2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[MO12msu]

In order of preference to win the whole thing:

Suns
Bucks
Jazz
Nuggets
Sixers
Mavs
Clippers
Hawks (lol)





Nets

[Doctor MJ]

He left Toronto, because he wanted to go back to playing near his hometown...that's basically it. Nothing more, nonething less. Winning isn't the only thing these guys care about. They are human beings with interests outside of basketball. Lebron chose LA not because it was necessarily the best place to win, but because of Hollywood, and wanting to build a bigger brand.

I’m not disagreeing that he specifically chose to come play in SoCal because SoCal, but he forced his team to trade more assets than any team ever to get PG before he signed.

That means:
1. He doesn’t get to hide behind the idea that he wasn’t focused on winning.

2. We have a direct window into Kawhi’s idea of “how to win”, and it’s wrongheaded in a very “individual talents are what matter” way which reinforces what we see from Kawhi as a player and as an employee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think individual talents matter an immense amount in winning. If Paul George was a top 5-7 player in 2020 like he was in 2019 then we may have seen a different champion in 2020 (Alright, they weren't beating the Lakers). Instead Paul George was what--a top 25 player last year? The Clippers lost to a team with 2 of the 3 best players in the series (Jokic/Murray).

I do agree in some respects to the statement. I think he looked at the 2019 Raptors and thought "Wow, Paul George is significantly better than anyone on this team I just won with. If I can land him as a teammate then we are going to steamroller the league". Kawhi was clearly ignoring the culture and sheer depth of that team, which he has also ignored when he was with the Spurs and hasn't done a good job of building culture with the Clippers either.

Kawhi reminds me of a guy who is simply out of touch with how culture can affect a work setting.

Honestly I really marvel that Kawhi was on the 2014 Spurs, the ultimate "no superstar" team of the modern era. I consider it incredibly damning about him that he never understood the importance of team basketball even after that. Most people that ignorant have never seen how a great team works. It requires someone special to still not get it after all that.

Re: If George had been a Top 3 player in the Nuggets series. Right but this was the first time he was trying to play as the 2nd best volume scoring small forward on a team with no great point guard, shooting guard, power forward, or center on the roster. It really shouldn't be a surprise that he struggled to find his niche.

Here's something I'll say though:

I don't want to make it seem like I said the Clippers were going to fall short ahead of time. I tend not to make bold prognostications as I tend to see the world in terms of possibilities. What I saw ahead of time was that this was a bet that having two "apex wings" and a supporting cast proven to be playoff-worthy in their own right right was "all you need". A bet that the game was simpler than people claimed it was. A bet that Pop & Nurse didn't matter as much as folks might thing. A bet that Kawhi was truly inevitable.

I won't be utterly shocked if the Clippers end up getting rings with the Kawhi-PG core even now, because I saw how good they looked at times this year when guys were hitting those 3's. But I think we do know that this team needed to be better thought out than it was, and the truth is I think the Clipper execs were worried about this from the moment Kawhi pointed to PG's name and said "Get me him". They built a team to get Kawhi rather than to build around Kawhi, because that's what Kawhi made them do, and so they are still figuring things out.

Last note: The Brooklyn Nets may be in the process of appearing to make things go in the opposite direction. While I'd point out that the Nets were really, really smart to make sure to keep Joe Harris around as a perfect sidekick to the superstars, really, really, really smart to get rid of D'Angelo Russell rather than falling in love with him the way the Knicks probably would have done, I do think it's clear that Kyrie & KD didn't think things through considerably more than Kawhi did, and yet it may not only work out for them, but it may be in the process of completely breaking the game with an offensive effectiveness I'm still trying to wrap my mind around.

[Doctor MJ]

In order of preference to win the whole thing:

Suns
Bucks
Jazz
Nuggets
Sixers
Mavs
Clippers
Hawks (lol)





Nets

If by this you're saying you really want to see the Nets lose, yup, me too. We may both end up shaking our heads in disappointment reaching for our liquor of choice though.

[Doctor MJ]

The mass freakout about the Lakers getting Andre Drummond of all people looks even funnier in retrospect

I continue to marvel at the way Drummond's been repeatedly overrated. It really doesn't take much to get people thinking "superstar" when you look like he does.

[Doctor MJ]

So now that my team is out of the playoffs, I guess I'm going to bandwagon a team?

Go Nuggets?

I'm cheering for them. Love to watch them play.

[MO12msu]

In order of preference to win the whole thing:

Suns
Bucks
Jazz
Nuggets
Sixers
Mavs
Clippers
Hawks (lol)





Nets

If by this you're saying you really want to see the Nets lose, yup, me too. We may both end up shaking our heads in disappointment reaching for our liquor of choice though.

Correct and agree. I think the Bucks-Nets winner is winning the whole thing and unfortunately I’d give the Nets the edge there. The offensive talent is just insane.

[Colbinii]

I’m not disagreeing that he specifically chose to come play in SoCal because SoCal, but he forced his team to trade more assets than any team ever to get PG before he signed.

That means:
1. He doesn’t get to hide behind the idea that he wasn’t focused on winning.

2. We have a direct window into Kawhi’s idea of “how to win”, and it’s wrongheaded in a very “individual talents are what matter” way which reinforces what we see from Kawhi as a player and as an employee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think individual talents matter an immense amount in winning. If Paul George was a top 5-7 player in 2020 like he was in 2019 then we may have seen a different champion in 2020 (Alright, they weren't beating the Lakers). Instead Paul George was what--a top 25 player last year? The Clippers lost to a team with 2 of the 3 best players in the series (Jokic/Murray).

I do agree in some respects to the statement. I think he looked at the 2019 Raptors and thought "Wow, Paul George is significantly better than anyone on this team I just won with. If I can land him as a teammate then we are going to steamroller the league". Kawhi was clearly ignoring the culture and sheer depth of that team, which he has also ignored when he was with the Spurs and hasn't done a good job of building culture with the Clippers either.

Kawhi reminds me of a guy who is simply out of touch with how culture can affect a work setting.

Honestly I really marvel that Kawhi was on the 2014 Spurs, the ultimate "no superstar" team of the modern era. I consider it incredibly damning about him that he never understood the importance of team basketball even after that. Most people that ignorant have never seen how a great team works. It requires someone special to still not get it after all that.

Re: If George had been a Top 3 player in the Nuggets series. Right but this was the first time he was trying to play as the 2nd best volume scoring small forward on a team with no great point guard, shooting guard, power forward, or center on the roster. It really shouldn't be a surprise that he struggled to find his niche.

Here's something I'll say though:

I don't want to make it seem like I said the Clippers were going to fall short ahead of time. I tend not to make bold prognostications as I tend to see the world in terms of possibilities. What I saw ahead of time was that this was a bet that having two "apex wings" and a supporting cast proven to be playoff-worthy in their own right right was "all you need". A bet that the game was simpler than people claimed it was. A bet that Pop & Nurse didn't matter as much as folks might thing. A bet that Kawhi was truly inevitable.

I won't be utterly shocked if the Clippers end up getting rings with the Kawhi-PG core even now, because I saw how good they looked at times this year when guys were hitting those 3's. But I think we do know that this team needed to be better thought out than it was, and the truth is I think the Clipper execs were worried about this from the moment Kawhi pointed to PG's name and said "Get me him". They built a team to get Kawhi rather than to build around Kawhi, because that's what Kawhi made them do, and so they are still figuring things out.

Last note: The Brooklyn Nets may be in the process of appearing to make things go in the opposite direction. While I'd point out that the Nets were really, really smart to make sure to keep Joe Harris around as a perfect sidekick to the superstars, really, really, really smart to get rid of D'Angelo Russell rather than falling in love with him the way the Knicks probably would have done, I do think it's clear that Kyrie & KD didn't think things through considerably more than Kawhi did, and yet it may not only work out for them, but it may be in the process of completely breaking the game with an offensive effectiveness I'm still trying to wrap my mind around.

The Brooklyn Nets are going to shatter offensive records this post-season. They posted a 130 Ortg against Boston and are actually impossible to guard.

They run actions where its either a wide open 3 for Joe Harris (48% 3 PT shooter) or Durant/Harden/Kyrie driving to the rim on a favorable switch.

I wouldn't be surprised if they keep up a 125 Ortg throughout the post-season.

[70sFan]

Drummond is the type of player who wouldn't be a legit star in any era, but his big numbers would make him overrated in all eras. I imagine that some would call Drummond great center before three point line revolution, but he'd never be great.

[Dupp]

In order of preference to win the whole thing:

Suns
Bucks
Jazz
Nuggets
Sixers
Mavs
Clippers
Hawks (lol)





Nets

If by this you're saying you really want to see the Nets lose, yup, me too. We may both end up shaking our heads in disappointment reaching for our liquor of choice though.

Bucks are the only team that can stop them. If they win this series it’s a wrap.

[Dupp]

The mass freakout about the Lakers getting Andre Drummond of all people looks even funnier in retrospect

The freak out was warranted but it was for the reverse reason.


Vogel really blew it playing him so much. He got 0 minutes in an elimination game so he knew. Makes things more puzzling.

[MartinToVaught]

The mass freakout about the Lakers getting Andre Drummond of all people looks even funnier in retrospect

People freak out way too much over the buyout market in general. Like I say every year, these players are getting bought out for a reason. If a team is literally paying a player to leave during the season, you shouldn't expect much from that player.

[Fadeaway_J]

The mass freakout about the Lakers getting Andre Drummond of all people looks even funnier in retrospect

The freak out was warranted but it was for the reverse reason.


Vogel really blew it playing him so much. He got 0 minutes in an elimination game so he knew. Makes things more puzzling.

Locker-room politics I think.

[Dupp]

The mass freakout about the Lakers getting Andre Drummond of all people looks even funnier in retrospect

The freak out was warranted but it was for the reverse reason.


Vogel really blew it playing him so much. He got 0 minutes in an elimination game so he knew. Makes things more puzzling.

Locker-room politics I think.

That was the chatter apparently. AD pushing Drummond. Vogel do allow it in crucial games prior to game 6 is really poor though.


Also I dunno if it was ad that’s just what people have been saying. Might be completely wrong.

[Fadeaway_J]

The freak out was warranted but it was for the reverse reason.


Vogel really blew it playing him so much. He got 0 minutes in an elimination game so he knew. Makes things more puzzling.

Locker-room politics I think.

That was the chatter apparently. AD pushing Drummond. Vogel do allow it in crucial games prior to game 6 is really poor though.


Also I dunno if it was ad that’s just what people have been saying. Might be completely wrong.

My impression was that they promised him a starting job to get him to sign.

[therealbig3]

Forget you all, go Nets!

Lol.

People forget that Nets fans are just as miserable as any other fan of a perennial loser franchise, we deserve to see our team win just as much as they do lol. Knicks fans are constantly whining, but they’ve seen more success from their team than Nets fans have.

[Fadeaway_J]

Forget you all, go Nets!

Lol.

People forget that Nets fans are just as miserable as any other fan of a perennial loser franchise, we deserve to see our team win just as much as they do lol. Knicks fans are constantly whining, but they’ve seen more success from their team than Nets fans have.

Depends on what age they are!

[Texas Chuck]

The mass freakout about the Lakers getting Andre Drummond of all people looks even funnier in retrospect

I continue to marvel at the way Drummond's been repeatedly overrated. It really doesn't take much to get people thinking "superstar" when you look like he does.

Both of you please join me in my weekly reminder on the Trade Board that buyout guys don't decide champions. Or series winners. Or much of anything. And Drummond was the poster child of a huge swath of posters saying the league was ruined because the superstar teams got Blake, LMA, and DRummond. LMA sadly had to retire, Drummond was a clear net negative, and Blake has been a solid role player but who I expect an ever decreasing role for now that as long as they last they will only face good teams.

So I keep trying to get them to acknowledge how badly they were wrong and how we go through this every single year and every year none of these players turn series but because the Lakers and Nets signed big names this year we had a total meltdown. None of them are owning up though....

[eminence]

I’d go with:
Jazz
Bucks
Nuggets
Hawks
Suns
Mavs
Clippers
Sixers
Nets

[Fadeaway_J]

The mass freakout about the Lakers getting Andre Drummond of all people looks even funnier in retrospect

I continue to marvel at the way Drummond's been repeatedly overrated. It really doesn't take much to get people thinking "superstar" when you look like he does.

Both of you please join me in my weekly reminder on the Trade Board that buyout guys don't decide champions. Or series winners. Or much of anything. And Drummond was the poster child of a huge swath of posters saying the league was ruined because the superstar teams got Blake, LMA, and DRummond. LMA sadly had to retire, Drummond was a clear net negative, and Blake has been a solid role player but who I expect an ever decreasing role for now that as long as they last they will only face good teams.

So I keep trying to get them to acknowledge how badly they were wrong and how we go through this every single year and every year none of these players turn series but because the Lakers and Nets signed big names this year we had a total meltdown. None of them are owning up though....

It's wild how the buyout market became a minor crisis over guys like Drummond and Blake. Makes you wonder how many "fans" actually pay attention to the league.

Markieff last year is the best-case scenario for a typical buyout guy - useful enough but hardly tipping the NBA's balance of power.

[Texas Chuck]

Markieff last year is the best-case scenario for a typical buyout guy - useful enough but hardly tipping the NBA's balance of power.

yeah Bucks did pretty well in recent years getting Wes Matthews and Marvin Williams as guys who came in and gave them some solid role playing minutes. Peja helped Dallas a bit in the title year but by the Finals lost his minutes to Cardinal. Sixers got Ilyasova and Belinelli one year who both helped a bit. But none of these guys are swinging things.

Rivers is probably the best guy this year and it took him quite a while to find a spot, but Denver is so desperate for guards that even a guy with his limitations is helping them.

But Drummond is just bad at basketball so that one was especially wild. And while Blake and LMA have some skills they were going to a team who already had a ridiculous offense and neither guy was going to help them defensively so....

I do not get it.