now. you've watched more Wiseman so I'll defer, but I think there was just an unfortunate combination of circumstances that makes him look like the worst player in the league, and he's clearly capable of way more in his first year

hard to draw up a better situation for any rookie to be in, surrounded by vets like Steph/Dray who went out of their way to include him into the team and offense, got plenty of minutes and actions he didn't deserve, didn't have to really compete for his position, a coach that abandoned his system to run plays specifically for him, etc....but ok.

maybe in some other iteration Wiseman could've looked better, but maybe you can make that same argument about some of those Lakers players as well, we'll never know.

[clyde21]

The thing is that Kerr was in development mode rather than winning as many games as possible. He said countless times this year winning games wasn’t a priority.

I disagree, I believe Kerr is saying this for the media. The mere fact that they benched Wiseman, their young player with the most potential, instead of allowing him to play through his mistakes and the fact they are fighting for a play in game says otherwise.

lol, the only rooks that got more usage than Wiseman are Melo and Antman, otherwise Wiseman got >20 mins a night and on 24% usage, despite being overly destructive to this team every minute he was on the court.

Kerr abandoned his own scheme, at the expense of Steph and Dray, to get Wiseman looks to get him more comfortable...but it was pretty clear if we were to have a chance at the POs we couldn't do that anymore...that's how bad Wiseman was. just look at the On/Off numbers when Loon was on the floor vs. Wiseman.

[dhsilv2]

I like the Draymond vs. Odom comp. Similar as playmakers operating in the frontcourt, and by far Kobe/Curry's best teammate in these years. Odom had way way more scoring punch, while Draymond is clearly a superior defender (Odom was solid on defense in my memory).

Golden State has flashier guys in terms of scoring. But the book is sort of wrote on Wiggins and Oubre being damaging players. Despite the sort of better looking play of Wiggins in Golden State, he's still a fundamentally inefficient volume scorer, and one of the worst off-ball defenders of all time. JTA is more fun than most of the Lakers backups.

Smush and Kwame are punchlines, but the 2006 Lakers were an average defensive team. Kwame was a decent defender for most of his career as a big strong body with solid mobility. Offensively, he was miserable as a counterpart for a guard, So frustrating with those stone hands and general lack of confidence. Mihm, Brian Cook and Luke Walton made for a decent frontcourt rotation.

Rookie Bynum vs. Rookie Wiseman deserves a mention!

I dunno, it's a wash. Both terrible supporting casts outside Odom and Draymond. Defensive edge to Lakers, offensive edge to Golden State (I guess).

Oddly the warriors are the better defensive team and the lakers better offensively, and by pretty big margins. So unless you think Curry's the better defender here or Kobe the better offensive player, I'd tend to say the data suggests the opposite. And given Odom was a legit second option (better as a 3rd) and really Curry doesn't have one, it isn't that surprising.

Also - injuries, lakers were much healthier.