OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread.

[djFan71]

I hate that we had to shut down discussion of race/gender in the coaching thread when it's an obviously important & relevant part of the topic. I feel like we should be able to discuss these things thoughtfully somewhere, somehow without it devolving into name-calling, warnings and bans. So, we're going to try it here.

The ground rules:

- Give other posters the benefit of the doubt. If it sounds wrong/offensive to you, ask them to clarify their position, or explain why your view is different.

- Don't say blatantly racist/sexist/LGBTQ-phobic/etc things.

- Don't label anyone - racist/sexist/liberal X/right-wing Y/woke/social justice warrior/snowflake/whatever. If you can't discuss the content of the post instead of just labeling the poster, don't respond to it. If you use any of those labels or similar ones, you'll get a warning. This applies to whichever side of the issue you are on.

- Follow the previous point. Labeling posts as racist/sexist/etc or calling out the whole thread/board for being it is not allowed here. It just makes things worse, and you will get warned for it no matter how unfair that may seem. See next point.

- Let mods handle warnings/bans as needed. Report posts, rather than flaming them. I know it feels lame to report posts, but either do that or trust we'll find it. It may not be instantaneous, but we'll get it. If you respond poorly, you'll get warned along with the original post.

- Don't backseat mod. You'll get warnings for that too.

- Basically, be respectful and try to have a real conversation.


If we are successful, we can use this thread to talk about any of the sensitive topics: race, gender, politics, sexual identity, whatever. Then we can keep the other threads on topic for basketball, but not have to duck our heads in the sand on real issues either. We're going out on a limb here, so help prove it's the right choice. And, disprove my quote in truth18's sig.

If we aren't successful, we'll lock this thread and/or permanently ban people that can't follow these rules.
So, if you're going to post, you know the stakes.

[djFan71]

To start us off, here is a post of bisme37's that I warned in the old thread to be fair - even though I like the post. It's written respectfully, worth discussing, and had several good replies. People disagreeing, but actually discussing the issue. More of this is what I'd love to see in this thread.

I know this rubs some people the wrong way but the next coach has to be African-American I think. Been reading articles and it's being said that many around the league rolled their eyes when Brad was given the POBO job without any Black candidates being interviewed. Now we have a chance to put that eye rolling to bed with our coaching hire. In the context of Ainge's recent comments and Boston's longstanding reputation on race, it's the thing to do. Would improve our standing with free agents and our own players.

Yes the "best candidate" should get the job. But in this reality being black is actually a qualification that makes you a better choice than a white candidate. Many of our players are passionate about racial justice and would respond better to a new black coach than a white one. It's just the truth. We need a coach who these guys will run through a wall for, not roll their eyes at.

I shouldn't have to say this but, I'm black... and I can only imagine a white person saying this for any reason, for any job. They would be called all kinds of racist. Imagine, a white person, saying we need a white boss so our employees will take him seriously. It amazes me what our race is able to get away with saying these days and nobody gives it a second thought.

If our guys need a black coach in order to not roll their eyes at him....... That says alot more about them than it does anyone else. Nothing about this route we are going down screams unity to me. It screams division.. And putting extra emphasis on skin color is not the way to end racism. My opinion. I'll leave it there.

I appreciate your opinion. I would say that if you're worried about a move reading like division, I'd say that you're a few hundred years late to the party. We're already divided man. We've been divided. And a large part of that division is based upon the assumption that a Black person cannot also be the most qualified person. I see you talkin about unity. Be careful. Unity done wrong looks an awful lot like assimilation especially considering the social order of things. It is not your job as a Black man to make others feel at ease with your presence. When those who have historically been in positions of power choose to SEE and accept your skin color and all it entails, then we can talk about unity.

My take is while it doesn't absolutely have to be a black person, I think it would be the right move for the franchise. I don't see the white candidate out there who's credentials are so overwhelming as to make them the obvious choice. Ultimately, NBA coaching is important, but far less important than the players. First year coaches have won lots of titles recently. The pool of retread coaches that are available or have just been fired, or are about to be (hey Bud!) haven't. Plenty of black candidates are just as, or more qualified, than other candidates.

In that scenario where all else is equal, why not use race as a deciding qualification? If a black candidate can relate better to the players, or help repair some of the franchise's image around the league, isn't that a major benefit? If there's a white candidate who can do it better, great, but I don't see one out there.

I do realize that on the surface it sounds racist to say use race as a deciding factor. But to me, that's in a perfect world where all races are truly treated equally and everyone relates to everyone else equally. Which just isn't our world.

[Dangit]

Obsessed

[Captain_Caveman]

I appreciate you trying, DJ.

I truly believe that we are going to end up with two boards that are both way superior to what this place has been in short order. Hopefully, everyone feels welcome on both. No hate to the mods here in this trying time. It's all good.

With that said, you are never going to get an enlightened or even productive conversation on this particular forum on this particular topic. Better to just dump it altogether. It just is what it is.

[djFan71]

Obsessed

You’re not giving us much to go on here. What do you think I am obsessed with? And why is that a good or bad thing?

[djFan71]

I appreciate you trying, DJ.

I truly believe that we are going to end up with two boards that are both way superior to what this place has been in short order. Hopefully, everyone feels welcome on both. No hate to the mods here in this trying time. It's all good.

With that said, you are never going to get an enlightened or even productive conversation on this forum on this particular topic on this particular forum. Better to just dump it altogether. It just is what it is.

Well, It’s not off to a great start so far, but I’m going to go to bed pretending nobody’s replied yet and see what the morning offers.

[Captain_Caveman]

I appreciate you trying, DJ.

I truly believe that we are going to end up with two boards that are both way superior to what this place has been in short order. Hopefully, everyone feels welcome on both. No hate to the mods here in this trying time. It's all good.

With that said, you are never going to get an enlightened or even productive conversation on this forum on this particular topic on this particular forum. Better to just dump it altogether. It just is what it is.

Well, It’s not off to a great start so far, but I’m going to go to bed pretending nobody’s replied yet and see what the morning offers.

I guess what I am saying here is that why does this even need to be the forum for that? Obviously, racism in Boston and in general was a big topic for the Cs the last couple of weeks. None of us chose it, but it was there regardless. I have read some reprehensible takes here on that.

If anyone wants to nope out of my takes on all that, I am 1000% fine with that. Just as I am 1000% OK with noping out with people who pull up just shy of dropping the n-word on this forum.

We can still coexist on Celtics talk, I swear.

[Tyakack]

To start us off, here is a post of bisme37's that I warned in the old thread to be fair - even though I like the post. It's written respectfully, worth discussing, and had several good replies. People disagreeing, but actually discussing the issue. More of this is what I'd love to see in this thread.

I shouldn't have to say this but, I'm black... and I can only imagine a white person saying this for any reason, for any job. They would be called all kinds of racist. Imagine, a white person, saying we need a white boss so our employees will take him seriously. It amazes me what our race is able to get away with saying these days and nobody gives it a second thought.

If our guys need a black coach in order to not roll their eyes at him....... That says alot more about them than it does anyone else. Nothing about this route we are going down screams unity to me. It screams division.. And putting extra emphasis on skin color is not the way to end racism. My opinion. I'll leave it there.

I appreciate your opinion. I would say that if you're worried about a move reading like division, I'd say that you're a few hundred years late to the party. We're already divided man. We've been divided. And a large part of that division is based upon the assumption that a Black person cannot also be the most qualified person. I see you talkin about unity. Be careful. Unity done wrong looks an awful lot like assimilation especially considering the social order of things. It is not your job as a Black man to make others feel at ease with your presence. When those who have historically been in positions of power choose to SEE and accept your skin color and all it entails, then we can talk about unity.

My take is while it doesn't absolutely have to be a black person, I think it would be the right move for the franchise. I don't see the white candidate out there who's credentials are so overwhelming as to make them the obvious choice. Ultimately, NBA coaching is important, but far less important than the players. First year coaches have won lots of titles recently. The pool of retread coaches that are available or have just been fired, or are about to be (hey Bud!) haven't. Plenty of black candidates are just as, or more qualified, than other candidates.

In that scenario where all else is equal, why not use race as a deciding qualification? If a black candidate can relate better to the players, or help repair some of the franchise's image around the league, isn't that a major benefit? If there's a white candidate who can do it better, great, but I don't see one out there.

I do realize that on the surface it sounds racist to say use race as a deciding factor. But to me, that's in a perfect world where all races are truly treated equally and everyone relates to everyone else equally. Which just isn't our world.

Sure, if all things are equal then hire the black person if you want. If you think your players will relate to him better.. I don't personally relate to someone more just because we both have the same skin color but that's just me. The only relatable thing about that to me is........well, we have the same skin color. But I get it, unfortunately.

But what I replied to didn't say that. What I replied to made it sound like we need to hire a black person no matter what and a white coach shouldn't even be considered period. That is what I had an issue with.

I also had an issue with the fact that our players apparently are all of a sudden incapable of playing for a white coach without their eyes rolling in the back of their head lol? That is ridiculous. Among other things.

I will agree I GUESS, from a business standpoint, an image standpoint, it makes sense to hire a black person. Cater to your audience ..... It's just sad to me that this is where we are in the world.... Or even just in the NBA

[bucknersrevenge]

To start us off, here is a post of bisme37's that I warned in the old thread to be fair - even though I like the post. It's written respectfully, worth discussing, and had several good replies. People disagreeing, but actually discussing the issue. More of this is what I'd love to see in this thread.

I appreciate your opinion. I would say that if you're worried about a move reading like division, I'd say that you're a few hundred years late to the party. We're already divided man. We've been divided. And a large part of that division is based upon the assumption that a Black person cannot also be the most qualified person. I see you talkin about unity. Be careful. Unity done wrong looks an awful lot like assimilation especially considering the social order of things. It is not your job as a Black man to make others feel at ease with your presence. When those who have historically been in positions of power choose to SEE and accept your skin color and all it entails, then we can talk about unity.

My take is while it doesn't absolutely have to be a black person, I think it would be the right move for the franchise. I don't see the white candidate out there who's credentials are so overwhelming as to make them the obvious choice. Ultimately, NBA coaching is important, but far less important than the players. First year coaches have won lots of titles recently. The pool of retread coaches that are available or have just been fired, or are about to be (hey Bud!) haven't. Plenty of black candidates are just as, or more qualified, than other candidates.

In that scenario where all else is equal, why not use race as a deciding qualification? If a black candidate can relate better to the players, or help repair some of the franchise's image around the league, isn't that a major benefit? If there's a white candidate who can do it better, great, but I don't see one out there.

I do realize that on the surface it sounds racist to say use race as a deciding factor. But to me, that's in a perfect world where all races are truly treated equally and everyone relates to everyone else equally. Which just isn't our world.

Sure, if all things are equal then hire the black person if you want. If you think your players will relate to him better.. I don't personally relate to someone more just because we both have the same skin color but that's just me. The only relatable thing about that to me is........well, we have the same skin color. But I get it, unfortunately.

But what I replied to didn't say that. What I replied to made it sound like we need to hire a black person no matter what and a white coach shouldn't even be considered period. That is what I had an issue with.

I also had an issue with the fact that our players apparently are all of a sudden incapable of playing for a white coach without their eyes rolling in the back of their head lol? That is ridiculous. Among other things.

I will agree I GUESS, from a business standpoint, an image standpoint, it makes sense to hire a black person. Cater to your audience ..... It's just sad to me that this is where we are in the world.... Or even just in the NBA

I feel like you are missing a TON of context unfortunately. White coaches will ALWAYS be considered. That's the DEFAULT. It has ALWAYS been the default. To miss this point, is I think, to miss the broader conversation happening here. Nobody is suggesting that we hire someone who is otherwise unqualified to do the job. Read his post again. And "read the room" a little too. The city of Boston has a bit of a PR problem. Hiring a respected QUALIFIED Black coach will help on a number of fronts here that would be advantageous to the team and the city. You must see that, right? And our players don't have difficulty with White coaches. If that's what you got from the previous post, you definitely need to read it again. Our players don't have problems with White coaches.

[Feed Your Head]

Obsessed

Bring more substance.

[Tyakack]

To start us off, here is a post of bisme37's that I warned in the old thread to be fair - even though I like the post. It's written respectfully, worth discussing, and had several good replies. People disagreeing, but actually discussing the issue. More of this is what I'd love to see in this thread.




My take is while it doesn't absolutely have to be a black person, I think it would be the right move for the franchise. I don't see the white candidate out there who's credentials are so overwhelming as to make them the obvious choice. Ultimately, NBA coaching is important, but far less important than the players. First year coaches have won lots of titles recently. The pool of retread coaches that are available or have just been fired, or are about to be (hey Bud!) haven't. Plenty of black candidates are just as, or more qualified, than other candidates.

In that scenario where all else is equal, why not use race as a deciding qualification? If a black candidate can relate better to the players, or help repair some of the franchise's image around the league, isn't that a major benefit? If there's a white candidate who can do it better, great, but I don't see one out there.

I do realize that on the surface it sounds racist to say use race as a deciding factor. But to me, that's in a perfect world where all races are truly treated equally and everyone relates to everyone else equally. Which just isn't our world.

Sure, if all things are equal then hire the black person if you want. If you think your players will relate to him better.. I don't personally relate to someone more just because we both have the same skin color but that's just me. The only relatable thing about that to me is........well, we have the same skin color. But I get it, unfortunately.

But what I replied to didn't say that. What I replied to made it sound like we need to hire a black person no matter what and a white coach shouldn't even be considered period. That is what I had an issue with.

I also had an issue with the fact that our players apparently are all of a sudden incapable of playing for a white coach without their eyes rolling in the back of their head lol? That is ridiculous. Among other things.

I will agree I GUESS, from a business standpoint, an image standpoint, it makes sense to hire a black person. Cater to your audience ..... It's just sad to me that this is where we are in the world.... Or even just in the NBA

I feel like you are missing a TON of context unfortunately. White coaches will ALWAYS be considered. That's the DEFAULT. It has ALWAYS been the default. To miss this point, is I think, to miss the broader conversation happening here. Nobody is suggesting that we hire someone who is otherwise unqualified to do the job. Read his post again. And "read the room" a little too. The city of Boston has a bit of a PR problem. Hiring a respected QUALIFIED Black coach will help on a number of fronts here that would be advantageous to the team and the city. You must see that, right? And our players don't have difficulty with White coaches. If that's what you got from the previous post, you definitely need to read it again. Our players don't have problems with White coaches.

The post I quoted was clearly stating that they shouldn't be. By saying, "the next coach HAS to be african american", how else is that supposed to be taken? If you're saying the next coach HAS to be a certain color then you're obviously not considering other races. Common sense. I don't get how you can possibly read that and take it any other way.

Trust me when I say I'm not missing the point, at all. I just don't agree with your stance or opinion on the subject. Other than one point, hiring a black coach will earn us brownie points and make certain players happy. That's all I agree with. So yes I do see the logic in it and I'm all for hiring a black qualified coach. Or a qualified white coach. It makes 0 difference to me.

And it was 100% implied that our players would role their eyes at the coach if he was white. How about you read his last part again and then read the sentence right before it. I'm not saying I personally even agree with what he said. I'm saying what he clearly implied.

[nic4747]

I will repeat my position in this thread, which is that the Celtics should hire a black coach as there are several strategic advantages to doing so. That's not to say that they must hire a black coach and that white coaches shouldn't be considered at all, but I do think it's in the best interest of the organization to hire a black coach for the following reasons:

- A black head coach would bring some much needed diversity into the Celtic's leadership circle, which right now is pretty white.

- A black head coach would bring some much needed diversity into the NBA's head coaches (which right now is 70% white). I personally find this statistic very concerning. The NBA is a league where 75% of the players are black and should be one of the most black friendly organizations in the country. There really should be more black representation in head coaching, GM, and ownership.

- I think hiring a head coach who is passionate about social justice issues for black people will help retain our current players (Jaylen Brown in particular) and help attract free agents. That doesn't necessarily mean this person needs to be black, but obviously a black person is going to understand this stuff a lot better. This obviously isn't directly related to coaching, but I think it will help build a strong relationship between the players and coaches and help with player recruitment and retention.

- I think there's a lot of value to having a former player as a head coach (in particular a former point guard) particularly on this younger team that needs mentoring. In a league where 75% of the players are black, that means a former player coach is likely to be black. So again, this isn't directly related to skin color but the issue here is if they do end up hiring a former player who is white, it advances the whole "Boston is racist" narrative (i.e. how the hell could you not find a qualified former black player) and when you add this against how no black candidates where considered for Danny's job and the fact that you end up with a Celtics leadership that is pretty much all white, it adds up to not being a good look.

[Feed Your Head]

This was a really solid idea by DjFan, I agreed with him that there should be a discussion on all of it.

Just please be respectful, there will be no patience for BS here. And bring substance, unlike that post I quoted above.

[bucknersrevenge]

Sure, if all things are equal then hire the black person if you want. If you think your players will relate to him better.. I don't personally relate to someone more just because we both have the same skin color but that's just me. The only relatable thing about that to me is........well, we have the same skin color. But I get it, unfortunately.

But what I replied to didn't say that. What I replied to made it sound like we need to hire a black person no matter what and a white coach shouldn't even be considered period. That is what I had an issue with.

I also had an issue with the fact that our players apparently are all of a sudden incapable of playing for a white coach without their eyes rolling in the back of their head lol? That is ridiculous. Among other things.

I will agree I GUESS, from a business standpoint, an image standpoint, it makes sense to hire a black person. Cater to your audience ..... It's just sad to me that this is where we are in the world.... Or even just in the NBA

I feel like you are missing a TON of context unfortunately. White coaches will ALWAYS be considered. That's the DEFAULT. It has ALWAYS been the default. To miss this point, is I think, to miss the broader conversation happening here. Nobody is suggesting that we hire someone who is otherwise unqualified to do the job. Read his post again. And "read the room" a little too. The city of Boston has a bit of a PR problem. Hiring a respected QUALIFIED Black coach will help on a number of fronts here that would be advantageous to the team and the city. You must see that, right? And our players don't have difficulty with White coaches. If that's what you got from the previous post, you definitely need to read it again. Our players don't have problems with White coaches.

The post I quoted was clearly stating that they shouldn't be. By saying, "the next coach HAS to be african american", how else is that supposed to be taken? If you're saying the next coach HAS to be a certain color then you're obviously not considering other races. Common sense. I don't get how you can possibly read that and take it any other way.

Trust me when I say I'm not missing the point, at all. I just don't agree with your stance or opinion on the subject. Other than one point, hiring a black coach will earn us brownie points and make certain players happy. That's all I agree with. So yes I do see the logic in it and I'm all for hiring a black qualified coach. Or a qualified white coach. It makes 0 difference to me.

And it was 100% implied that our players would role their eyes at the coach if he was white. How about you read his last part again and then read the sentence right before it. I'm not saying I personally even agree with what he said. I'm saying what he clearly implied.

First, before I go any further, I want to say that I appreciate your willingness to engage in discussion on a sensitive topic. That said, do you believe all of this is about "brownie points"? That the topics that Jaylen and Jayson and a number of players have been talking about over the last 18-24 months is about earning "brownie points"? Because make no mistake, this is all part of the same broader discussion

BTW, implication is not fact. You said he implied in this post but then stated that it was a fact in the previous post. It is not a fact that our players have a problem with White coaches. And this part of the response is for anyone who suggests otherwise.

[Tyakack]

I feel like you are missing a TON of context unfortunately. White coaches will ALWAYS be considered. That's the DEFAULT. It has ALWAYS been the default. To miss this point, is I think, to miss the broader conversation happening here. Nobody is suggesting that we hire someone who is otherwise unqualified to do the job. Read his post again. And "read the room" a little too. The city of Boston has a bit of a PR problem. Hiring a respected QUALIFIED Black coach will help on a number of fronts here that would be advantageous to the team and the city. You must see that, right? And our players don't have difficulty with White coaches. If that's what you got from the previous post, you definitely need to read it again. Our players don't have problems with White coaches.

The post I quoted was clearly stating that they shouldn't be. By saying, "the next coach HAS to be african american", how else is that supposed to be taken? If you're saying the next coach HAS to be a certain color then you're obviously not considering other races. Common sense. I don't get how you can possibly read that and take it any other way.

Trust me when I say I'm not missing the point, at all. I just don't agree with your stance or opinion on the subject. Other than one point, hiring a black coach will earn us brownie points and make certain players happy. That's all I agree with. So yes I do see the logic in it and I'm all for hiring a black qualified coach. Or a qualified white coach. It makes 0 difference to me.

And it was 100% implied that our players would role their eyes at the coach if he was white. How about you read his last part again and then read the sentence right before it. I'm not saying I personally even agree with what he said. I'm saying what he clearly implied.

First, before I go any further, I want to say that I appreciate your willingness to engage in discussion on a sensitive topic. That said, do you believe all of this is about "brownie points"? That the topics that Jaylen and Jayson and a number of players have been talking about over the last 18-24 months is about earning "brownie points"? Because make no mistake, this is all part of the same broader discussion

BTW, implication is not fact. You said he implied in this post but then stated that it was a fact in the previous post. It is not a fact that our players have a problem with White coaches. And this part of the response is for anyone who suggests otherwise.

I don't normally engage because it is a sensitive topic and it's one I don't see eye to eye on with most people and I consider it almost a waste of time in most cases but thanks. Also no, I don't think jayson or jaylen or any of the players are talking about this for brownie points. I think they truly believe everything they say...

But as you and others have stated, hiring a black coach would be a good PR move. That is what I meant by it, basically. Also, I never thought for a fact that our players had a problem with white coaches. I took his implication and treated it as reality in order to make a point. Saying, "IF" they feel that way, it says more about them than it does anyone else.

I have no evidence to suggest they feel that way.

[Curmudgeon]

Interesting article from fivethirtyeight.com on the NCAA coaching scene: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/only-13-black-coaches-led-major-mens-basketball-programs-this-year-two-face-off-in-the-sweet-16/

[bucknersrevenge]

The post I quoted was clearly stating that they shouldn't be. By saying, "the next coach HAS to be african american", how else is that supposed to be taken? If you're saying the next coach HAS to be a certain color then you're obviously not considering other races. Common sense. I don't get how you can possibly read that and take it any other way.

Trust me when I say I'm not missing the point, at all. I just don't agree with your stance or opinion on the subject. Other than one point, hiring a black coach will earn us brownie points and make certain players happy. That's all I agree with. So yes I do see the logic in it and I'm all for hiring a black qualified coach. Or a qualified white coach. It makes 0 difference to me.

And it was 100% implied that our players would role their eyes at the coach if he was white. How about you read his last part again and then read the sentence right before it. I'm not saying I personally even agree with what he said. I'm saying what he clearly implied.

First, before I go any further, I want to say that I appreciate your willingness to engage in discussion on a sensitive topic. That said, do you believe all of this is about "brownie points"? That the topics that Jaylen and Jayson and a number of players have been talking about over the last 18-24 months is about earning "brownie points"? Because make no mistake, this is all part of the same broader discussion

BTW, implication is not fact. You said he implied in this post but then stated that it was a fact in the previous post. It is not a fact that our players have a problem with White coaches. And this part of the response is for anyone who suggests otherwise.

I don't normally engage because it is a sensitive topic and it's one I don't see eye to eye on with most people and I consider it almost a waste of time in most cases but thanks. Also no, I don't think jayson or jaylen or any of the players are talking about this for brownie points. I think they truly believe everything they say...

But as you and others have stated, hiring a black coach would be a good PR move. That is what I meant by it, basically. Also, I never thought for a fact that our players had a problem with white coaches. I took his implication and treated it as reality in order to make a point. Saying, "IF" they feel that way, it says more about them than it does anyone else.

I have no evidence to suggest they feel that way.

Fair enough. And again, thank you for your responses. I suspect that you and I may have some differing of opinions on some things but there are also places where I think we intersect as well so I appreciate the conversation.

[Dangit]

Obsessed

Bring more substance.

No

[Feed Your Head]

Obsessed

Bring more substance.

No

Then this thread isn’t for you.

[MaxwellSmart]

Bad idea.