Moving Forward

[Scoot McGroot]

Maybe I'm off. But I'm not sure Toronto is going to agree with that value. Lamb really isn't that much of a positive so they are going Domas for Siakam and have to give up 7. Guessing the phone lines in Canada (or Tampa) would start cutting out at about that point.

Yes, maybe they hang up on us. Or maybe it's not that far fetched

I guess it depends on how much stock you put in the altercation between Siakam and Nick Nurse a while back

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2938043-report-pascal-siakam-got-personal-with-nick-nurse-during-heated-altercation.amp.html

It could be nothing, or it could fester into something irreparable. I don't follow the Raptors close enough to have an accurate enough picture of what's going on there

Either way, Domas is younger and has a much smaller contract than Siakam, so that automatically puts Domas way ahead of Siakam in terms of value, to me at least

Whether the gap between the two is #7 or not depends on how optimistic/pessimistic the Raptors are with his future with them

Meh. I doubt they’re going to overpay a lot just to move him if they’re bothered with him. They’ll shop him and see what they can get.

[8305]

What do we think of Kelly Oubre? He certainly fits the combo forward need. He’s a free agent so trade would have to go down post draft. Maybe Levert for a resigned Oubre?

[Tom White]

What do we think of Kelly Oubre? He certainly fits the combo forward need. He’s a free agent so trade would have to go down post draft. Maybe Levert for a resigned Oubre?

He's OK, but that is also the problem. We already have a bunch of players who are just OK players. Also, who do you then put into Levert's spot?

Kind of like just moving the furniture around.

[Scoot McGroot]

What do we think of Kelly Oubre? He certainly fits the combo forward need. He’s a free agent so trade would have to go down post draft. Maybe Levert for a resigned Oubre?

He's OK, but that is also the problem. We already have a bunch of players who are just OK players. Also, who do you then put into Levert's spot?

Kind of like just moving the furniture around.

Oh, Oubre is not a good player. He’s ok enough. He’s definitely not in a Levert category (and I wouldn’t count myself a huge Levert lover). Realistically, in terms of value and salary, he’s a Lamb straight up kind of guy. Like, I’d prefer Oubre for the positional flexibility, but I’m not sure he’s better than Lamb on court.

[Scoot McGroot]

What do we think of Kelly Oubre? He certainly fits the combo forward need. He’s a free agent so trade would have to go down post draft. Maybe Levert for a resigned Oubre?

He's OK, but that is also the problem. We already have a bunch of players who are just OK players. Also, who do you then put into Levert's spot?

Kind of like just moving the furniture around.

Oh, Oubre is not a good player. He’s ok enough. He’s definitely not in a Levert category (and I wouldn’t count myself a huge Levert lover). Realistically, in terms of value and salary, he’s a Lamb straight up kind of guy. Like, I’d prefer Oubre for the positional flexibility, but I’m not sure he’s better than Lamb on court.

I read it at first as Olynyk, and thought “I HATE THE GUY” but I’d probably like him if he were on my team.

[Tom White]

I read it at first as Olynyk.......

Now that is funny, because I made the same mistake at first. Maybe that says as much about our thoughts on Oubre as anything else we might say.

[Wizop]

I read it at first as Olynyk, and thought “I HATE THE GUY” but I’d probably like him if he were on my team.

three guys I disrespect are Olynyk and the Morris twins but any of the three would make us a better team. we could use a dog.

[boomershadow]

What I want is an athletic wing defender that can come off the bench and do a serviceable job on the killer wings of the league, whether that's a 4, 3, or 2 idc.

At those positions, we have Sabonis, Levert, Brogdon, and Warren. They all land somewhere in the range between serviceable in a good scheme to just plain poor. But there are no George Hills or Paul George's in that group. Not even a Solomon Hill really. We need at least one more player besides Myles who can be above average for their spot and be a foundation piece for the while defense.

Justin Holliday is a good player especially at his salary and where we picked him up from, but he isnt supposed to be the guy you stick on the other team's best offensive player night in and night out.

[Scoot McGroot]

What I want is an athletic wing defender that can come off the bench and do a serviceable job on the killer wings of the league, whether that's a 4, 3, or 2 idc.

I mean, that’s Justin Though, he’s more of the Beal type defender instead of the massive wing like a Paul George. The only guy in the league that can really guard all of those guys is probably an OG Anunoby?

At those positions, we have Sabonis, Levert, Brogdon, and Warren. They all land somewhere in the range between serviceable in a good scheme to just plain poor. But there are no George Hills or Paul George's in that group. Not even a Solomon Hill really. We need at least one more player besides Myles who can be above average for their spot and be a foundation piece for the while defense.

Justin Holliday is a good player especially at his salary and where we picked him up from, but he isnt supposed to be the guy you stick on the other team's best offensive player night in and night out.

Sure. He’s definitely supposed to be more of the bench guy that plays 25ish minutes per night. But the type of guy you’re asking for is a max salary player. For the bench, you have to hope that a combo of Justin and Oshae can cover most of those body types from 2-4 situationally.


But really. I’m all in on the OG train. If we deal with Toronto, I don’t want Siakam. I want OG. He’s a terrific defender, and rated out as one of the most versatile defenders in the league, in terms of time spent defending each position on the court.

[Topofthekey]

What do we think of Kelly Oubre? He certainly fits the combo forward need. He’s a free agent so trade would have to go down post draft. Maybe Levert for a resigned Oubre?

You do not want Oubre anywhere near our roster

[Topofthekey]

What do we think of Kelly Oubre? He certainly fits the combo forward need. He’s a free agent so trade would have to go down post draft. Maybe Levert for a resigned Oubre?

He's OK, but that is also the problem. We already have a bunch of players who are just OK players. Also, who do you then put into Levert's spot?

Kind of like just moving the furniture around.

Oh, Oubre is not a good player. He’s ok enough. He’s definitely not in a Levert category (and I wouldn’t count myself a huge Levert lover). Realistically, in terms of value and salary, he’s a Lamb straight up kind of guy. Like, I’d prefer Oubre for the positional flexibility, but I’m not sure he’s better than Lamb on court.

I take Lamb over Oubre 10 out of 10 times

Oubre has no basketball IQ, zero situational awareness, and is mostly preoccupied with getting dunks so that he can flex after

[Topofthekey]

What I want is an athletic wing defender that can come off the bench and do a serviceable job on the killer wings of the league, whether that's a 4, 3, or 2 idc.

I mean, that’s Justin Though, he’s more of the Beal type defender instead of the massive wing like a Paul George. The only guy in the league that can really guard all of those guys is probably an OG Anunoby?

At those positions, we have Sabonis, Levert, Brogdon, and Warren. They all land somewhere in the range between serviceable in a good scheme to just plain poor. But there are no George Hills or Paul George's in that group. Not even a Solomon Hill really. We need at least one more player besides Myles who can be above average for their spot and be a foundation piece for the while defense.

Justin Holliday is a good player especially at his salary and where we picked him up from, but he isnt supposed to be the guy you stick on the other team's best offensive player night in and night out.

Sure. He’s definitely supposed to be more of the bench guy that plays 25ish minutes per night. But the type of guy you’re asking for is a max salary player. For the bench, you have to hope that a combo of Justin and Oshae can cover most of those body types from 2-4 situationally.


But really. I’m all in on the OG train. If we deal with Toronto, I don’t want Siakam. I want OG. He’s a terrific defender, and rated out as one of the most versatile defenders in the league, in terms of time spent defending each position on the court.

A cheaper option would be Robert Covington, though I don't think Blazers are looking to trade him, at least not for what I am willing to offer

Miles Bridges could be interesting as well

Zach Lavine has the size, length, and athleticism to be a good defender. I would have loved to see us giving him a Dan Burke power up, if Dan Burke was still part of the coaching team. Even so, I still maintain that Lavine can be a better player than he is now, if he gets the chance to play for a better team than Bulls. I actually think he has more or less maxed out of potential on offense, and it's at the defensive end where he still has untapped potential

But yes, OG is one of the closest to being the wing version of Myles Turner

[Scoot McGroot]

What I want is an athletic wing defender that can come off the bench and do a serviceable job on the killer wings of the league, whether that's a 4, 3, or 2 idc.

I mean, that’s Justin Though, he’s more of the Beal type defender instead of the massive wing like a Paul George. The only guy in the league that can really guard all of those guys is probably an OG Anunoby?

At those positions, we have Sabonis, Levert, Brogdon, and Warren. They all land somewhere in the range between serviceable in a good scheme to just plain poor. But there are no George Hills or Paul George's in that group. Not even a Solomon Hill really. We need at least one more player besides Myles who can be above average for their spot and be a foundation piece for the while defense.

Justin Holliday is a good player especially at his salary and where we picked him up from, but he isnt supposed to be the guy you stick on the other team's best offensive player night in and night out.

Sure. He’s definitely supposed to be more of the bench guy that plays 25ish minutes per night. But the type of guy you’re asking for is a max salary player. For the bench, you have to hope that a combo of Justin and Oshae can cover most of those body types from 2-4 situationally.


But really. I’m all in on the OG train. If we deal with Toronto, I don’t want Siakam. I want OG. He’s a terrific defender, and rated out as one of the most versatile defenders in the league, in terms of time spent defending each position on the court.

A cheaper option would be Robert Covington, though I don't think Blazers are looking to trade him, at least not for what I am willing to offer

I don’t think Covington will be cheap, but cheaper than OG, sure. My only issue is that Covington isn’t really a good on ball, or man, defender. He’s a guy who creates disruption in the passing lanes and in motion. That’s good, for sure, but he’s not the on ball defender that he has a reputation for.

Miles Bridges could be interesting as well

Yeah, he’s a real solid strong big wing or combo forward that could offer a lot for us that we lack.

Zach Lavine has the size, length, and athleticism to be a good defender. I would have loved to see us giving him a Dan Burke power up, if Dan Burke was still part of the coaching team. Even so, I still maintain that Lavine can be a better player than he is now, if he gets the chance to play for a better team than Bulls. I actually think he has more or less maxed out of potential on offense, and it's at the defensive end where he still has untapped potential

I mean, he can’t get much worse defensively, but I don’t know that there’s a willingness, knowledge, or form to be that. I would not expect Lavine to ever be a neutral defender, at this pace.

But yes, OG is one of the closest to being the wing version of Myles Turner

OG is just such a great all around defender. Nothing as flashy as Myles’ rim protection, but he can guard 4 to 5 positions all over the court.

[Topofthekey]

Reminder for everyone, for the 4 games that Warren played this season, Pacers went 3-1

Not saying that the return of Warren is the panacea that we are waiting for, but we are definitely a much better team than our 9th seed suggests

The combination of Warren's injury, the Oladipo trade, and the 4th quarter meltdown against the 76ers that started a trend is the 1-2-3 jab-cross-left hook combo that put the team on a downward spiral that the team never quite recovered from

On one hand, it's easy to blame Bjorkgren for the team underperforming. Otoh, it's also easy to see all the challenges that he faced: being a first time HC, lack of practice in a shortened season, Warren's injury, Oladipo's trade, LeVert's surgery, etc

A more experienced and respected HC might have weathered all these challenges much better, so I suppose at least we can say that Bjorkgren did not manage to rise to the occasion, and might have made things worse, going by all the reports that are coming out about him

Maybe replacing him is the right move. But I can also see the argument of giving him one more season. Hard to say for sure

[Wizop]

Some years ago there was a best selling book called the Peter Principle. Its claim was that everyone gets promoted until they eventually reach a level where they are incompetent. One year may not be enough to conclude that Bjorkgren is an excellent top assistant but an incompetent head coach, but he made a lot of mistakes that he needs to learn from.

[pacers33granger]

I read it at first as Olynyk, and thought “I HATE THE GUY” but I’d probably like him if he were on my team.

three guys I disrespect are Olynyk and the Morris twins but any of the three would make us a better team. we could use a dog.

I would strongly strongly prefer to just sign on for another year of Lance if we need that kind of mentality in the locker room.

[pacers33granger]

Reminder for everyone, for the 4 games that Warren played this season, Pacers went 3-1

Not saying that the return of Warren is the panacea that we are waiting for, but we are definitely a much better team than our 9th seed suggests

The combination of Warren's injury, the Oladipo trade, and the 4th quarter meltdown against the 76ers that started a trend is the 1-2-3 jab-cross-left hook combo that put the team on a downward spiral that the team never quite recovered from

On one hand, it's easy to blame Bjorkgren for the team underperforming. Otoh, it's also easy to see all the challenges that he faced: being a first time HC, lack of practice in a shortened season, Warren's injury, Oladipo's trade, LeVert's surgery, etc

A more experienced and respected HC might have weathered all these challenges much better, so I suppose at least we can say that Bjorkgren did not manage to rise to the occasion, and might have made things worse, going by all the reports that are coming out about him

Maybe replacing him is the right move. But I can also see the argument of giving him one more season. Hard to say for sure

This is a good point that has somewhat gotten lost in the midst of everything. We for sure had an awful, disappointing season. But we also had Warren for only 4 games, Myles, Brogdon, Lamb, LeVert all missed significant time, Domas missed a couple weeks, and Goga, Sumner both missed chunks of time throughout the year. We also had a brand new coach and coaching staff. During an extremely odd and frustrating season for everyone in the league. With the Vic drama hanging over the team for the first few months.

Nate sucked. But he did have to deal with a lot and never really got a chance to have the team he expected to through injuries and trade. He also didn't get a ton of practice time. Oshae being in the right place and knowing Nate's system was encouraging that it can maybe work with the right personnel and implementation.

If the reports of his temper and demeanor are true, you kinda have to wonder if it was the stress of all the above getting to him eventually.

At this point, I think the most reasonable approach is to reassess the rest of the staff and find a respected former head coach or high level assistant. Maybe Atkinson? Joerger was interviewed, but he also had a prickly attitude so that may not work. Maybe we steal Adrian Griffin from Nurse as someone whose respected, a former player, and would know how to deal with Nate.

[Topofthekey]

Looking at the Warriors' season, I'm impressed by how they have taken end of bench, no name players like Poole and JTA and developed them into useful players over the season

Previously they did it with players like Paschall, Looney, Damion Lee, etc

Seems like that's what successful teams do, plucking out the diamonds in the rough on their roster and making the most out of them

[winter_mute_13]

Looking at the Warriors' season, I'm impressed by how they have taken end of bench, no name players like Poole and JTA and developed them into useful players over the season

Previously they did it with players like Paschall, Looney, Damion Lee, etc

Seems like that's what successful teams do, plucking out the diamonds in the rough on their roster and making the most out of them

That's true, but ultimately the Warriors still had Steph Curry's MVP level season to lead the way.

I think the Pacers have done pretty well turning castoffs into decent players - Oshae of course, but also guys like TJ McConnell and Justin Holiday, and maybe we can count Warren and Bojan from earlier too. It's at the top end where the Pacers have been less lucky.

[winter_mute_13]

If the reports of his temper and demeanor are true, you kinda have to wonder if it was the stress of all the above getting to him eventually.

Possible, and also that the stress of the losing situation led some players/staff to badmouth him, when maybe they wouldn't have if the Pacers were winning.

No opinion on how bad this stuff really was, but I remember that similar things were said about Rick Carlisle in Detroit. And then he was hired by the Pacers, where he was mostly fine. Maybe his social skills improved by then, I don't know.

At this point, I think the most reasonable approach is to reassess the rest of the staff and find a respected former head coach or high level assistant. Maybe Atkinson? Joerger was interviewed, but he also had a prickly attitude so that may not work. Maybe we steal Adrian Griffin from Nurse as someone whose respected, a former player, and would know how to deal with Nate.

Yeah, if new Nate stays we would need some vet types, both on the coaching staff and the roster. Maybe even let someone else take over the defense, which might not be something he'd agree to. But I guess we'll see.