ROUND 1, GAME 5: Mavericks @ Clippers 7:00PM 6/2/2021

[LamarWho]

That 16-0 run finishing the 3rd was the season right there. Kept telling my friend we gotta keep the deficit manageable, because Luka fades in the 4th. Next thing you know the deficit went from 5 to 8...16..... Ironically playoff Rondo played some of the worst basketball wearing a Clippers uniform during that stretch.

[NickP]

Read on Twitter

We might as well rest the starters and concede Game 6, because we're not winning Game 7 if it comes to that. Early matinee games = automatic loss.

LMFAO! Our record is pretty abysmal in these afternoon games and I'm being kind.

[Quake Griffin]

I'm over it. The act is old.

Even if this team were to win in 7, I'm not really interested in the act. Show me a WCF appearance and that'll get my dick hard but other than that, I'm coo.

In 10 seasons of over 500/ playoff basketball, this franchise has won FOUR total series. FOUR. 2012 Grizzlies. 2014 Worriers. 2015 Spurs. 2020 Mavericks. All of these have gone 7 except for the Mavs which went 6 with plenty of embarrassment and Luka **** on us along the way.

I dunno if there is any other team in basketball that consistently makes the playoffs, with HCA seeding in the 1st round and cannot seem to EVER, over the course of a decade, easily dispose of an opponent at some point.

Kawhi era was supposed to be the change to that. It is more of the same. I'm over it.

[Quake Griffin]

That 16-0 run finishing the 3rd was the season right there. Kept telling my friend we gotta keep the deficit manageable, because Luka fades in the 4th. Next thing you know the deficit went from 5 to 8...16..... Ironically playoff Rondo played some of the worst basketball wearing a Clippers uniform during that stretch.

This team disintegrates.

As I've said before, this isn't some all time great slobber knocker of a series.
It's the game the Clippers choke and unravel and the games that they do.

3 choking ass cowardly games.
2 non chokey games.

[Quake Griffin]

A rare sighting, and assist by Morris

You all need to relax, 7-0 is nothing at the start of a game

Nah.

This was important to me. I hate "setting the tone" as a thing. But this was huge to me.

[Quake Griffin]

Read on Twitter

[clipperlover]

Did we have turnovers in the 4th quarter? Yes. However, even with the late makes in the 4th by the Mavs, they only scored 16 points in the 4th quarter. The 4th Quarter D was on point. Before we went into that quarter, I thought we might need a 40 pt qtr to win. We didn't have a single 30 pt qtr in the game.

We had 5 guys in double figures, they had 2. We have too much playoff experience on our bench to only generate 11 pts to their 18.

Ty Lue will make adjustments and we will win this series. Here are some things to consider:
1. Closeout games - While Luka may be up for the challenge, are the rest of his teammates?
2. Two Day turnaround for the next two games - No multi-day rest and travel is required this year
3. Our bench - We have Boogie and Patterson who have a lot more playoff minutes than the Mavs bench. Lue will not be able to just let these guys rot on the bench and not contribute. Lue could actually bring in Cousins to push Boban around.

[RingColluder]

Hey Mods, I rarely call you guys out like this but are you um actually reading what's going on here? Do you still not see how every god damn thread is hijacked into a PG personal vendetta thread?

It's pretty bizarre for this game in particular because PG was one of the only players on this sorry-ass team who played with heart and wanted to win. Yes, his fouls were stupid. No, it doesn't excuse the rest of the team for melting down. This wasn't a "Playoff P" game, this was him trying and not getting enough help. There's being critical of a player and then there's being unreasonable. Trashing PG like he single-handedly lost that game is being unreasonable. Especially when the player he's been advocating to surpass PG as the second option (Morris) has been a disaster all series.

That being said, PG still has to be traded this offseason barring a miracle playoff run. If Kawhi stays, we've seen enough to know that this duo isn't going to deliver any real success and it's time to reshuffle the team around him. If Kawhi leaves, we desperately need to replenish some draft picks with a PG trade.

So now you'r ignoring his 3 (!!) turnovers which led 7 points, he did lose the game combining both of the turnovers and minutes he was out bc of dumb fouls. You can play with heart and still make awful low IQ basketball plays, TMann plays with heart and made probably not the smartest play to end the game.

Please do not purposely mislead on my opinions. I have NEVER said Morris should surpass PG, I said the shot distribution needed to change when PG was taking his deep contested 2's for an extra 5 shots a game. That's incorrect what you are saying.


Kawhi is leaving anyway at this rate, so PG won't get traded unless Kawhi agrees to stay. Either be all on board or not, the defense of some players while also saying, "they need to be traded" is "pretty bizarre".

--
Edit: If there's one critical thing I'll say it's that Ty Lue SHOULD NOT have taken PG out or once the lead ballooned put him back in earlier. It was clear after 3-5 minutes how awful the lineup was doing, we needed him back in 4 fouls or not.

[RingColluder]

Hey Mods, I rarely call you guys out like this but are you um actually reading what's going on here? Do you still not see how every god damn thread is hijacked into a PG personal vendetta thread?

It's pretty bizarre for this game in particular because PG was one of the only players on this sorry-ass team who played with heart and wanted to win. Yes, his fouls were stupid. No, it doesn't excuse the rest of the team for melting down. This wasn't a "Playoff P" game, this was him trying and not getting enough help. There's being critical of a player and then there's being unreasonable.

This. And yeah. I kind of agree that the foul calls on PG were ticky-tack—especially by playoff standards—but he should know better. OTOH, he played great for nearly 39 minutes. The anti-PG thing isn’t worth giving air to. We fell behind when PG was out—but not [b]because he was out.[/b] From 6:32 to 3:30, while PG was out, we gave up … 1 point. It was 70-67 when he was called for the fourth foul and went to the bench. Reggie hit a three point shot to put us back in the lead, 75-73, with about 3:30 to go. All we had to do was keep playing like that for about three more minutes.

Instead … well, our breakdown for the final 3:20 of the third quarter looks like this:

2:51: MISS: Jackson 25’ 3PT Step Back Jump Shot
2:23: TURNOVER: Leonard Bad Pass
2:06: MISS: Leonard 14’ Fadeaway Jumper
1:38: MISS: Rondo 28’ 3PT Step Back Jump Shot
1:04: MISS: Rondo 27’ 3PT Step Back Jump Shot
35.5: MISS: Leonard 27’ 3PT Jump Shot
30.6: FOUL: R. Rondo
5.3: MISS: Jackson 4’ Driving Hook Shot
3.8: OFF. REBOUND: Morris
3.8: MISS: Morris Tip Layup Shot
1.7: OFF. REBOUND: Leonard
0.2: MISS: Leonard 15’ Turnaround Fadeaway Bank Jump Shot
7 possessions, 8 misses, 1 Turnover.

Here’s what the Mavs did in that 3:20.

3:17: 3 PT: Hardaway Jr. 26’ Jump Shot (76-75)
2:39: 2 PT: Doncic 8’ Floating Jump Shot (78-75)
2:23: Hardaway Jr. steal
2:22: 2 PT: Doncic 2’ Running Alley Oop Layup Shot (80-75)
1:51: 2 PT: Doncic 5’ Driving Jump Shot (82-75)
1:25: 2 PT: Powell 2’ Cutting Dunk Shot (84-75)
52.0: 3 PT: Doncic 27’ Step Back Jump Shot (87-75)
30.6: MISS: 2 PT: Doncic 30’ Pull Up Jump Shot
30.6 OFF. REBOUND: Finney-Smith
30.6: 2 PT: Finney-Smith 2 FT (89-75)

7 possessions, 4 2 PT makes, 2 3 PT. makes, 2 FT, 1 miss

We were outscored 16-0. Any questions?

The team we had on the court was Kawhi Leonard, Marcus Morris, Jackson/Mann, Rondo, and Zubac/Batum. They are the players that did not make stops and did not make shots. We are not talking about players being tired, or second units. Other than PG, those are our main mpg players. What we had was a flood of bad play from everyone on the court at the same time. None of them escapes this. Going 0-8 and letting the other team go 6-7 is simply unacceptable.

Note: I actually thought Mann played well—he made the type of mistake and hesitated the way a player of his caliber and experience
should have been expected. He brought some spark—we need players to play downhill, with aggression, attacking the basket.

Did you not recognize the difference in aggression and play from the Mavericks offense once PG left the game? They played like it was a G League game and attacked at will.

Again, Ty Lue is the one who specifically called out PG's dumb foul for the REASON they lost. And the Clippers broadcasters. This is not me saying something that the men getting paid to report on the Clippers aren't saying too


This block in material you highlighted proves exactly my point:

3:17: 3 PT: Hardaway Jr. 26’ Jump Shot (76-75)
2:39: 2 PT: Doncic 8’ Floating Jump Shot (78-75)
2:23: Hardaway Jr. steal
2:22: 2 PT: Doncic 2’ Running Alley Oop Layup Shot (80-75)
1:51: 2 PT: Doncic 5’ Driving Jump Shot (82-75)
1:25: 2 PT: Powell 2’ Cutting Dunk Shot (84-75)
52.0: 3 PT: Doncic 27’ Step Back Jump Shot (87-75)
30.6: MISS: 2 PT: Doncic 30’ Pull Up Jump Shot
30.6 OFF. REBOUND: Finney-Smith
30.6: 2 PT: Finney-Smith 2 FT (89-75)

This is attacking AT WILL and something the Mavs did and switched entirely after PG went out. Come on. At this point you're going against Ty Lue by making this argument otherwise

[RingColluder]

I'm over it. The act is old.

Even if this team were to win in 7, I'm not really interested in the act. Show me a WCF appearance and that'll get my dick hard but other than that, I'm coo.

In 10 seasons of over 500/ playoff basketball, this franchise has won FOUR total series. FOUR. 2012 Grizzlies. 2014 Worriers. 2015 Spurs. 2020 Mavericks. All of these have gone 7 except for the Mavs which went 6 with plenty of embarrassment and Luka **** on us along the way.

I dunno if there is any other team in basketball that consistently makes the playoffs, with HCA seeding in the 1st round and cannot seem to EVER, over the course of a decade, easily dispose of an opponent at some point.

Kawhi era was supposed to be the change to that. It is more of the same. I'm over it.

Yeah, I hope they lose the next game at this rate and blow up the team. There is absolutely no hope with them anymore. Even a WCF matchup isn't enough, it's finals or bust and at this rate we'll be too exhausted to beat the Jazz in a series despite another great matchup.

This series really exposed that had Porzingis and Luka been healthy last season we would have got our ass whopped and been ANOTHER first round exit. I wish you were around more this season Quake bc you have absolutely spot on like MTV and I were regarding this team.

[Kelphus]

Even if somehow we win this series, we'll get swept by the Jazz.

At this point, I'd rather just lose this series. That at least might force some actual major changes, such as firing the entire front office. We clearly didn't change enough from last season.

Seriously?

[Kelphus]

Random thoughts:

Doncic is truly a beast. He was like a high school player matched up against junior high guys. However, it seemed Rondo guarded him pretty well, harassing him.

I give credit to the team crawling back into the game late in the 4th. But I think PG13 had three unforced turnovers almost in a row during the last three minutes - that killed us.

Having a second year player who got no real minutes until this year... in the final minutes of a game in which the last basket wins? Mann is not Doncic - I can't believe he was left in the game.

I am devastated by the loss, I really thought Charles Barkley was right - that mavs would not win another game.

On to the next game. I am a fan. I look for the next win, not the next loss.

Reading the defeatism in so many posts is sad. It's not illogical (cite the stat that about 80% of the time, the 5th game winner after a 2-2 tie wins the series). But until we lose the series, I'll watch and root.

[RingColluder]

Random thoughts:

Doncic is truly a beast. He was like a high school player matched up against junior high guys. However, it seemed Rondo guarded him pretty well, harassing him.

I give credit to the team crawling back into the game late in the 4th. But I think PG13 had three unforced turnovers almost in a row during the last three minutes - that killed us.

Having a second year player who got no real minutes until this year... in the final minutes of a game in which the last basket wins? Mann is not Doncic - I can't believe he was left in the game.

I am devastated by the loss, I really thought Charles Barkley was right - that mavs would not win another game.

On to the next game. I am a fan. I look for the next win, not the next loss.

Reading the defeatism in so many posts is sad. It's not illogical (cite the stat that about 80% of the time, the 5th game winner after a 2-2 tie wins the series). But until we lose the series, I'll watch and root.

Rondo had that one play where hew was behind Luka, but otherwise I thought him, Kawhi and Mann did a decent job on him. Mann especially did pretty strong work.

100% agreed on PG, an absolute nightmare in the 4th quarter. A choke artist.

Mann should have been playing the last 10 games instead of washed up Bev vs. as you said .. the last few minutes of a big game. wtf. What do apple expect.

I sensed a lot more defeatism after being down 2-0, I'll root for them but if they try to sell us on another year of Kawhi-PG next year. No no. No no no no. No one should buy that or support that ticket next season. Changes need to be made and it starts with __

[MartinToVaught]

Even if somehow we win this series, we'll get swept by the Jazz.

At this point, I'd rather just lose this series. That at least might force some actual major changes, such as firing the entire front office. We clearly didn't change enough from last season.

Seriously?

What exactly does getting swept by the Jazz do for this team, other than maybe delay the tough choices that this franchise inevitably has to make for another year?

[RingColluder]

At this point, I'd rather just lose this series. That at least might force some actual major changes, such as firing the entire front office. We clearly didn't change enough from last season.

Seriously?

What exactly does getting swept by the Jazz do for this team, other than maybe delay the tough choices that this franchise inevitably has to make for another year?

If we don't make the finals let alone this series massive change needs to be made. GM, Max player, and anyone else we can get rid of. I'm not sure how Frank defends this entire season if he keeps his job OR pitches anything involving the two max guys as "the answer" after this season.

[MartinToVaught]

So now you'r ignoring his 3 (!!) turnovers which led 7 points, he did lose the game combining both of the turnovers and minutes he was out bc of dumb fouls. You can play with heart and still make awful low IQ basketball plays, TMann plays with heart and made probably not the smartest play to end the game.

I'm not ignoring anything. I literally said earlier in the thread that he had some rough moments and that the fouls were stupid. Regardless, he was one of the only players who showed up in the fourth quarter. He was one of the only players who didn't give up after the Mavs raced out to that 7-0 lead to start the game. Even with his fouls and turnovers, we still would have won this game regardless if Kawhi or Morris had bothered showing up.

PG already gets tons of criticism for his playoff track record, and rightfully so, but that doesn't mean we need to keep putting all the blame on him even in games where he's far from our biggest problem.

Please do not purposely mislead on my opinions. I have NEVER said Morris should surpass PG, I said the shot distribution needed to change when PG was taking his deep contested 2's for an extra 5 shots a game. That's incorrect what you are saying.

You specifically wanted Morris to start getting more shots than PG. You even had a signature declaring that Kawhi, Morris and Mann were the team's "big three." If the team had actually taken your advice, they would have been swept. As inconsistent as PG can be, Morris is consistently awful.

Either be all on board or not, the defense of some players while also saying, "they need to be traded" is "pretty bizarre".

Just because I'm defending PG on this one particular game doesn't mean I suddenly think he's worth the contract or that we can win with him. I'm just also not agenda-driven to the point of ignoring what's actually happening on the court so I can blame everything on the players I dislike.

[Quake Griffin]

I don't even view it as defeatism.

Unless the Clippers come back and win the championship, this is just realism. They don't look like a team poised to win a championship and nothing about their culture over the last 2 seasons suggests that they are gearing up to be a championship level team.

I will gladly wear egg on my face if this team comes back to win a ring. Put it on there for me...please.

Does tanking for playoff seeding look like what a championship contender does?
Does losing 3 home games in the playoffs look like what a championship contender does?
Does choking in big moments during the last two seasons look like what a championship contender does?

There has been one 4 seed in our league history to win a ring (69 Celtics). There is one 6 seed (95 Rockets). Three 3 seeds (2011 mavs, 1973 Knicks, 2004 Pistons).
With this in mind, you'd think a championship level team would understand, championship runs are usually runs made by the 1 or 2 seed in their conference.
Clippers? Meh, even though our franchise has never had the one seed, let's arrogantly pretend we're strong minded enough to do this whole thing from the 4 seed. Does that look championship level to you?


Not me.

We deserve a 60+ win season.
A #1 seed.
An easy 1st round sweep or 5 game series.
And AT LEAST a trip to the CF.

Every other franchise can backdoor their way to a conference finals. The freaking Timberwolves have been to the CF. The Memphis Grizzlies have made a damn CF. Wtf.

[TrueLAfan]

Did you not recognize the difference in aggression and play from the Mavericks offense once PG left the game? They played like it was a G League game and attacked at will.

Again, Ty Lue is the one who specifically called out PG's dumb foul for the REASON they lost. And the Clippers broadcasters. This is not me saying something that the men getting paid to report on the Clippers aren't saying too

Actually, Lue’s comment was/is:

“PG getting his fourth foul really hurt us, he came out and we asked Kawhi to do a lot and he got a little tired.”

It did hurt us; Paul George was the best Clipper on the floor last night. But you’re acting like the collapse in the final three minutes of the third is his fault. The failures of others are not his responsibility. Kawhi committed three turnovers and missed three shots in the final six minutes of the third quarter. That’s on him, not PG. But the main takeaway is this; nobody played well in the final minutes of the third quarter. I mean, you’re essentially saying PG is our most valuable player and that without him, Dallas could do whatever they wanted, and our offense completely and utterly collapsed—and I’m sure that isn’t your intention. Anyway, trying to blame the play of the players on the court on a guy who isn’t on the court is … wrong. (And, frankly, weird.) The Clippers did fine without PG for 3 minutes--the Clippers built their largest lead of the game a minute or so after PG went out--and horribly for 3 minutes. You can’t separate the two because of arbitrary personal dislike.

Random thoughts:

I give credit to the team crawling back into the game late in the 4th. But I think PG13 had three unforced turnovers almost in a row during the last three minutes - that killed us.

In the final six minutes, PG went 2-5 and had 4 points, 4 rebounds, an assist and 2 turnovers (one with 6:13 left, one with 3:07 left). There were no three turnovers in the final three minutes. Actually, PG was kind of a force overall in the fourth: 10 points on six shots, 6 boards, and 2 blocks. Got to the line with his aggressiveness. He was by far our leading scorer and rebounder. Let’s be real here.

[RingColluder]

So now you'r ignoring his 3 (!!) turnovers which led 7 points, he did lose the game combining both of the turnovers and minutes he was out bc of dumb fouls. You can play with heart and still make awful low IQ basketball plays, TMann plays with heart and made probably not the smartest play to end the game.

I'm not ignoring anything. I literally said earlier in the thread that he had some rough moments and that the fouls were stupid. Regardless, he was one of the only players who showed up in the fourth quarter. He was one of the only players who didn't give up after the Mavs raced out to that 7-0 lead to start the game. Even with his fouls and turnovers, we still would have won this game regardless if Kawhi or Morris had bothered showing up.

PG already gets tons of criticism for his playoff track record, and rightfully so, but that doesn't mean we need to keep putting all the blame on him even in games where he's far from our biggest problem.

Please do not purposely mislead on my opinions. I have NEVER said Morris should surpass PG, I said the shot distribution needed to change when PG was taking his deep contested 2's for an extra 5 shots a game. That's incorrect what you are saying.

You specifically wanted Morris to start getting more shots than PG. You even had a signature declaring that Kawhi, Morris and Mann were the team's "big three." If the team had actually taken your advice, they would have been swept. As inconsistent as PG can be, Morris is consistently awful.

Either be all on board or not, the defense of some players while also saying, "they need to be traded" is "pretty bizarre".

Just because I'm defending PG on this one particular game doesn't mean I suddenly think he's worth the contract or that we can win with him. I'm just also not agenda-driven to the point of ignoring what's actually happening on the court so I can blame everything on the players I dislike.

how many points did he score in the 4th? His 3 turnovers negate anything positive he did in the 4th when it mattered most, bc they led to 7 easy points for the Masv. Are we just giving brownie points now for effort? If that's the case Terrence Mann should get plenty of them, but I haven't heard anyone say a nice word about him in this thread despite his solid defense on Luka. TMann, Kawhi and sorta Rondo were they only one's that gave Luka trouble. If you think the biggest issue was Kawhi missing 4 more shots than PG rather than that awful 3rd quarter stretch you're disagreeing with Lue and the Clippers broadcasters.

As stated before, I was very satisfied with PG's games in 2, 3 and 4. Game 1 and this game he was a major issue and the reason we lost. That doesn't take away from his 2-4 games.

I miss that signature, which has somehow mysteriously gone missing lol. And yes, I wanted Morris to get MORE shots - point me where I said he should get more shots than PG? The issue was that he was taking low IQ shots for deep contested 2's early in the shot clock that could have been going instead to a player like Morris, OR since he's bene bad this series even dare I say Reggie Jackson or Batum.


I agree, Morris has been a major disappointment and does not understand his role at all this playoff series. Its' sad to see. One of the all time great 3pt % shooting seasons in NBA history (31st ALL TIME) and sadly just doesn't have it this stretch. Tough to see, but had his role been better in the RS it would've helped, just like with Mann.


Has anyone noticed too that are most successful game which I have been ADVOCATING fro all season (driving to the rim, drawing contact) we did absolutely 0 of in the RS and just started doing it when down 2-0? Same with TMann who consistenly got DNP's the last 20 games of the season all to just be a "desperation move" which I again called when they needed him most? All of these errors in judgement are the result of Ty Lue failing to plant seeds in the RS.

I'm not agenda driven either - you're choosing to disagree with not only myself, but Ty Lue woh never criticizes PG ever and the Clippers broadcasters. At the end of the day, for specifically game 5 (not game 4 or 3 since I have to say it again) he was the reason we lost.

[RingColluder]

Did you not recognize the difference in aggression and play from the Mavericks offense once PG left the game? They played like it was a G League game and attacked at will.

Again, Ty Lue is the one who specifically called out PG's dumb foul for the REASON they lost. And the Clippers broadcasters. This is not me saying something that the men getting paid to report on the Clippers aren't saying too

Actually, Lue’s comment was/is:

“PG getting his fourth foul really hurt us, he came out and we asked Kawhi to do a lot and he got a little tired.”

It did hurt us; Paul George was the best Clipper on the floor last night. But you’re acting like the collapse in the final three minutes of the third is his fault. The failures of others are not his responsibility. Kawhi committed three turnovers and missed three shots in the final six minutes of the third quarter. That’s on him, not PG. But the main takeaway is this; nobody played well in the final minutes of the third quarter. I mean, you’re essentially saying PG is our most valuable player and that without him, Dallas could do whatever they wanted, and our offense completely and utterly collapsed—and I’m sure that isn’t your intention. Anyway, trying to blame the play of the players on the court on a guy who isn’t on the court is … wrong. (And, frankly, weird.) The Clippers did fine without PG for 3 minutes--the Clippers built their largest lead of the game a minute or so after PG went out--and horribly for 3 minutes. You can’t separate the two because of arbitrary personal dislike.

Random thoughts:

I give credit to the team crawling back into the game late in the 4th. But I think PG13 had three unforced turnovers almost in a row during the last three minutes - that killed us.

In the final six minutes, PG went 2-5 and had 4 points, 4 rebounds, an assist and 2 turnovers (one with 6:13 left, one with 3:07 left). There were no three turnovers in the final three minutes. Actually, PG was kind of a force overall in the fourth: 10 points on six shots, 6 boards, and 2 blocks. Got to the line with his aggressiveness. He was by far our leading scorer and rebounder. Let’s be real here.

Did you watch the whole press conference? Where else was Ty Lue critical of any other specific player? Did you watch the Clippers broadcast after PG got his 2nd foul in the 2nd quarter?

And yes it's his failure as a VETERAN and LEADER of this tema not to pick up dumb fouls that the Mavs capitalized on. Look at how the Mavs defense changed once PG left, of course Kawhi is going to get doubled and defined differently when Rondo is the replacement and there are no legit other offensive options on the court.

And I am saying that at that point in the game: We needed PG desperately in that 3rd quarter and he made low IQ plays like the Nuggets series that ruined his chances of helping us when we needed it. That's 100% what I'm saying at that point. Him faltering with 3 awful TO's in the 4th is a different story bc he turns into a different player when it matters most. Are there stats, but I'm pretty sure PG is most effective in 3rd quarters (total assumption but based on watching every sginelg game).

And yes if you include the ENTIRE length of 6 minutes when PG was out - it was an awful stretch bc he wasn't there. You're separating the two as well to make a biased point, the last 3 minutes were WAY WROSE than the supposedly "good" 3 minute stretch was. In TOTAL, it was a disaster he was out then because of his intelligence on the court, or lack there of.


So yes, based on his play in games 2-4 that is 100% my intention with my point what you stated above. That must change your thesis completely. My issue with PG's skill is when it matters most as we saw in the 4th quarter, he played very nice in the 1st and 2nd quarters which is why we needed him there.