Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2

[waffle]

as a comparison....vooch is a KILLER within 10 feet of the basket. Lauri? Looks rushed, awkward, indecisive.

[ChettheJet]

I wouldn't mind seeing Lauri in a Maverick's uniform. Maybe he thinks he could be Dirk Lite

I wish they had more to send back that would help the Bulls, Brunson and $17M worth of filler isn't what anybody should be suggesting. Not Dwight Powell, not an opting in Josh Richardson, I wouldn't say Tim Hardaway jr on a return S&T. Maxi Kleber from a long distance almost seems like he'd be an option but he never played more than 26 MPG for them, a high water mark of 9.1 PPG. You just figure if they thought he could contribute more they would have played him more. Theis looks like a lot better option

They've only got picks going out so that's not an option. The longshot would be if they could make a trade before making a S&T deal for Markkanen with the Bulls and get assets to pass along.

[the ultimates]

These Lauri discussions here are highly entertaining and a joy to read. Hope this goes on during the offseason so I would at least have something interesting to read when there is no games to watch.




I can't say I have vast knowledge of basketball, but anyone who has ever played a bit of basketball knows that this is not true, especially on the top level like NBA. Players don't really choose what they are supposed to do in the playing field, coaching staff gives the guidelines how each player is supposed to play. Of course there are exceptions and unexpected things happen in the court that need fast reactions, but clearly posting up hasn't been something Lauri is meant to be doing a lot.




This is more likely. Looking at Lauri's efficiency stats, he should definitely post up more and we can't know if he is a good or bad post player before he is actually allowed to play more in the post. The coaching staff might have better knowledge about Lauri's post playing skills and clearly don't believe he would be as efficient on a higher rate. But definitely us basketball fans can't say that he is a bad or unefficient post player before we see more from him. We can speculate though.

I wonder why people keep repeating this narrative that during last offseason Markkanen wanted to resign with the Bulls, but Bulls didn't want to pay him. I believe it is very likely that Lauri didn't want to resign with the Bulls in those circumstances, new FO, new coach, bad previous season with terrible coach, a losing team, why would any (young) player sign before seeing if things get better in the upcoming season? Excessive money on the table could help, but for an ambitious young player, a spot in a winning team might weigh more on the scale.

I'm going to keep repeating this. The Bulls run one of most free-flowing least rigid offenses in the NBA. No one was telling him not to post up or even try. Again this notion that Lauri is somehow intentionally limited in this offense is simply not true and I don't know how it came about or why it keeps being said. The truth is he's a limited offensive player who plays like a limited offensive player. Blaming his coaches, teammates, and offensive system after four years is just wrong.

So are you saying that if the coaching staff would tell Lauri to post up more, and also tell the whole team to get the ball to Lauri in the post more, it wouldn't happen in this most free-flowing offense in the NBA? And just for the record, I'm not arguing that they should have done that, I'm arguing about the way basketball teams operate. (Don't know if this sentence about blaming just coaches etc. for Lauri's shortcomings was aimed at me, but that's not my intention.)

It's not about the coaching staff telling Lauri to post up more. He already has the freedom to do it. Do you think the staff was telling Thad to post up or was he just doing it? Young likes to operate at the elbow and on the block whether he has an obvious mismatch or not. The Bulls didn't call out or run plays for him to do that and many a time his teammates within the flow of the offense got him the ball. Please tell me why Lauri couldn't do that. Teams can still have a good post player and not have a rigid, plodding, slow-it-down offense and maintain spacing.

[FanInTheAttic]

as a comparison....vooch is a KILLER within 10 feet of the basket. Lauri? Looks rushed, awkward, indecisive.

I totally agree, I really enjoy watching the way Vooch plays in the post, strong and smooth at the same time. I wish he would be younger and just reaching his prime. Markkanen has a different style to play in the post, and he doesn't look as confident, but somehow he has managed to get the job done in an efficient way this season (I know, small sample size). I would have liked to see more.

[edededtut]

So Lauri should have just told thad/wendell/gafford to beat it and taken their place in the post? And then they would have been providing spacing at the three point line?

It’s funny how ”bulls guards werent able to pass/were free to ignore Lauri in a good post position/bulls should have tried a bit harder to find Lauri in the post after a mismatch” has somehow now progressed to folks trying to prove a point by actually arguing the Hawks should NOT try to get more looks to a 57% three point shooter..

[FanInTheAttic]

I'm going to keep repeating this. The Bulls run one of most free-flowing least rigid offenses in the NBA. No one was telling him not to post up or even try. Again this notion that Lauri is somehow intentionally limited in this offense is simply not true and I don't know how it came about or why it keeps being said. The truth is he's a limited offensive player who plays like a limited offensive player. Blaming his coaches, teammates, and offensive system after four years is just wrong.

So are you saying that if the coaching staff would tell Lauri to post up more, and also tell the whole team to get the ball to Lauri in the post more, it wouldn't happen in this most free-flowing offense in the NBA? And just for the record, I'm not arguing that they should have done that, I'm arguing about the way basketball teams operate. (Don't know if this sentence about blaming just coaches etc. for Lauri's shortcomings was aimed at me, but that's not my intention.)

It's not about the coaching staff telling Lauri to post up more. He already has the freedom to do it. Do you think the staff was telling Thad to post up or was he just doing it? Young likes to operate at the elbow and on the block whether he has an obvious mismatch or not. The Bulls didn't call out or run plays for him to do that and many a time his teammates within the flow of the offense got him the ball. Please tell me why Lauri couldn't do that. Teams can still have a good post player and not have a rigid, plodding, slow-it-down offense and maintain spacing.

Yes, they have definitely discussed about how Thad should play. It doesn't mean that they would need to run a play every time they want Thad to post up, but most definitely he is encouraged to post up when the opportunity comes, and also to look for that opportunity. I'm pretty sure the discussion with Markkanen was not similar, he has had different instructions. Of course coaches take in to account individual players skills and where they are a comfortable fit, and that's why Thad is most probably not encouraged to take a lot of 3 point shots. If the coaching staff would have liked to see what happens when Markkanen posts up more, they could have made that happen, but as I stated before maybe they had a reason not do that, despite the efficiency stats making it look like an experiment worth doing.

[E-DC]

Maybe I need to see a therapist to deal with my "serious issues"

At this point, I think a number of us may chip in to help you pay for it.

[kodo]

I could see Lauri working on the Mavs, he wouldn't have to do much other than catching & shooting and driving against close outs.

I'd be very curious to see how much they'd be willing to pay him, Doncic obviously gets the supermax fairly soon.

[dice]

I wouldn't mind seeing Lauri in a Maverick's uniform. Maybe he thinks he could be Dirk Lite

I wish they had more to send back that would help the Bulls, Brunson and $17M worth of filler isn't what anybody should be suggesting. Not Dwight Powell, not an opting in Josh Richardson, I wouldn't say Tim Hardaway jr on a return S&T. Maxi Kleber from a long distance almost seems like he'd be an option but he never played more than 26 MPG for them, a high water mark of 9.1 PPG. You just figure if they thought he could contribute more they would have played him more. Theis looks like a lot better option

They've only got picks going out so that's not an option. The longshot would be if they could make a trade before making a S&T deal for Markkanen with the Bulls and get assets to pass along.

has a restricted free agent ever been sign-and-traded for? doesn't make much sense. if the bulls offer him 12, why would the mavs give up assets and pay him 12 when they can just sign him outright for 13?

for the record, the bulls signed mirotic for 2/25, which is the current equivalent of $14 mil a year. and lauri is basically a poor man's niko

[Nate3carp]

I wouldn't mind seeing Lauri in a Maverick's uniform. Maybe he thinks he could be Dirk Lite

I wish they had more to send back that would help the Bulls, Brunson and $17M worth of filler isn't what anybody should be suggesting. Not Dwight Powell, not an opting in Josh Richardson, I wouldn't say Tim Hardaway jr on a return S&T. Maxi Kleber from a long distance almost seems like he'd be an option but he never played more than 26 MPG for them, a high water mark of 9.1 PPG. You just figure if they thought he could contribute more they would have played him more. Theis looks like a lot better option

They've only got picks going out so that's not an option. The longshot would be if they could make a trade before making a S&T deal for Markkanen with the Bulls and get assets to pass along.

why would the mavs give up anything for a guy they can just outbid the bulls for if they really want him?

They could just sign him, but they’d have to renounce all their free agents and then he’d be their only big signing. Or they could make their moves and then Get Lauri on a S&T

[dice]

I wouldn't mind seeing Lauri in a Maverick's uniform. Maybe he thinks he could be Dirk Lite

I wish they had more to send back that would help the Bulls, Brunson and $17M worth of filler isn't what anybody should be suggesting. Not Dwight Powell, not an opting in Josh Richardson, I wouldn't say Tim Hardaway jr on a return S&T. Maxi Kleber from a long distance almost seems like he'd be an option but he never played more than 26 MPG for them, a high water mark of 9.1 PPG. You just figure if they thought he could contribute more they would have played him more. Theis looks like a lot better option

They've only got picks going out so that's not an option. The longshot would be if they could make a trade before making a S&T deal for Markkanen with the Bulls and get assets to pass along.

why would the mavs give up anything for a guy they can just outbid the bulls for if they really want him?

They could just sign him, but they’d have to renounce all their free agents and then he’d be their only big signing. Or they could make their moves and then Get Lauri on a S&T

i'd hardly qualify lauri as a big signing. that aside, your explanation makes sense. but then it brings up the question of how realistic it is that the bulls would trade for guys that the mavs obviously think are worse than lauri. positional need swap?

[Nate3carp]

why would the mavs give up anything for a guy they can just outbid the bulls for if they really want him?

They could just sign him, but they’d have to renounce all their free agents and then he’d be their only big signing. Or they could make their moves and then Get Lauri on a S&T

i'd hardly qualify lauri as a big signing. that aside, your explanation makes sense. but then it brings up the question of how realistic it is that the bulls would trade for guys that the mavs obviously think are worse than lauri. positional need swap?

True, it is probably debatable if Lauri is a big signing. It looks like the Mavs will have around $20m in space if JRich opts in and they’d have to use most of it on Lauri. I don’t want to keep Lauri, but Bulls have to match a below market value contract, even if just to trade him. Was just making the point that I’d they want to add more than Lauri, or keep Hardaway, they may consider a S&T.

[CobyWhite0]

I wouldn't mind seeing Lauri in a Maverick's uniform. Maybe he thinks he could be Dirk Lite

I wish they had more to send back that would help the Bulls, Brunson and $17M worth of filler isn't what anybody should be suggesting. Not Dwight Powell, not an opting in Josh Richardson, I wouldn't say Tim Hardaway jr on a return S&T. Maxi Kleber from a long distance almost seems like he'd be an option but he never played more than 26 MPG for them, a high water mark of 9.1 PPG. You just figure if they thought he could contribute more they would have played him more. Theis looks like a lot better option

They've only got picks going out so that's not an option. The longshot would be if they could make a trade before making a S&T deal for Markkanen with the Bulls and get assets to pass along.

has a restricted free agent ever been sign-and-traded for? doesn't make much sense. if the bulls offer him 12, why would the mavs give up assets and pay him 12 when they can just sign him outright for 13?

for the record, the bulls signed mirotic for 2/25, which is the current equivalent of $14 mil a year. and lauri is basically a poor man's niko

Because the Mavs (and every other team in the league) can't just "sign Lauri outright for 13" - the Bulls can still just match his offer sheet. And probably would at that price.

[Axl Rose]

Mavs may be a good spot for him. Wish him luck wherever he goes and sad it didn't work out here.

Because the Mavs (and every other team in the league) can't just "sign Lauri outright for 13" - the Bulls can still just match his offer sheet. And probably would at that price.

I hope not. For one hes too redundant with Vuc. I also think he is ready to go elsewhere so let him go. If they wanted something in return they should have traded him at the deadline (apparently no one was offering much).

[Hugi Mancura]

Mavs may be a good spot for him. Wish him luck wherever he goes and sad it didn't work out here.

Because the Mavs (and every other team in the league) can't just "sign Lauri outright for 13" - the Bulls can still just match his offer sheet. And probably would at that price.

I hope not. For one hes too redundant with Vuc. I also think he is ready to go elsewhere so let him go. If they wanted something in return they should have traded him at the deadline (apparently no one was offering much).

Rumours also claim that Bulls wanted first for Lauri and no-one gonna pay first round pick for RFA who isn't a superstar, if you can get him with offer sheet in the summer.

But if someone offers 13M Bulls will match. 15M is on the border. Bulls will match because they want to get something back and there is always a chance to trade him later on the season, unless you tank his value.

[coldfish]

Even if the Bulls don't want Lauri (which they clearly don't), they would match a reasonable offer for Lauri and look to trade him when it was legal. If some team wants Lauri, they would have to make an unreasonable offer like 4/80. I seriously doubt the Bulls match that.

As others are saying, Dallas has very little to trade.

[sco]

Even if the Bulls don't want Lauri (which they clearly don't), they would match a reasonable offer for Lauri and look to trade him when it was legal. If some team wants Lauri, they would have to make an unreasonable offer like 4/80. I seriously doubt the Bulls match that.

As others are saying, Dallas has very little to trade.

S&T Lauri and White for Brunson plus filler...I wish, but seriously, I appreciate Lauri being the most polarizing player on the Bulls since Rodman. He's blown poor Mirotic and McDermott out the water.

[dougthonus]

has a restricted free agent ever been sign-and-traded for? doesn't make much sense. if the bulls offer him 12, why would the mavs give up assets and pay him 12 when they can just sign him outright for 13?

Here's an article about it, but S&Ts are very rare and generally don't yield much:

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/06/why-nba-sign-and-trades-are-rare-2.html

I know there have been RFAs that have been S&T'd, but it definitely isn't common. Eddy Curry was a S&T to the Knicks if you want to go back that far. Joe Johnson was a S&T to the Hawks from Phoenix. Those are the two that come to mind. The Knicks didn't have room and the Suns were going to match if a real offer was made.

I'm sure there are probably other exapmles over time.

At any rate, a team that gets under the cap would not do a S&T with the Bulls knowing that there is very little threat of a match. Only a team that wanted to preserve cap room would do it. I doubt we'd get more than 2nd rounder if we wanted to help out a team in this way.

The other option is we could do a S&T with a team with cap room (and get nothing at all back) just to get a salary cap exception, but due to the salary matching rules, the exception would only be at half the value of the player going in the trade. This would work for us though if we wanted to stay over the cap and acquire a guy for maybe 7-10M or help someone else get out of the luxury tax later or something like that and maybe flip it for a minor asset.

The idea we'll get anything substantive for Lauri is a pipe dream.

for the record, the bulls signed mirotic for 2/25, which is the current equivalent of $14 mil a year. and lauri is basically a poor man's niko

Niko got offered about 18M a year from Utah and turned it down to play in Europe. Bertans got 15M a year. I'd say Lauri is better than Bertans and probably similar to Niko going into their contract years. I'd peg his fair market value around 16M-17M, but what he actually gets? Who knows, that depends on a lot of factors.

If there is no interest from any under the cap teams, he's either taking a one to two year gamble on himself and trying to reestablish his play or he's signing a four year MLE deal. If he gets two such teams to be interested in him, then he could land at 20M a year or more.

[Almost Retired]

It just seemed to me that Lauri has lost faith in the organization and the coaching turnover during his career. I think deep down inside he wants out. He and Zach never meshed. And it's Zach's team now. We made the big trade for Vooch. He's locked in here. Unfortunately we didn't trade him before the deadline. We are unlikely to get much now. Even if we match an offer he's still probably not in the long term plans for the team. It would delay the inevitable until any trade restrictions expired. He's not a "3" and he doesn't fit with Vooch. That relegates him to the bench which he's not happy about. I had such high hopes for the kid. But he doesn't have that inner drive like MJ or Butler to make himself great. He's content. He doesn't work on his game to improve his deficiencies. He doesn't add much to his arsenal between seasons. The great ones take about 2 weeks off after the season and then start prepping for the next one. Whether is was Walter Payton running sprints up hills or MJ and Pippen grinding it out with Tim Grover. But a guy with Lauri's talent for shooting the basketball would have added much more to his arsenal if he really wanted to be All Star material. Some of this was the lack of consistency within the organization and his 3 coaching staffs in his career. Some of it, I tend to agree, was his young fatherhood. He's already probably got enough bank to retire back in Finland and be happy. I could even see him following Mirotic and just returning to Europe. He's be closer to home and still make good money. That might make him happier.

[sco]

It just seemed to me that Lauri has lost faith in the organization and the coaching turnover during his career. I think deep down inside he wants out. He and Zach never meshed. And it's Zach's team now. We made the big trade for Vooch. He's locked in here. Unfortunately we didn't trade him before the deadline. We are unlikely to get much now. Even if we match an offer he's still probably not in the long term plans for the team. It would delay the inevitable until any trade restrictions expired. He's not a "3" and he doesn't fit with Vooch. That relegates him to the bench which he's not happy about. I had such high hopes for the kid. But he doesn't have that inner drive like MJ or Butler to make himself great. He's content. He doesn't work on his game to improve his deficiencies. He doesn't add much to his arsenal between seasons. The great ones take about 2 weeks off after the season and then start prepping for the next one. Whether is was Walter Payton running sprints up hills or MJ and Pippen grinding it out with Tim Grover. But a guy with Lauri's talent for shooting the basketball would have added much more to his arsenal if he really wanted to be All Star material. Some of this was the lack of consistency within the organization and his 3 coaching staffs in his career. Some of it, I tend to agree, was his young fatherhood. He's already probably got enough bank to retire back in Finland and be happy. I could even see him following Mirotic and just returning to Europe. He's be closer to home and still make good money. That might make him happier.

IMO, we as fans read more into it than the players even do. If Lauri got paid and started here, he'd be extatic - not that I want either to happen. I don't think Lauri is a guy who want a team to be "his". He's your typical, middle of the road, NBA guy. Nothing wrong with that.