What is Jayson Tatum's ceiling?

zoyathedestroya · Post #1361 » by **zoyathedestroya** » Thu May 20, 2021 10:08 am

Among Celtics players, I believe only Bird has more with FOUR for his entire career. Tatum did it in a span of 40 days.

31to6 · Post #1362 » by **31to6** » Thu May 20, 2021 1:32 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:

Read on Twitter

Among Celtics players, I believe only Bird has more with FOUR for his entire career. Tatum did it in a span of 40 days.

It’s a juiced ball era, but yeah.

MVP is clearly moving into “on the table” with Tatum’s future.

Which Celtics have been league MVP?
Cousy
Russell (4 or 5x?)
Cowens
Bird (3x)

That’s it, right?

My greatest Celtic list goes 1. Russell 2. Bird 3. Hondo (I know, exculpatory, I know..)
If JT stays healthy and stays a Celtic and keeps getting better he can get on that list. Not something I would’ve expected to say when we drafted him!

BK_2020 · Post #1363 » by **BK_2020** » Thu May 20, 2021 1:35 pm

Pace was higher in the 80s and Bird averaged 4 minutes more per game.

Post #1364 » by **Bleeding Green** » Thu May 20, 2021 4:41 pm

Yeah but no one knew that 3>2 until about 4 years ago.

DarkAzcura · Post #1365 » by **DarkAzcura** » Thu May 20, 2021 4:48 pm

31to6 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:

Read on Twitter

Among Celtics players, I believe only Bird has more with FOUR for his entire career. Tatum did it in a span of 40 days.

It’s a juiced ball era, but yeah.

MVP is clearly moving into “on the table” with Tatum’s future.

Which Celtics have been league MVP?
Cousy
Russell (4 or 5x?)
Cowens
Bird (3x)

That’s it, right?

My greatest Celtic list goes 1. Russell 2. Bird 3. Hondo (I know, exculpatory, I know..)
If JT stays healthy and stays a Celtic and keeps getting better he can get on that list. Not something I would’ve expected to say when we drafted him!

To be fair, the 80s were pretty juiced as well. The NBA is back to a bit of a normalcy of pace and rate of shots the last 5-7 years.

Fencer reregistered · Post #1366 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Thu May 20, 2021 8:25 pm

BK_2020 wrote:Pace was higher in the 80s and Bird averaged 4 minutes more per game.

Bird also played with two other MVP-class players (Parish peaked at top 4 in MVP voting, IIRC), two former Finals MVPs, and one of the top outside shooters of the era (I think Ainge spent some years as top-3 in made 3-pters).

31to6 · Post #1367 » by **31to6** » Thu May 20, 2021 9:58 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:Pace was higher in the 80s and Bird averaged 4 minutes more per game.

Bird also played with two other MVP-class players (Parish peaked at top 4 in MVP voting, IIRC), two former Finals MVPs, and one of the top outside shooters of the era (I think Ainge spent some years as top-3 in made 3-pters).

I’m definitely interested in era-adjusted stats if they exist (am not aware of a source for them), but figure when you’re really trying to compare careers across eras you have to go with such “timeless” metrics as MVPs, All-NBAs, All-Star appearances, and titles.

BK_2020 · Post #1368 » by **BK_2020** » Fri May 21, 2021 12:24 pm

I don't think anyone can seriously say that Robert Parish and even McHale was ever MVP-class.

Fencer reregistered · Post #1369 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Fri May 21, 2021 1:43 pm

BK_2020 wrote:I don't think anyone can seriously say that Robert Parish and even McHale was ever MVP-class.

In fairness, I don't think anybody ever gave McHale first-place votes for MVP.

Parish got a few, however.

celtics543 · Post #1370 » by **celtics543** » Fri May 21, 2021 1:51 pm

BK_2020 wrote:I don't think anyone can seriously say that Robert Parish and even McHale was ever MVP-class.

Check out McHale's 1987 season. He was 4th in MVP voting and even Bird says that McHale could have been the MVP that year.

BK_2020 · Post #1371 » by **BK_2020** » Fri May 21, 2021 1:54 pm

celtics543 wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:I don't think anyone can seriously say that Robert Parish and even McHale was ever MVP-class.

Check out McHale's 1987 season. He was 4th in MVP voting and even Bird says that McHale could have been the MVP that year.

You mean the season where MJ literally scored a thousand points more than McHale?

celtics543 · Post #1372 » by **celtics543** » Fri May 21, 2021 1:59 pm

BK_2020 wrote:
celtics543 wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:I don't think anyone can seriously say that Robert Parish and even McHale was ever MVP-class.

Check out McHale's 1987 season. He was 4th in MVP voting and even Bird says that McHale could have been the MVP that year.

You mean the season where MJ literally scored a thousand points more than McHale?

I mean the season where McHale outscored the actual MVP, Magic Johnson. Is MVP class only the top 1 or 2? Then sure McHale was never MVP-class. I'm just saying that he peaked as a top 4 MVP candidate. That has to be considered MVP class for at least one season.

I'd also try to look past total points as your big metric. Pierce led the NBA in total points one year and he wasn't close to the MVP.

BK_2020 · Post #1373 » by **BK_2020** » Fri May 21, 2021 2:02 pm

THE Magic Johnson who had 12 assists and 6.3 rebounds per game to go along with 24 points while playing 3 fewer minutes? Yeah I think Magic was several levels better that season.

Not trying to put down McHale and Parish, but Parish straight up doesn't make the HoF and McHale would have a far harder time if they didn't play next to Bird.

31to6 · Post #1374 » by **31to6** » Fri May 21, 2021 4:42 pm

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1982.html#mvp (7th the year before)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1987.html

I agree both of these guys are legends partly because of Bird. Just like Pippen, Worthy, Klay, Kyrie, you name it.
But Larry no doubt doesn't regret getting to play next to them, either.

Post #1375 » by **Feed Your Head** » Fri May 21, 2021 8:36 pm

He’s not making all nba, so let’s hope that fuels him to come out and play aggressive as hell.

Fencer reregistered · Post #1376 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sat May 22, 2021 1:46 am

BK_2020 wrote:THE Magic Johnson who had 12 assists and 6.3 rebounds per game to go along with 24 points while playing 3 fewer minutes? Yeah I think Magic was several levels better that season.

Not trying to put down McHale and Parish, but Parish straight up doesn't make the HoF and McHale would have a far harder time if they didn't play next to Bird.

As noted above, Parish got multiple first=place votes for MVP. You're coming on too strong here.

Post #1377 » by **bisme37** » Mon May 24, 2021 4:25 pm

“The biggest thing that we wanted to focus on this offseason was getting downhill more, and that started with improving his posture, playing lower,” Hanlen told The Athletic. “Then the second thing was basically improving his angles. The third thing was improving his physicality. Early in the season, we didn’t really see that. But I think later on in the season, he’s realizing that those three things not only improve his finishing ability but also improve his ability to get to the line, which has helped him a ton.”

“Two years ago, we had the sidestep, and that became his bread and butter last year,” said Hanlen. “This year, a lot of guys are sitting on his sidestep. We still want to shoot a bunch of those. But instead of just taking those, sometimes instead of settling, you got to mix in the downhill drive so that you free yourself up for those sidesteps or you can get more driving opportunities.”

“Basically what we’re saying is be the first, be the one that initiates contact,” Hanlen said. “Get to them before they get to you is the teaching point that I use. If they get to you, they push you off your line. If you get to them, you determine the line.”

“Better posture means hips down, chin, chest up,” said Hanlen. “When you have your chest and chin up, it allows you to see the floor better, and being able to be in that posture allows you to also have more balance on your finishing.”

It shows up in Tatum’s finishing numbers, as he has gone from shooting 55.4 percent to 65.9 percent on shots within 5 feet, per NBA Stats. That trails only Giannis Antetokounmpo and LeBron James among non-bigs who took at least five shots at the rim per game. “I think a lot of that has to do with that he’s on balance more,” said Hanlen. “So he’s able to sidestep, Euro step, he’s able to play off for two feet more. He’s able to jump laterally around them. When you’re off balance, the natural thing to do is avoid a charge. Now he’s trying to finish.”

...

https://theathletic.com/2609137/2021/05/24/inside-jayson-tatums-journey-to-become-a-complete-offense?source=user-shared-article

3D Chess · Post #1378 » by **3D Chess** » Mon May 24, 2021 9:59 pm

bisme37 wrote:
It shows up in Tatum’s finishing numbers, as he has gone from shooting 55.4 percent to 65.9 percent on shots within 5 feet, per NBA Stats. That trails only Giannis Antetokounmpo and LeBron James among non-bigs who took at least five shots at the rim per game.
...

https://theathletic.com/2609137/2021/05/24/inside-jayson-tatums-journey-to-become-a-complete-offense?source=user-shared-article

That is an insane leap, and it feels like he can get better.

Post #1379 » by **Feed Your Head** » Mon May 24, 2021 10:24 pm

3D Chess wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
It shows up in Tatum’s finishing numbers, as he has gone from shooting 55.4 percent to 65.9 percent on shots within 5 feet, per NBA Stats. That trails only Giannis Antetokounmpo and LeBron James among non-bigs who took at least five shots at the rim per game.
...

https://theathletic.com/2609137/2021/05/24/inside-jayson-tatums-journey-to-become-a-complete-offense?source=user-shared-article

That is an insane leap, and it feels like he can get better.

People are so impatient, what he’s doing is pretty close to unprecedented for his age.

Just wait until it all comes together, the guy who was one of the best high volume ISO players in the league last year, the guy who was one of the best defenders in the league last season, the monster pull up from three threat, the elite finisher he’s become, what he’s shown the last few months as far as getting to the line, and the flashes of being a legitimate great playmaker for a forward. Even this year, he was in the 91st percentile in assist percentage for forwards.

There’s a real chance he comes out next season and puts up something stupid like 29/8/5 on a 60% TS, while being a monster on the other end of the court. A real offseason would be huge for him, which is why I hope he doesn’t play in the olympics, though I’d completely understand him wanting to play.

Ben-N1ce · Post #1380 » by **Ben-N1ce** » Mon May 24, 2021 11:00 pm

He'll always be able to score. Making the easy play and reading defenses generated plays for others is the next step and the hardest step. Most great ones always had great court vision and can see things ahead of time. Jaylen for sure is not remotely close to a natural at that. Tatum can improve a lot at that because he's merely average. He should have 4 assists a game like he does by default with his usage rate.