The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ)

[god shammgod]

I am more worried about RJ and my concerns with him go back since he was in Duke. His upside seems to be a bit limited. Good player no doubt, but I don’t really see that all star talent that others see in him. More of a 3 and D guy with inconsistent defense.

My concerns with Randle have to do more from a mental standpoint that talent wise. He’s had phenomenal games during the season where he’s looked like Kawhi lite and was just unguardable. I don’t know if the crowd got to him in the playoffs, first playoffs jitters, or the Hawks just did a really good job of shutting him down but I still believe in his capabilities as a player.

Now with all of that said, both RJ and Randle are still good complimentary pieces to keep. But we need a true #1 option. We won’t reach anywhere until we get one.

You may end up right but when you consider his level of improvement from yr 1 to yr 2, it's still too soon to make that decision especially at his age barring some trade that you'd probably do even if you were happy with his play. He isn't untouchable if that's what you're asking but it's not like you wake up and say "damn, I gotta trade RJ today". More like "I'm always willing to listen".

But hes young, he did improve. This was his first playoff at 20 and it's not like he disappeared, he just played poorly.

We don't have a PG any of us consider adequate. Idk how that could just be brushed aside. It's not simply a player who's good. Rose scored like 22pts/game and it was useless. I'm talking about a guy who creates good baskets for teammates, creates a flow and pace and who themselves can shoot and help spread the floor. Doesn't mean RJ and Julius are great players despite the lack of a PG. But I'd rather judge players when a PG is in place and then hey......."I gave you everything you need and you still failed me"

Yeah I mean I am not looking to trade him unless it’s something you can’t turn down, like a Tatum or Luka trade. So I am definitely willing to be patient with him. I am just a bit concerned about his ceiling. Seems like people are comparing him to Middleton and that’s not a good sign, considering how bad Middleton has looked in these playoffs. But I agree, we should definitely get both RJ and Randle an actual PG before making any decisions on them.

who's the best "actual" point guard that you think we can get this summer ?

we're not getting paul or lowry. i mean maybe you can get lowry if you max him for 3 years but you'd be dumb to do that.
schroder is a scorer
lonzo is really a glorified 3 & d player who will throw a touchdown pass on the break once every other game and have people say "what a great passer"

good luck finding someone who is gonna get easy shots for those 2

[Fury]

I am more worried about RJ and my concerns with him go back since he was in Duke. His upside seems to be a bit limited. Good player no doubt, but I don’t really see that all star talent that others see in him. More of a 3 and D guy with inconsistent defense.

My concerns with Randle have to do more from a mental standpoint that talent wise. He’s had phenomenal games during the season where he’s looked like Kawhi lite and was just unguardable. I don’t know if the crowd got to him in the playoffs, first playoffs jitters, or the Hawks just did a really good job of shutting him down but I still believe in his capabilities as a player.

Now with all of that said, both RJ and Randle are still good complimentary pieces to keep. But we need a true #1 option. We won’t reach anywhere until we get one.

You may end up right but when you consider his level of improvement from yr 1 to yr 2, it's still too soon to make that decision especially at his age barring some trade that you'd probably do even if you were happy with his play. He isn't untouchable if that's what you're asking but it's not like you wake up and say "damn, I gotta trade RJ today". More like "I'm always willing to listen".

But hes young, he did improve. This was his first playoff at 20 and it's not like he disappeared, he just played poorly.

We don't have a PG any of us consider adequate. Idk how that could just be brushed aside. It's not simply a player who's good. Rose scored like 22pts/game and it was useless. I'm talking about a guy who creates good baskets for teammates, creates a flow and pace and who themselves can shoot and help spread the floor. Doesn't mean RJ and Julius are great players despite the lack of a PG. But I'd rather judge players when a PG is in place and then hey......."I gave you everything you need and you still failed me"

Yeah I mean I am not looking to trade him unless it’s something you can’t turn down, like a Tatum or Luka trade. So I am definitely willing to be patient with him. I am just a bit concerned about his ceiling. Seems like people are comparing him to Middleton and that’s not a good sign, considering how bad Middleton has looked in these playoffs against Brooklyn . But I agree, we should definitely get both RJ and Randle an actual PG before making any decisions on them.

I think he can get to Derozan's level. Both guys didn't have the assist numbers early on but have that capability to become a playmaker for their team.

[ENYK]

You may end up right but when you consider his level of improvement from yr 1 to yr 2, it's still too soon to make that decision especially at his age barring some trade that you'd probably do even if you were happy with his play. He isn't untouchable if that's what you're asking but it's not like you wake up and say "damn, I gotta trade RJ today". More like "I'm always willing to listen".

But hes young, he did improve. This was his first playoff at 20 and it's not like he disappeared, he just played poorly.

We don't have a PG any of us consider adequate. Idk how that could just be brushed aside. It's not simply a player who's good. Rose scored like 22pts/game and it was useless. I'm talking about a guy who creates good baskets for teammates, creates a flow and pace and who themselves can shoot and help spread the floor. Doesn't mean RJ and Julius are great players despite the lack of a PG. But I'd rather judge players when a PG is in place and then hey......."I gave you everything you need and you still failed me"

Yeah I mean I am not looking to trade him unless it’s something you can’t turn down, like a Tatum or Luka trade. So I am definitely willing to be patient with him. I am just a bit concerned about his ceiling. Seems like people are comparing him to Middleton and that’s not a good sign, considering how bad Middleton has looked in these playoffs. But I agree, we should definitely get both RJ and Randle an actual PG before making any decisions on them.

who's the best "actual" point guard that you think we can get this summer ?

we're not getting paul or lowry. i mean maybe you can get lowry if you max him for 3 years but you'd be dumb to do that.
schroder is a scorer
lonzo is really a glorified 3 & d player who will throw a touchdown pass on the break once every other game and have people say "what a great passer"

good luck finding someone who is gonna get easy shots for those 2

Trade everyone and everything for the draft rights to Jalen Suggs, best PG available.

[god shammgod]

derozan is a lot more fluid athletically and has better handles

[BugginOut]

Read on Twitter

RJ did not have as bad as a playoffs as some people are making it seem. Did he play like a superstar? No. But he was one of our better players

[Fury]

derozan is a lot more fluid athletically and has better handles

Derozan didn't have great handles early in his career. I think RJ is also ahead of him on crafty moves to the basket (because he's not as athletic). He's also a better shooter than Derozan. But both guys have similar statistics 2 years into their careers.

[Deeeez Knicks]

https://www.theringer.com/video/2021/4/22/22397038/rj-barrett-is-brand-new-player-new-york-knicks-the-void

There's a great video in this one on RJ's development so far and what he can do to improve. Drew Hanlen is on point when he says it is a few year process.

If/when RJ develops more of his pull-up/mid range game it will start opening up more passing lanes too, and where it may unlock RJ as more of a facilitator. We see how that was a big part of Randle's leap. Think we will see his assists start going up.

Even if none of that happens, he will be a good, solid player at the least. But there are still paths where he can get to a star level. I really dont get all the panic/negativity over him after the improvements he has shown.

[god shammgod]

taj and rose being our best players in eye test and stats. this sh*t is just sad.

[3toheadmelo]

You may end up right but when you consider his level of improvement from yr 1 to yr 2, it's still too soon to make that decision especially at his age barring some trade that you'd probably do even if you were happy with his play. He isn't untouchable if that's what you're asking but it's not like you wake up and say "damn, I gotta trade RJ today". More like "I'm always willing to listen".

But hes young, he did improve. This was his first playoff at 20 and it's not like he disappeared, he just played poorly.

We don't have a PG any of us consider adequate. Idk how that could just be brushed aside. It's not simply a player who's good. Rose scored like 22pts/game and it was useless. I'm talking about a guy who creates good baskets for teammates, creates a flow and pace and who themselves can shoot and help spread the floor. Doesn't mean RJ and Julius are great players despite the lack of a PG. But I'd rather judge players when a PG is in place and then hey......."I gave you everything you need and you still failed me"

Yeah I mean I am not looking to trade him unless it’s something you can’t turn down, like a Tatum or Luka trade. So I am definitely willing to be patient with him. I am just a bit concerned about his ceiling. Seems like people are comparing him to Middleton and that’s not a good sign, considering how bad Middleton has looked in these playoffs. But I agree, we should definitely get both RJ and Randle an actual PG before making any decisions on them.

who's the best "actual" point guard that you think we can get this summer ?

we're not getting paul or lowry. i mean maybe you can get lowry if you max him for 3 years but you'd be dumb to do that.
schroder is a scorer
lonzo is really a glorified 3 & d player who will throw a touchdown pass on the break once every other game and have people say "what a great passer"

good luck finding someone who is gonna get easy shots for those 2

Schroder is probably your best bet -shrugs-. He did average 8.3 APG in April when Lebron was out

[3toheadmelo]

You may end up right but when you consider his level of improvement from yr 1 to yr 2, it's still too soon to make that decision especially at his age barring some trade that you'd probably do even if you were happy with his play. He isn't untouchable if that's what you're asking but it's not like you wake up and say "damn, I gotta trade RJ today". More like "I'm always willing to listen".

But hes young, he did improve. This was his first playoff at 20 and it's not like he disappeared, he just played poorly.

We don't have a PG any of us consider adequate. Idk how that could just be brushed aside. It's not simply a player who's good. Rose scored like 22pts/game and it was useless. I'm talking about a guy who creates good baskets for teammates, creates a flow and pace and who themselves can shoot and help spread the floor. Doesn't mean RJ and Julius are great players despite the lack of a PG. But I'd rather judge players when a PG is in place and then hey......."I gave you everything you need and you still failed me"

Yeah I mean I am not looking to trade him unless it’s something you can’t turn down, like a Tatum or Luka trade. So I am definitely willing to be patient with him. I am just a bit concerned about his ceiling. Seems like people are comparing him to Middleton and that’s not a good sign, considering how bad Middleton has looked in these playoffs against Brooklyn . But I agree, we should definitely get both RJ and Randle an actual PG before making any decisions on them.

I think he can get to Derozan's level. Both guys didn't have the assist numbers early on but have that capability to become a playmaker for their team.

I don’t really see any Derozan in him

[Deeeez Knicks]

Yeah I mean I am not looking to trade him unless it’s something you can’t turn down, like a Tatum or Luka trade. So I am definitely willing to be patient with him. I am just a bit concerned about his ceiling. Seems like people are comparing him to Middleton and that’s not a good sign, considering how bad Middleton has looked in these playoffs. But I agree, we should definitely get both RJ and Randle an actual PG before making any decisions on them.

who's the best "actual" point guard that you think we can get this summer ?

we're not getting paul or lowry. i mean maybe you can get lowry if you max him for 3 years but you'd be dumb to do that.
schroder is a scorer
lonzo is really a glorified 3 & d player who will throw a touchdown pass on the break once every other game and have people say "what a great passer"

good luck finding someone who is gonna get easy shots for those 2

Schroder is probably your best bet -shrugs-. He did average 8.3 APG in April when Lebron was out

At worst if we bring back Rose for an entire season, and if Luca can be our Campazzo...maybe bring in one more vet pg. Not the final solution but at least be an upgrade.

Everyone did look better with Rose on the floor and he played well. Just need to upgrade the Payton role at the least

[Fury]

Yeah I mean I am not looking to trade him unless it’s something you can’t turn down, like a Tatum or Luka trade. So I am definitely willing to be patient with him. I am just a bit concerned about his ceiling. Seems like people are comparing him to Middleton and that’s not a good sign, considering how bad Middleton has looked in these playoffs against Brooklyn . But I agree, we should definitely get both RJ and Randle an actual PG before making any decisions on them.

I think he can get to Derozan's level. Both guys didn't have the assist numbers early on but have that capability to become a playmaker for their team.

I don’t really see any Derozan in him

I don't know how to embed this but:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-per_game

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-advanced

They're very similar. When I say level, I don't mean they have the exact same game. Derozan is more athletic but RJ is a better shooter. But RJ is on pace for similar production.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

If people don't have the stomach to handle developing RJ, then they probably wont have the patience to handle developing the next guy either and they will be the first to turn on Quickley.

I've decided to get out in front of turning on Quickley.

RJ they should trade while he still has that new player smell, and before the league realizes he'll be a stiff robot for his entire career.

Someone needs to have a serious talk with IQ about shot selection. The floaters in the lane look prettier than humdrum 3pters and the "stop-get-fouled"-floater gives the impression that the player out-smarted the defender.

However, the efficiency is really low. The floater is there to keep the defenders from cheating in defending the 3pt shot, not the other way around and IQ doesn't seem to understand that.

In the playoffs IQ took 11 3pt shots, repeatedly not taking 3pts in order to drive into the lane and put up floaters, and 22 2pt shots. His percentages were a totally unsurprising 36.4% and 27.3%. That's 36.4% on the 3pt shots and 27.3% on the floaters. He also had 7 FTA, so let's imagine that those count towards the floaters as 3x2FTA + 1x+1. That would bump his 2pt attempt percentage up to (at best) ~35% - i.e he would score about 0.7pt/floater. Whereas he scores about 1.1pt/3pta.

A more robotic IQ would be a much more effective IQ.

[edit] I do worry that IQ was taking those decisions under advice from the coaching staff - and Thibs/his staff ought to have corrected this during the play offs either way.

[moocow007]

I also think there's a misplaced focus on getting a good PG... Sure we need that, but it's missing the point if you say "Imagine Julius and RJ with a competent PG."

Rose literally carried the Knicks to wins not through insane playmaking, but because he was a go-to scorer when he needed to be... Drives, shooting off the dribble from the perimeter, he was the closest thing to a modern NBA offensive player we had on the roster.

Even if we bring in a more competent PG (god don't overpay for Nunn) we're still not going to have anyone who can consistently score... and all of our money will be tied up in glorified role players.

A lot of you point to the pre-superstar Nets as an example of what we should be doing (which is very simplistic) but even they had a go-to modern day NBA first options of sorts in DLo.

Rose makes plays for himself. He's never been a guy that makes plays for other players...even in his prime...and he's clearly well past his prime. Nor can Rose be relied on to be the starting PG. We saw what the uptick in minutes did in the playoffs. He ran out of gas 2.5 games into the playoffs. The Knicks CANNOT move forward with him as the starting PG. You have to realize that even Rose himself has said that (that he cannot play the minutes that the Knicks need) and it clearly showed. So absolutely the Knicks no.1 biggest positional need is not just a top tier starting PG, it's a real starting PG. Rose at this point in his career MAY be a 6th man, definitely not a starting PG especially not for a team that lack shot creating talent like the Knicks. So absolutely absolutely having a top tier shot creating PG would do this team wonders. It would allow Randle to stop needing to be Lebron James in terms of running an offense in lieu of a real starting PG and let him focus on other offensive areas where he's great at by getting the ball FROM THE shot creator in MUCH BETTER situations than he did in the playoffs. You did watch the playoffs right? He struggled cause there was no other player on this team that could run an offense and get him the ball in better situations than basically having someone dribble it pass midcourt and pass the ball to him at the top of the key and hope he can do something with it while the Hawks threw everyone at him...cause there was no other shot creator they had to worry about. They let Rose and anyone else that can do anything do their thing. They were focused on shutting down CLEARLY the Knicks only consistent top tier offensive threat (Randle). It didn't take a genius to figure out how to defend the Knicks...it was obvious. The Knicks offense is one dimensional...they have a single guy that can score. Take Randle out (what the Hawks did) and the Knicks simply do not have the offensive talent to create easy shots to be able to beat anyone. The Knicks were dead last or near last in pace and offensive efficiency the entire season and even worse in the playoffs. That's because they don't have anyone that can create easy shots resulting in a slow, predictable and one-dimensional offense where you basically give the ball to Randle and hope he can carry the load. He did in the regular season but the playoffs is a whole different animal and he just isn't skilled enough for that.

[Knicksfan1992]

RJ Barrett year 2 (age 20) - 17.6/5.8/3.0 44.1/40.1/74.6 53.5 TS%, 0.078 ws/48 +2.4 Net Rating

Jayson Tatum year 2(Age 20) - 15.7/6.0/2.1 45.0/37.3/85.5 54.7 TS% 0.097 ws/48 +7.0 Net Rating

Jaylen Brown year 2 (Age 21)- 14.5/4.9/1.6 46.5/39.5/64.4 56.2 TS% 0.100 ws/48 +8.0 Net Rating

Brad Beal year 2 (Age 20) - 17.1/3.7/3.3 41.9/40.2/78.8 50.7 TS% 0.076 ws/48 +2.4 net rating

Khris Middleton year 2 (Age 22) - 12.1/3.8/2.1 44.0/41.4/86.1 54.1 TS% 0.053 ws/48 -8.6 net rating

Demar Derozan year 2 (Age 21) - 17.2/3.8/1.8 46.7/09.6/81.3 53.0 TS% 0.055 ws/48 -8.3 net rating

Victor Oladipo year 2 (age 22) - 17.9/4.2/4.1 43.6/33.9/81.9 52.7 TS% 0.065 ws/48 -6.7 net rating

Klay Thompson year 2 (age 22) - 16.6/3.7/2.2 42.2/40.1/84.1 53.3 TS% 0.070 ws/48 +1.4 net rating

Maybe just maybe don't give up on RJ just yet...just sayin'.

Most of these guys ended up being multi time all-star and all-NBA caliber players. Stats aren't the end all be all and in game scouting deserves more weight, but production does matter and RJ's production in his 2nd year mirrors some of the best younger/prime guards and wings in the league in their 2nd years and he happens to be younger than most of them at the time of his 2nd season also.

I understand everyone is disappointed in the playoff performance but i'm not going to overly weigh a 5 game sample size where the best player on the team chit the bed in his 1st playoff series over the 72 games of production that showed a possible all-star/all-nba caliber wing. I suggest y'all don't either, especially, given what we know RJ's work ethic is.

[ENYK]

I also think there's a misplaced focus on getting a good PG... Sure we need that, but it's missing the point if you say "Imagine Julius and RJ with a competent PG."

Rose literally carried the Knicks to wins not through insane playmaking, but because he was a go-to scorer when he needed to be... Drives, shooting off the dribble from the perimeter, he was the closest thing to a modern NBA offensive player we had on the roster.

Even if we bring in a more competent PG (god don't overpay for Nunn) we're still not going to have anyone who can consistently score... and all of our money will be tied up in glorified role players.

A lot of you point to the pre-superstar Nets as an example of what we should be doing (which is very simplistic) but even they had a go-to modern day NBA first options of sorts in DLo.

Rose makes plays for himself. He's never been a guy that makes plays for other players. And Rose cannot be relied on to be the starting PG. We saw what the uptick in minutes did in the playoffs. He ran out of gas 2.5 games into the playoffs. The Knicks CANNOT move forward with him as the starting PG. You have to realize that even Rose himself has said that (that he cannot play the minutes that the Knicks need) and it clearly showed. So absolutely the Knicks no.1 biggest positional need is not just a top tier starting PG, it's a real starting PG. Rose at this point in his career MAY be a 6th man, definitely not a starting PG especially not for a team that lack shot creating talent like the Knicks. So absolutely absolutely having a top tier shot creating PG would do this team wonders. It would allow Randle to stop needing to be Lebron James in terms of running an offense in lieu of a real starting PG and let him focus on other offensive areas where he's great at by getting the ball FROM THE shot creator in MUCH BETTER situations than he did in the playoffs. You did watch the playoffs right? He struggled cause there was no other player on this team that could run an offense and get him the ball in better situations than basically having someone dribble it pass midcourt and pass the ball to him at the top of the key and hope he can do something with it.

I didn't say Rose himself is the answer at all, you didn't understand my post... He's old AF with the worst injury history this side of Greg Oden.

But, even old a** Derrick Rose is more of an alpha first scoring option on the perimeter than anyone else the Knicks have (IQ might have that potential but Thibs won't play him real minutes so it's a moot point).

Which PG do you think the Knicks can acquire and will be able to right the ship?

Lot's of teams have decent starting level PGs who can run an offense but they're not winning anything without explosive number one scoring options who can shoot well off the dribble and take over a game.

[moocow007]

I also think there's a misplaced focus on getting a good PG... Sure we need that, but it's missing the point if you say "Imagine Julius and RJ with a competent PG."

Rose literally carried the Knicks to wins not through insane playmaking, but because he was a go-to scorer when he needed to be... Drives, shooting off the dribble from the perimeter, he was the closest thing to a modern NBA offensive player we had on the roster.

Even if we bring in a more competent PG (god don't overpay for Nunn) we're still not going to have anyone who can consistently score... and all of our money will be tied up in glorified role players.

A lot of you point to the pre-superstar Nets as an example of what we should be doing (which is very simplistic) but even they had a go-to modern day NBA first options of sorts in DLo.

Rose makes plays for himself. He's never been a guy that makes plays for other players. And Rose cannot be relied on to be the starting PG. We saw what the uptick in minutes did in the playoffs. He ran out of gas 2.5 games into the playoffs. The Knicks CANNOT move forward with him as the starting PG. You have to realize that even Rose himself has said that (that he cannot play the minutes that the Knicks need) and it clearly showed. So absolutely the Knicks no.1 biggest positional need is not just a top tier starting PG, it's a real starting PG. Rose at this point in his career MAY be a 6th man, definitely not a starting PG especially not for a team that lack shot creating talent like the Knicks. So absolutely absolutely having a top tier shot creating PG would do this team wonders. It would allow Randle to stop needing to be Lebron James in terms of running an offense in lieu of a real starting PG and let him focus on other offensive areas where he's great at by getting the ball FROM THE shot creator in MUCH BETTER situations than he did in the playoffs. You did watch the playoffs right? He struggled cause there was no other player on this team that could run an offense and get him the ball in better situations than basically having someone dribble it pass midcourt and pass the ball to him at the top of the key and hope he can do something with it.

I didn't say Rose himself is the answer at all, you didn't understand my post... He's old AF with the worst injury history this side of Greg Oden.

But, even old a** Derrick Rose is more of an alpha first scoring option on the perimeter than anyone else the Knicks have (IQ might have that potential but Thibs won't play him real minutes so it's a moot point).

Which PG do you think the Knicks can acquire and will be able to right the ship?

Lot's of teams have decent starting level PGs who can run an offense but they're not winning anything without explosive number one scoring options who can shoot well off the dribble and take over a game.

Who knows. Let's hope the front office can figure something out that is not obvious obvious. That's why we have all these guys from all these top franchises and why we have a "consultant" like WWW that is supposed to be connected behind the scenes to so many of the top guys right? Could be Lillard, could be LaVine, could be someone that isn't as obvious.

The point is still that CLEARLY and by far the most pressing need for the Knicks is a significant uptick in talent and specifically at the PG and shot creation departments. They need someone that can actually create shots for himself and others at a very high level. That is not Randle. What that does is it makes everyone else on this roster not have to go above and beyond their skill level for this team to succeed. Randle can focus on scoring and facilitate as a secondary player not as the Knicks defacto PG while also having to carry the bulk of the offensive burden. Barrett can then settle in to a tertiary role and not force as many ugly shots as he does cause the Knicks have no one else that can consistently play big minutes and score.

I keep reading guys say the Knicks don't need a top tier PG or that all they need is more shooters. That's just not true. They absolutely need a top tier PG and much more talent overall. Not role playing shooters. They have those already (Randle, Barrett, Bullock, IQ, Burks, etc.). You win basketball games by making the game easy for the players you have on the team. With an elite shot creator you don't have to need a role player like Reggie Bullock to score 20 points to win. Likewise, because he won't feel pressured to have to score 20 points he can more consistently perform and not have to go above himself night in and night out for this team to succeed. And this trickle down impact applies to every player on this team.

[moocow007]

I also think there's a misplaced focus on getting a good PG... Sure we need that, but it's missing the point if you say "Imagine Julius and RJ with a competent PG."

Rose literally carried the Knicks to wins not through insane playmaking, but because he was a go-to scorer when he needed to be... Drives, shooting off the dribble from the perimeter, he was the closest thing to a modern NBA offensive player we had on the roster.

Even if we bring in a more competent PG (god don't overpay for Nunn) we're still not going to have anyone who can consistently score... and all of our money will be tied up in glorified role players.

A lot of you point to the pre-superstar Nets as an example of what we should be doing (which is very simplistic) but even they had a go-to modern day NBA first options of sorts in DLo.

Rose makes plays for himself. He's never been a guy that makes plays for other players. And Rose cannot be relied on to be the starting PG. We saw what the uptick in minutes did in the playoffs. He ran out of gas 2.5 games into the playoffs. The Knicks CANNOT move forward with him as the starting PG. You have to realize that even Rose himself has said that (that he cannot play the minutes that the Knicks need) and it clearly showed. So absolutely the Knicks no.1 biggest positional need is not just a top tier starting PG, it's a real starting PG. Rose at this point in his career MAY be a 6th man, definitely not a starting PG especially not for a team that lack shot creating talent like the Knicks. So absolutely absolutely having a top tier shot creating PG would do this team wonders. It would allow Randle to stop needing to be Lebron James in terms of running an offense in lieu of a real starting PG and let him focus on other offensive areas where he's great at by getting the ball FROM THE shot creator in MUCH BETTER situations than he did in the playoffs. You did watch the playoffs right? He struggled cause there was no other player on this team that could run an offense and get him the ball in better situations than basically having someone dribble it pass midcourt and pass the ball to him at the top of the key and hope he can do something with it.

I didn't say Rose himself is the answer at all, you didn't understand my post... He's old AF with the worst injury history this side of Greg Oden.

But, even old a** Derrick Rose is more of an alpha first scoring option on the perimeter than anyone else the Knicks have (IQ might have that potential but Thibs won't play him real minutes so it's a moot point).

Which PG do you think the Knicks can acquire and will be able to right the ship?

Lot's of teams have decent starting level PGs who can run an offense but they're not winning anything without explosive number one scoring options who can shoot well off the dribble and take over a game.

Who knows. Let's hope the front office can figure something out that is not obvious obvious. That's why we have all these guys from all these top franchises and why we have a "consultant" like WWW that is supposed to be connected behind the scenes to so many of the top guys right? Could be Lillard, could be LaVine, could be someone that isn't as obvious.

The point is still that CLEARLY and by far the most pressing need for the Knicks is a significant uptick in talent and specifically at the PG and shot creation departments. They need someone that can actually create shots for himself and others at a very high level. That is not Randle. What that does is it makes everyone else on this roster not have to go above and beyond their skill level for this team to succeed (which is the biggest underlying reason why they lost in the playoffs). Randle can focus on scoring and facilitate as a secondary player not as the Knicks defacto PG while also having to carry the bulk of the offensive burden. Barrett can then settle in to a tertiary role and not force as many ugly shots as he does cause the Knicks have no one else that can consistently play big minutes and score.

I keep reading guys say the Knicks don't need a top tier PG or that all they need is more shooters. That's just not true (unless youre talking about Steph Curry level 'shooter'). They absolutely need a top tier PG and much more talent overall. Not role playing shooters. They have those already (Randle, Barrett, Bullock, IQ, Burks, etc.). You win basketball games by making the game easy for the players you have on the team. With an elite shot creator you don't have to need a role player like Reggie Bullock to score 20 points to win. Likewise, because he won't feel pressured to have to score 20 points he can more consistently perform and not have to go above himself night in and night out for this team to succeed. And this trickle down impact applies to every player on this team (from Randle down to guys like Payton or his equivalent next season).

[god shammgod]

we're kind of past the "stars" who need a guy to set them up phase of the nba. if you need that, you're limited to the point that you'll never be that great. stars get their own now.

[3toheadmelo]

I think he can get to Derozan's level. Both guys didn't have the assist numbers early on but have that capability to become a playmaker for their team.

I don’t really see any Derozan in him

I don't know how to embed this but:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-per_game

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-advanced

They're very similar. When I say level, I don't mean they have the exact same game. Derozan is more athletic but RJ is a better shooter. But RJ is on pace for similar production.

But if you watch their games, it’s very different. I don’t get caught up in all these stats. They don’t really mean anything imo. People said Frank was on pace to be like Jrue Holiday because of his stats and well… we know how that ended. That’s why you gotta use the eye test.