Compare Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon careers

[migya]

Basis of this topic is to find out how much truth there is in players' career value due to team success and how their teammates or to the point, the talent and performance of their teammates, contributed to that success. To illustrate we compare the careers of four alltime great Centers whose careers overlapped very much; Shaq, Ewing, Robinson and Olajuwon.

Main point here is how Shaq ONLY won championships because he had another star teammate., Robinson also but to lesser extent over career. There was nice role players but it's that star teammate that lead to being able to get those championships.


Shaq had Penny at his peak on 1995 and 1996 and got to the finals and ECF, beaten only by Olajuwon and near and of career Drexler, and Jordan's arguably greatest alltime team Bulls. He then had prime Kobe and arguably greatest coach ever Phil Jackson and win three straight championships.He then win one more with young star Wade.

Replace Shaq with each one of the other three Centers and likely they win as much, maybe more.


Robinson, Ewing and Olajuwon were lone stars on their teams most of their careers. The Knicks got a great coach in Riley who knew they didn't have the players too be offensively competent, so he devised a grinding defense style. Olajuwon had mediocre guards and limited bigs next to him and a very good coach in Tomjanovich. Robinson had limited guards, two bit bigs and average at best coaches until Pop and Duncan came. With another real star each one could have beaten Jordan, who had Pippen, two or three good role players and great coach.


Make the appropriate comparison using what means is necessary. Conclusion being; What is the truth of real value of a player's career when everything is really even, if they had the same relative situation?

[Dutchball97]

You're saying Ewing > Shaq because Shaq only ever won anything because of the star guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade) he played with? You're saying Ewing would do better than Shaq on those teams and your main argument for that seems to be that the Knicks had a good coach???

[migya]

You're saying Ewing > Shaq because Shaq only ever won anything because of the star guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade) he played with? You're saying Ewing would do better than Shaq on those teams and your main argument for that seems to be that the Knicks had a good coach???

Replace Shaq with prime Ewing on Shaq's teams, for arguments sake, the results could be the same. Ewing the better defender had a great jump shot, changes the team game plan but no less effective.

[Dutchball97]

You're saying Ewing > Shaq because Shaq only ever won anything because of the star guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade) he played with? You're saying Ewing would do better than Shaq on those teams and your main argument for that seems to be that the Knicks had a good coach???

Replace Shaq with prime Ewing on Shaq's teams, for arguments sake, the results could be the same. Ewing the better defender had a great jump shot, changes the team game plan but no less effective.

Shaq made the finals with the Magic at 22 years old, Ewing's rookie season was at 23. Ewing also peaked nowhere close to Lakers Shaq. I don't see them threepeating.

[HeartBreakKid]

You're saying Ewing > Shaq because Shaq only ever won anything because of the star guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade) he played with? You're saying Ewing would do better than Shaq on those teams and your main argument for that seems to be that the Knicks had a good coach???

Replace Shaq with prime Ewing on Shaq's teams, for arguments sake, the results could be the same. Ewing the better defender had a great jump shot, changes the team game plan but no less effective.

Shaq made the finals with the Magic at 22 years old, Ewing's rookie season was at 23. Ewing also peaked nowhere close to Lakers Shaq. I don't see them threepeating.

He had a lot of good players to play with. That certainly helps.

[Dutchball97]

Replace Shaq with prime Ewing on Shaq's teams, for arguments sake, the results could be the same. Ewing the better defender had a great jump shot, changes the team game plan but no less effective.

Shaq made the finals with the Magic at 22 years old, Ewing's rookie season was at 23. Ewing also peaked nowhere close to Lakers Shaq. I don't see them threepeating.

He had a lot of good players to play with. That certainly helps.

It helps but migya said the only reason for Shaq's success was his teammates and that's simply not true. You could replace 2000 Shaq with any center in the history of the NBA and I'm not sure any of them would have the same impact as him, implying peak Ewing would be an upgrade over 2000 Shaq is a pretty insane take to me. It both massively underrates Shaq's defense and overrates Ewing's offense.

[migya]

Shaq made the finals with the Magic at 22 years old, Ewing's rookie season was at 23. Ewing also peaked nowhere close to Lakers Shaq. I don't see them threepeating.

He had a lot of good players to play with. That certainly helps.

It helps but migya said the only reason for Shaq's success was his teammates and that's simply not true. You could replace 2000 Shaq with any center in the history of the NBA and I'm not sure any of them would have the same impact as him, implying peak Ewing would be an upgrade over 2000 Shaq is a pretty insane take to me. It both massively underrates Shaq's defense and overrates Ewing's offense.

What I said was that any of the three Centers would also win championships with the teams Shaq had.

[No-more-rings]

You're saying Ewing > Shaq because Shaq only ever won anything because of the star guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade) he played with? You're saying Ewing would do better than Shaq on those teams and your main argument for that seems to be that the Knicks had a good coach???

Replace Shaq with prime Ewing on Shaq's teams, for arguments sake, the results could be the same. Ewing the better defender had a great jump shot, changes the team game plan but no less effective.

I definitely disagree. Ewing doesn't provide enough offensive lift for them to have beaten teams like the Blazers, Kings and Spurs out west. He would've made their defense better obviously, but Ewing plus young Kobe and some fringe role players isn't winning any titles.

The Spurs frontline would've made Ewing a non factor on offense, and Portland would've made things tough for him as well.

[70sFan]

I love Pat and I dislike Shaq, but O'Neal was clearly better player than Ewing...

[MartinToVaught]

DRob is the only one in that group who has a legitimate gripe about his supporting casts. By the time they got Duncan, he was in his 30s, coming off serious back and foot injuries, and had to take a step back and be the second star. If the lottery balls hadn't gone in the Spurs' favor, they probably would have never gotten him the help he needed.

[70sFan]

DRob is the only one in that group who has a legitimate gripe about his supporting casts. By the time they got Duncan, he was in his 30s, coming off serious back and foot injuries, and had to take a step back and be the second star. If the lottery balls hadn't gone in the Spurs' favor, they probably would have never gotten him the help he needed.

Well, Hakeem and Ewing didn't play with world beaters for most of their careers either. Hakeem finally got a good supporting cast after almost decade from his first finals run. Ewing never played with talented rosters on offensive end, he had to do more than he should on that end.

Shaq is on the opposite side, he rarely if ever played on mediocre teams.

[FC93]

DRob is the only one in that group who has a legitimate gripe about his supporting casts. By the time they got Duncan, he was in his 30s, coming off serious back and foot injuries, and had to take a step back and be the second star. If the lottery balls hadn't gone in the Spurs' favor, they probably would have never gotten him the help he needed.

Well, Hakeem and Ewing didn't play with world beaters for most of their careers either. Hakeem finally got a good supporting cast after almost decade from his first finals run. Ewing never played with talented rosters on offensive end, he had to do more than he should on that end.

Shaq is on the opposite side, he rarely if ever played on mediocre teams.

Part of that is that Shaq was a much, much better player than Ewing and quite a bit better than Robinson too, so it would be harder to have a mediocre team with Shaq on it than to have a mediocre team with Ewing on it. I'm not sure the Lakers make it out of the West three years in a row with one of those other guys. I'm positive that they don't with Ewing.

[migya]

You're saying Ewing > Shaq because Shaq only ever won anything because of the star guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade) he played with? You're saying Ewing would do better than Shaq on those teams and your main argument for that seems to be that the Knicks had a good coach???

Replace Shaq with prime Ewing on Shaq's teams, for arguments sake, the results could be the same. Ewing the better defender had a great jump shot, changes the team game plan but no less effective.

I definitely disagree. Ewing doesn't provide enough offensive lift for them to have beaten teams like the Blazers, Kings and Spurs out west. He would've made their defense better obviously, but Ewing plus young Kobe and some fringe role players isn't winning any titles.

The Spurs frontline would've made Ewing a non factor on offense, and Portland would've made things tough for him as well.

Noone else was allowed to barge through others like Shaq was. Without that he is not a star player, plain and simple. Ewing was one of the most skilled scorers of his era and among Centers alltime. He had non offensive players starting on his team and only Houston and Sprewell were consistently good scorers for multiple seasons and that was at the end of his career. Penny was a star who was better than anyone Ewing ever had, same for Kobe and Wade. Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott were better outside shooters with volume than anyone Ewing had. Eddie Jones and Van Exel were better scorers than anyone Ewing had besides Houston and maybe Sprewell. Elden Campbell was a very good PF also.

Shaq had great teams whereas the other three Centers didn't, plain and simple and those other three still managed to make their teams contenders most seasons.

[G35]

DRob is the only one in that group who has a legitimate gripe about his supporting casts. By the time they got Duncan, he was in his 30s, coming off serious back and foot injuries, and had to take a step back and be the second star. If the lottery balls hadn't gone in the Spurs' favor, they probably would have never gotten him the help he needed.

Well, Hakeem and Ewing didn't play with world beaters for most of their careers either. Hakeem finally got a good supporting cast after almost decade from his first finals run. Ewing never played with talented rosters on offensive end, he had to do more than he should on that end.

Shaq is on the opposite side, he rarely if ever played on mediocre teams.

Part of that is that Shaq was a much, much better player than Ewing and quite a bit better than Robinson too, so it would be harder to have a mediocre team with Shaq on it than to have a mediocre team with Ewing on it. I'm not sure the Lakers make it out of the West three years in a row with one of those other guys. I'm positive that they don't with Ewing.

I disagree that Shaq was that much better than DRob or Olajuwon. Many people equate dominance to greatness or how well they would fit on a team.

Shaq had the best talent out of all those centers...by far. Even DRob with Tim Duncan trails Shaq in terms of talent played with.

Penny
Kobe
Wade
Nash
Lebron

That is up there with the best any player has ever played with. Also Shaq didn't turn around the Magic the way DRob turned around the Spurs. The Spurs went from a 21 win team, missing the playoffs to the next year with DRob, being a 56 win team and getting to the 2nd round. Which is no small feat...it took legendary Kevin Garnett eight years to get out of the first round.

Orlando had the unbelievable luck of having back to back #1 picks which turned into Shaq and Penny...they could have had Chris Webber but they wanted to try recreate the Kareem/Magic dynamic. But Shaq never had to really struggle on a team with no other All NBA talent like those other greats did.....

[FC93]

Well, Hakeem and Ewing didn't play with world beaters for most of their careers either. Hakeem finally got a good supporting cast after almost decade from his first finals run. Ewing never played with talented rosters on offensive end, he had to do more than he should on that end.

Shaq is on the opposite side, he rarely if ever played on mediocre teams.

Part of that is that Shaq was a much, much better player than Ewing and quite a bit better than Robinson too, so it would be harder to have a mediocre team with Shaq on it than to have a mediocre team with Ewing on it. I'm not sure the Lakers make it out of the West three years in a row with one of those other guys. I'm positive that they don't with Ewing.

I disagree that Shaq was that much better than DRob or Olajuwon. Many people equate dominance to greatness or how well they would fit on a team.

Shaq had the best talent out of all those centers...by far. Even DRob with Tim Duncan trails Shaq in terms of talent played with.

Penny
Kobe
Wade
Nash
Lebron

That is up there with the best any player has ever played with. Also Shaq didn't turn around the Magic the way DRob turned around the Spurs. The Spurs went from a 21 win team, missing the playoffs to the next year with DRob, being a 56 win team and getting to the 2nd round. Which is no small feat...it took legendary Kevin Garnett eight years to get out of the first round.

Orlando had the unbelievable luck of having back to back #1 picks which turned into Shaq and Penny...they could have had Chris Webber but they wanted to try recreate the Kareem/Magic dynamic. But Shaq never had to really struggle on a team with no other All NBA talent like those other greats did.....

I left out Olajuwon from the first sentence on purpose; he and Shaq are the same tier. As for Robinson, he was very great, but it isn't like that 35 win improvement was all him; Terry Cummings was a good player, as were Strickland/Cheeks. That said, his rookie year *was* better than Shaq's. You're right that Shaq never had to struggle without all-NBA talent, but it's not like he had that talent and took them only a little further than those other guys - he took them to a 3peat. Maybe the Lakers win those titles with Robinson (they probably beat the Nets/Sixers/Pacers, but making it out of the West is tougher), but they don't even get to the Finals with Ewing instead. (With Hakeem they're in the money).

[dygaction]

Well, Hakeem and Ewing didn't play with world beaters for most of their careers either. Hakeem finally got a good supporting cast after almost decade from his first finals run. Ewing never played with talented rosters on offensive end, he had to do more than he should on that end.

Shaq is on the opposite side, he rarely if ever played on mediocre teams.

Part of that is that Shaq was a much, much better player than Ewing and quite a bit better than Robinson too, so it would be harder to have a mediocre team with Shaq on it than to have a mediocre team with Ewing on it. I'm not sure the Lakers make it out of the West three years in a row with one of those other guys. I'm positive that they don't with Ewing.

I disagree that Shaq was that much better than DRob or Olajuwon. Many people equate dominance to greatness or how well they would fit on a team.

Shaq had the best talent out of all those centers...by far. Even DRob with Tim Duncan trails Shaq in terms of talent played with.

Penny
Kobe
Wade
Nash
Lebron

That is up there with the best any player has ever played with. Also Shaq didn't turn around the Magic the way DRob turned around the Spurs. The Spurs went from a 21 win team, missing the playoffs to the next year with DRob, being a 56 win team and getting to the 2nd round. Which is no small feat...it took legendary Kevin Garnett eight years to get out of the first round.

Orlando had the unbelievable luck of having back to back #1 picks which turned into Shaq and Penny...they could have had Chris Webber but they wanted to try recreate the Kareem/Magic dynamic. But Shaq never had to really struggle on a team with no other All NBA talent like those other greats did.....

DRob did not turn Spurs better than Shaq did to Magic in their early days. He truly turned around Spurs by tanking to get Duncan...

[migya]

Part of that is that Shaq was a much, much better player than Ewing and quite a bit better than Robinson too, so it would be harder to have a mediocre team with Shaq on it than to have a mediocre team with Ewing on it. I'm not sure the Lakers make it out of the West three years in a row with one of those other guys. I'm positive that they don't with Ewing.

I disagree that Shaq was that much better than DRob or Olajuwon. Many people equate dominance to greatness or how well they would fit on a team.

Shaq had the best talent out of all those centers...by far. Even DRob with Tim Duncan trails Shaq in terms of talent played with.

Penny
Kobe
Wade
Nash
Lebron

That is up there with the best any player has ever played with. Also Shaq didn't turn around the Magic the way DRob turned around the Spurs. The Spurs went from a 21 win team, missing the playoffs to the next year with DRob, being a 56 win team and getting to the 2nd round. Which is no small feat...it took legendary Kevin Garnett eight years to get out of the first round.

Orlando had the unbelievable luck of having back to back #1 picks which turned into Shaq and Penny...they could have had Chris Webber but they wanted to try recreate the Kareem/Magic dynamic. But Shaq never had to really struggle on a team with no other All NBA talent like those other greats did.....

I left out Olajuwon from the first sentence on purpose; he and Shaq are the same tier. As for Robinson, he was very great, but it isn't like that 35 win improvement was all him; Terry Cummings was a good player, as were Strickland/Cheeks. That said, his rookie year *was* better than Shaq's. You're right that Shaq never had to struggle without all-NBA talent, but it's not like he had that talent and took them only a little further than those other guys - he took them to a 3peat. Maybe the Lakers win those titles with Robinson (they probably beat the Nets/Sixers/Pacers, but making it out of the West is tougher), but they don't even get to the Finals with Ewing instead. (With Hakeem they're in the money).

Compare the rosters around Ewing and Shaq for proper comparison. Only way to do it:

Shaq Orlando playoff teams, which means when Penny got there, from 1994 to 1996. Three years and then Shaq left;
Penny, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott and Horace Grant.

Ewing Knicks from 1993 (best regular season winning) to 1999 (second and last finals appearance);
1993-1998; Oakley, Starks, Derek Harper, Mason, then Chris Childs, Charlie Ward, Houston, LJ and Sprewell.
*Penny is by far the best and only superstar, noone else is regular allstar. Anderson is arguably better than Starks and not much less than both Houston and Sprewell, Horace is arguably better than Oakley and a better fit. Mason and LJ both weren't able to be their best behind Oakley or at SF and Dennis Scott was more effective in his role as great shooter, Derek Harper was at the end of his career and Childs and Ward were role players who wouldn't have been on most rosters.
= Shaq's Magic had much more talent and fit.


Shaq Lakers from 1997 to 2003;
Van Exel, Jones, Horry, Campbell, then Fisher, Kobe, Rice, Fox, Horry.
*Jones is the best talent until 1998, Van Exel is better than Knicks PGs by a large margin, Horry fit better than Knicks SFs, Campbell was arguably better than Oakley especially offensively, then Fisher was better than Knicks PGs, Rice was much better than Knicks SFs, Fox arguably also, Horry shared time at PF during threepeat with AC Green, Horace and Samaki Walker and together they were arguably as effective as Oakley.
= Shaq's Lakers were considerably better.


Shaq championship Miami 2006;
Wade, Haslem, Posey and Walker, Jason Williams and Payton.
*Wade is a superstar and much better than anyone on the Knicks, Haslem is arguably equal to Oakley, Posey and Antoine Walker are better than the SFs of Knicks, J Williams and aging Payton are slightly better than Knicks PGs.



Shaq had much better talent overall and had a superstar when he made the finals all five times.

[migya]

Part of that is that Shaq was a much, much better player than Ewing and quite a bit better than Robinson too, so it would be harder to have a mediocre team with Shaq on it than to have a mediocre team with Ewing on it. I'm not sure the Lakers make it out of the West three years in a row with one of those other guys. I'm positive that they don't with Ewing.

I disagree that Shaq was that much better than DRob or Olajuwon. Many people equate dominance to greatness or how well they would fit on a team.

Shaq had the best talent out of all those centers...by far. Even DRob with Tim Duncan trails Shaq in terms of talent played with.

Penny
Kobe
Wade
Nash
Lebron

That is up there with the best any player has ever played with. Also Shaq didn't turn around the Magic the way DRob turned around the Spurs. The Spurs went from a 21 win team, missing the playoffs to the next year with DRob, being a 56 win team and getting to the 2nd round. Which is no small feat...it took legendary Kevin Garnett eight years to get out of the first round.

Orlando had the unbelievable luck of having back to back #1 picks which turned into Shaq and Penny...they could have had Chris Webber but they wanted to try recreate the Kareem/Magic dynamic. But Shaq never had to really struggle on a team with no other All NBA talent like those other greats did.....

DRob did not turn Spurs better than Shaq did to Magic in their early days. He truly turned around Spurs by tanking to get Duncan...

Check the facts. Robinson had the Spurs contending every year until Duncan got there.

[dygaction]

I disagree that Shaq was that much better than DRob or Olajuwon. Many people equate dominance to greatness or how well they would fit on a team.

Shaq had the best talent out of all those centers...by far. Even DRob with Tim Duncan trails Shaq in terms of talent played with.

Penny
Kobe
Wade
Nash
Lebron

That is up there with the best any player has ever played with. Also Shaq didn't turn around the Magic the way DRob turned around the Spurs. The Spurs went from a 21 win team, missing the playoffs to the next year with DRob, being a 56 win team and getting to the 2nd round. Which is no small feat...it took legendary Kevin Garnett eight years to get out of the first round.

Orlando had the unbelievable luck of having back to back #1 picks which turned into Shaq and Penny...they could have had Chris Webber but they wanted to try recreate the Kareem/Magic dynamic. But Shaq never had to really struggle on a team with no other All NBA talent like those other greats did.....

DRob did not turn Spurs better than Shaq did to Magic in their early days. He truly turned around Spurs by tanking to get Duncan...

Check the facts. Robinson had the Spurs contending every year until Duncan got there.

Meh, Shaq won 4 playoff series in 4 years in Orlando with one trip to the Finals.
DRob won 5 playoff series in 8 years, no Finals.

[G35]

DRob did not turn Spurs better than Shaq did to Magic in their early days. He truly turned around Spurs by tanking to get Duncan...

Check the facts. Robinson had the Spurs contending every year until Duncan got there.

Meh, Shaq won 4 playoff series in 4 years in Orlando with one trip to the Finals.
DRob won 5 playoff series in 8 years, no Finals.

So who did better vs Hakeem...Shaq or DRob in 1995?

That series between Hakeem and Drob was a legacy changing series for both DRob and Hakeem. DRob was the reigning MVP and he led the Spurs to 62 wins and the best record in the league...more wins than Orlando.

The Spurs and Rockets meet in the conference finals and Hakeem puts on a display of offensive wizardry and footwork that admittedly frustrated Robinson.

The Rockets won that series 4-2.

Here are the scores of that series:
G1 - Rockets win 94-93 (Rockets +1)
G2 - Rockets win 106-96 (Rockets +10)
G3 - Spurs win 107-102 (Spurs +5)
G4 - Spurs win 103-81 (Spurs +22)
G5 - Rockets win 111-90 (Rockets +21)
G6 - Rockets win 100-95 (Rockets +5)

Over this six game series, the Rockets are +10...that is nothing. This was very contested series, that could have went either, especially when you consider Rodman was a negative influence on the Spurs.

Then you look at the next series when the Rockets faced the Magic, Hakeem vs Shaq. The Rockets swept the Magic 4-0...Shaq could not even get them to win one game.

Here is the series breakdown:
G1 - Rockets win 120-118 (Rockets +2)
G2 - Rockets win 117-106 (Rockets +11)
G3 - Rockets win 106-103 (Rockets +3)
G4 - Rockets win 113-101 (Rockets +12)

The Rockets over a four game series are +28.

Shaq may get his numbers but his teams were always getting swept out by players who led better teams. Shaq needs a Kobe/Wade level player, because Shaq cannot win through his sheer dominance and was prone to getting swept out of the playoffs.....