2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[HeartBreakKid]

I mean there is one thing that kind of blows up that entire narrative.

The Bucks could have gotten better? I mean that seems like a pretty big detail to miss out.

The Heat were not a fluke...not sure how they benefited from the bubble more than anyone else. It's the same handicap for everyone, if they're a fluke then so are the Lakers.

[Colbinii]

I mean there is one thing that kind of blows up that entire narrative.

The Bucks could have gotten better? I mean that seems like a pretty big detail to miss out.

The Heat were not a fluke...not sure how they benefited from the bubble more than anyone else. It's the same handicap for everyone, if they're a fluke then so are the Lakers.

The Bucks upgraded their Achilles heel into the best perimeter defender in the NBA who can hit difficult shots, consistently make open 3's and is a good playmaker.

If Jrue Holiday was on the Bucks in 2019 instead of Jrue Bledsoe they win the NBA Championship.

[Peregrine01]

For KD, the issue is fundamentally insecurity and ego. I won't be completely surprised if he ends up being seen as a good leader in Brooklyn or somewhere later in his career because he's found his voice and he might be able to be in places where he's comfortable enough he doesn't go into that defensive place. As I say that, it was shocking seeing the way he blew up the situation in Golden State. This was literally a situation that probably no other star from the past would have serious issues. To me it was a "wow, this happened because of the internet" thing, where because of what was written about him and what was written about his teammate, it destroyed his capacity to be happy playing with that teammate despite the fact that teammate made every possible sacrifice for him.

It's interesting about this because the local Warriors media were incredibly favorable to KD as were the fanbase. Some grew to become disenchanted with KD-ball but overall, KD had relatively favorable treatment by the media and fanbase and yet he still lashed out at them.

Funny enough, I thought that the Warriors' best chance to resign KD was in the 2019 playoffs when KD was reasserting his alpha narrative and being considered the "best player in the world" but that completely blew up into shreds when he got injured and the Warriors still blew past the Rockets and Blazers to get into the Finals. But if KD's goal was to be thought of as "the best player in the world" why would he join an all-time great team headed by a player who was ahead of him by any objective measure of that status? People are strange.

[HeartBreakKid]

For KD, the issue is fundamentally insecurity and ego. I won't be completely surprised if he ends up being seen as a good leader in Brooklyn or somewhere later in his career because he's found his voice and he might be able to be in places where he's comfortable enough he doesn't go into that defensive place. As I say that, it was shocking seeing the way he blew up the situation in Golden State. This was literally a situation that probably no other star from the past would have serious issues. To me it was a "wow, this happened because of the internet" thing, where because of what was written about him and what was written about his teammate, it destroyed his capacity to be happy playing with that teammate despite the fact that teammate made every possible sacrifice for him.

It's interesting about this because the local Warriors media were incredibly favorable to KD as were the fanbase. Some grew to become disenchanted with KD-ball but overall, KD had relatively favorable treatment by the media and fanbase and yet he still lashed out at them.

Funny enough, I thought that the Warriors' best chance to resign KD was in the 2019 playoffs when KD was reasserting his alpha narrative and being considered the "best player in the world" but that completely blew up into shreds when he got injured and the Warriors still blew past the Rockets and Blazers to get into the Finals. But if KD's goal was to be thought of as "the best player in the world" why would he join an all-time great team headed by a player who was ahead of him by any objective measure of that status? People are strange.

Perhaps he simply just changed his goals and the means he wants to achieve greatness. The decisions were 3 years apart, and he had 2 rings and some ass kissing in between that. I think it makes a lot of sense that he would go elsewhere to try to win.

[MartinToVaught]

Has Jimmy Butler become one of those darling NBA players who never gets criticized for playing badly or displaying poor leadership now? Where everything just gets swept under the rug?

Jimmy is great at reciting the usual platitudes about "toughness" and "working hard" (which buys him a lot of goodwill with casual fans), and he uses those platitudes to subtly shift all the blame onto his teammates whenever things go wrong. It's never his fault, he's just always surrounded by soft players who don't work hard or care about winning. Nothing he could do. Nobody puts two and two together and realizes that he's the common denominator in a bunch of toxic situations that all end the same way.

[Peregrine01]

For KD, the issue is fundamentally insecurity and ego. I won't be completely surprised if he ends up being seen as a good leader in Brooklyn or somewhere later in his career because he's found his voice and he might be able to be in places where he's comfortable enough he doesn't go into that defensive place. As I say that, it was shocking seeing the way he blew up the situation in Golden State. This was literally a situation that probably no other star from the past would have serious issues. To me it was a "wow, this happened because of the internet" thing, where because of what was written about him and what was written about his teammate, it destroyed his capacity to be happy playing with that teammate despite the fact that teammate made every possible sacrifice for him.

It's interesting about this because the local Warriors media were incredibly favorable to KD as were the fanbase. Some grew to become disenchanted with KD-ball but overall, KD had relatively favorable treatment by the media and fanbase and yet he still lashed out at them.

Funny enough, I thought that the Warriors' best chance to resign KD was in the 2019 playoffs when KD was reasserting his alpha narrative and being considered the "best player in the world" but that completely blew up into shreds when he got injured and the Warriors still blew past the Rockets and Blazers to get into the Finals. But if KD's goal was to be thought of as "the best player in the world" why would he join an all-time great team headed by a player who was ahead of him by any objective measure of that status? People are strange.

Perhaps he simply just changed his goals and the means he wants to achieve greatness. The decisions were 3 years apart, and he had 2 rings and some ass kissing in between that. I think it makes a lot of sense that he would go elsewhere to try to win.

To me, it goes back to that saying, "the grass always seems greener on the other side".

He grew tired of OKC-ball and saw the Warriors motion offense and thought, "wow, what a great way to play". But he tired of that after basically one season and went back to the way he played in OKC - stagnant iso-ball.

He wanted to play with more skilled guys, Curry in particular, until he started chafing at the view among many that his teammate was a lot more valuable than he was.

He wanted to be part of a cohesive group until he started distancing himself from everyone Kyrie-style.

It goes on and on.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Jimmy and the team have been injured al year. Bams worse, everyone’s worse basically. Bucks are also way better than last year. Teams have basically swapped positions this year. It wasnt a fluke just everything came together. Great play and chemistry.

It looked like Bam and Jimmy were both having career years before this PS. The impact metrics backed this, heck even the basic box-score stats looked good. I really think that regardless of what you think of this bubble run, Milwaukee has taken a nice step forward. Herro, Duncan, and Dragic (who was actually their leading scorer on a Per 75 possession last PS), have all regressed I would have to say, and that makes a big difference.

[Texas Chuck]

Perhaps he simply just changed his goals and the means he wants to achieve greatness. The decisions were 3 years apart, and he had 2 rings and some ass kissing in between that. I think it makes a lot of sense that he would go elsewhere to try to win.

Very important point. I think people forget too much these are sentient human beings who have different motivations than we want to assign them. Jerami Grant took the same money from Detroit as Denver offered to return and people were like what? Then he came out and said he wanted a chance to grow his game and wanted to play for a black-led team.

I'm not a KD fan, but I've never had a problem with him exercising his rights as a free agent to pick his own path. Just as Lebron joined bad teams the last 2 times he moved in free agency and was confident in his ability to make that work. He wanted to win for Cleveland and he wanted the opportunities of LA. Cool.

[parsnips33]

Should Miami have gone harder for Harden? Was that even a possibility for them to get him? I feel like their offense was just barely good enough last year and they really didn't do much to improve

[Dupp]

Should Miami have gone harder for Harden? Was that even a possibility for them to get him? I feel like their offense was just barely good enough last year and they really didn't do much to improve

Every tea should have gone harder for harden. Boston ad Miami stick out the most. Philly also absolutely blew it.

[Doctor MJ]

For KD, the issue is fundamentally insecurity and ego. I won't be completely surprised if he ends up being seen as a good leader in Brooklyn or somewhere later in his career because he's found his voice and he might be able to be in places where he's comfortable enough he doesn't go into that defensive place. As I say that, it was shocking seeing the way he blew up the situation in Golden State. This was literally a situation that probably no other star from the past would have serious issues. To me it was a "wow, this happened because of the internet" thing, where because of what was written about him and what was written about his teammate, it destroyed his capacity to be happy playing with that teammate despite the fact that teammate made every possible sacrifice for him.

It's interesting about this because the local Warriors media were incredibly favorable to KD as were the fanbase. Some grew to become disenchanted with KD-ball but overall, KD had relatively favorable treatment by the media and fanbase and yet he still lashed out at them.

Funny enough, I thought that the Warriors' best chance to resign KD was in the 2019 playoffs when KD was reasserting his alpha narrative and being considered the "best player in the world" but that completely blew up into shreds when he got injured and the Warriors still blew past the Rockets and Blazers to get into the Finals. But if KD's goal was to be thought of as "the best player in the world" why would he join an all-time great team headed by a player who was ahead of him by any objective measure of that status? People are strange.

Perhaps he simply just changed his goals and the means he wants to achieve greatness. The decisions were 3 years apart, and he had 2 rings and some ass kissing in between that. I think it makes a lot of sense that he would go elsewhere to try to win.

I don't think so. I think KD realized after the first chip what many of us knew the moment he signed in GS:

He wasn't going to be seen as greater than LeBron simply because he played well for the winning side of the finals against LeBron.

I still don't think KD truly understands why people thought that way - I think he imagines people with a personal bias against him as opposed to him having an accurate understanding of how the basketball world judges achievement - but I think what he's wanted this entire time is maximum, unanimous acclaim more than anything else.

Now you'd be right to point out that him going to Brooklyn with Kyrie wasn't how he was going to get that, and I think there it makes sense to see KD as essentially circling the wagons with people he sees as "with him", but I'm 100% positive he's still got the same old rabbit ears.

[CKRT]

I am not sure how realistically Tillman would have let Harden go to Philly. Harden and Embiid would've been insane and also been the heel of the league. I am not sure I could handle game threads where they were both going to the line 20+ times a game

[CKRT]

Regarding other leader in that group, I think they're all different and all have some weaknesses, but the only one I feel a need to object to is Harden. With Harden the issue is not that he can't be alpha but rather that when he was alpha in Houston, he ended up in locker room schisms repeatedly, and while at first it was plausible to just blame the other side (Dwight, 'nuff said), I think by the end it was really dang clear that he doesn't have a great instinct for how to get the best out of others as people.

I'd also note with Harden that he has a path somewhat similar to AD because he was not "the big time prospect" for most of his high school career (Renardo Sidney was) and then in the pros he was 6th man in OKC. He came to alpha status late, but he clearly came to really enjoy being able to assert his will on his surroundings, and I'll say further, there's clearly a mean streak to him that I would assert about Kawhi. That mean streak helps him feel like more of a leader, but we've seen it can be a latent danger for his team.

I am not the biggest fan of Harden's leadership and mostly agree with your analysis on it but what other schisms did he have besides Dwight and Paul (both notoriously hard to get along with players)? Also curious about what you mean about mean streak?

I mean, how's that Harden-Westbrook relationship doing now? Beyond that there's the matter that we've heard grumbles (Ariza comes to mind, who had been fine with playing with superstars before) from players that there are just two sets of rules on the team, the official rules and whatever the hell Harden wants to do.

"mean streak"? Forcing a team to trade a better player for a worse player you say you want to play for, and after trying that just once, violating pandemic protocols as part of a process of forcing the hand of the franchise that had tried to give him everything for years. Can't get much more than "F the world, I'll do anything to get my way".

Harden and Westbrook are still best friends. Ariza specifically complained about the how superstars get preferential treatment and that he has felt that way on other teams too, he just happened to be on the Rockets when Lowe was doing his piece on him. Ariza also plays in the NBA, which is objectively a superstar league. That's just the way it is.

I am not sure what to believe about the Paul/Westbrook situation. I have heard that Harden told Morey he wanted Westbrook AND Paul on the team and that was initially the trade they were going for, obviously didn't work out that way, and then Tillman forced the trade through.

Re: His trade demands leaving Houston, he forced their hand. Houston was reportedly content holding on to him even though he wanted out. So he hit the nuke button. I personally don't blame him for that as it was uncharacteristic for him to do the things he was doing (minus the strip club lol) and Tillman is a piece of ****.

Edit: to be clear, I do not think Harden is a great leader, just simply an okay one.

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't believe there was any animosity between Harden and Westbrook. Just because a star player gets traded doesn't mean that there was heat between a star teammate.

There were non-Harden reasons to trade Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook. It looked like those two guys were on borrowed time.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't believe there was any animosity between Harden and Westbrook. Just because a star player gets traded doesn't mean that there was heat between a star teammate.

There were non-Harden reasons to trade Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook. It looked like those two guys were on borrowed time.

You can make that case, but its pretty hard to justify trading Westbrook for Wall and a pick as something that made the Rockets better. Maybe Westbrook was the one wanting out rather than Harden wanting him out, but I can't imagine that was a purely basketball trade.

As to Paul that one is more justifiable though as a guy who isn't hung up on age nearly as much as the next guy I saw that as a step back as well compounded by all the assets sacrificed and the fit was always going to be more of a challenge as Westbrook becomes way less effective not dominating the ball and when you have Harden he should be the one with the ball.

[Dupp]

I am not sure how realistically Tillman would have let Harden go to Philly. Harden and Embiid would've been insane and also been the heel of the league. I am not sure I could handle game threads where they were both going to the line 20+ times a game

Honestly harden going anywhere is realistic because what they ended up with was nada. Probably the worst trade in nba history. Ben Simmons for harden would have been an ok return with picks. Better than Kelly o that’s for sure.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't believe there was any animosity between Harden and Westbrook. Just because a star player gets traded doesn't mean that there was heat between a star teammate.

There were non-Harden reasons to trade Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook. It looked like those two guys were on borrowed time.

Hard for us to get anywhere in these conversations where we aren't actually in the room.

Stuff that I heard:
1. That Westbrook was unhappy with the culture and the lack of accountability on the team.
2. That Westbrook wanted a trade.
3. That Harden wanted a trade.

Since (1) was absolutely a true statement regardless of whether Westbrook said and (2) & (3) happened, along with all the other stuff, I'm not inclined to give benefit of the doubt.

And you might recall I'm someone who gave Harden the benefit of the doubt for a very long time because he's a local boy made good I was pulling for.

[Doctor MJ]

I am not the biggest fan of Harden's leadership and mostly agree with your analysis on it but what other schisms did he have besides Dwight and Paul (both notoriously hard to get along with players)? Also curious about what you mean about mean streak?

I mean, how's that Harden-Westbrook relationship doing now? Beyond that there's the matter that we've heard grumbles (Ariza comes to mind, who had been fine with playing with superstars before) from players that there are just two sets of rules on the team, the official rules and whatever the hell Harden wants to do.

"mean streak"? Forcing a team to trade a better player for a worse player you say you want to play for, and after trying that just once, violating pandemic protocols as part of a process of forcing the hand of the franchise that had tried to give him everything for years. Can't get much more than "F the world, I'll do anything to get my way".

Harden and Westbrook are still best friends. Ariza specifically complained about the how superstars get preferential treatment and that he has felt that way on other teams too, he just happened to be on the Rockets when Lowe was doing his piece on him. Ariza also plays in the NBA, which is objectively a superstar league. That's just the way it is.

I am not sure what to believe about the Paul/Westbrook situation. I have heard that Harden told Morey he wanted Westbrook AND Paul on the team and that was initially the trade they were going for, obviously didn't work out that way, and then Tillman forced the trade through.

Re: His trade demands leaving Houston, he forced their hand. Houston was reportedly content holding on to him even though he wanted out. So he hit the nuke button. I personally don't blame him for that as it was uncharacteristic for him to do the things he was doing (minus the strip club lol) and Tillman is a piece of ****.

Edit: to be clear, I do not think Harden is a great leader, just simply an okay one.

I don't want to keep going on this stuff, but to me you're just clearly ignoring or rationalizing all the bad stuff and choosing to believe the good stuff.

I honestly can't fathom how you can deny that Harden wanted Paul gone. Stories at the time were quite clear and the trade they made made absolutely zero sense unless Harden wanted Paul gone so badly he left the team without a choice.

[Texas Chuck]

Would love for the little Mavericks to finish this off tonight. Because if they win tonight I think we might get the Memorial Day Massacre(yes I know technically game 4 is the day before...). Clippers do not strike me as a team who would continue to fight knowing they had to do what's never been done.

[parsnips33]

Would love for the little Mavericks to finish this off tonight. Because if they win tonight I think we might get the Memorial Day Massacre(yes I know technically game 4 is the day before...). Clippers do not strike me as a team who would continue to fight knowing they had to do what's never been done.

On one hand, I want the Mavs to sweep and shake loose some stars (Bob Myers should really send Luka a fruit basket or something) On the other hand, it would be fun for Clippers to win this game and inject some drama back in the series