Trade Ideas (Part III)

[toooskies]

Someone might want Kevin Love's 2023-expiring contract. Lebron, Harden, Durant, Beal, Butler, Kyrie, Embiid, and Jokic headline that class if they opt in the previous year-- although plenty of those guys are going to be on the decline by then. Solid RFA class as well. I don't see many realistic targets for the Cavs there in free agency, but by next offseason his contract might become tradeable at very little loss or even a gain.

[KuruptedCav]

Nah, what happens is the Cavs take a lot of flack from other players and the media that they don't want to deal with, so they end up buying out Kevin so the problem goes away.

The owners need some sort of consideration in the next CBA to deal with an unhappy/belligerent player ... old school steps like fining and suspending without pay are just off the table, unless the league is enforcing a rule violation.

At that point, you go to war. Step up the microphone at a press conference. Reiterate that you've always tried to be fair, that you've paid players their full salaries to stay home or play for another team in the past, but that can't become the new normal or mid market teams won't be able to compete.

Point out that the $16M JR got for not playing was a lot of money and those dollars were unable to be spent on other players. Same with Drummond. Same with Love. If you're paying full freight to players who aren't playing for you, you can't spend those same dollars on other players.

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The NBA isn't going to war over something unless the owners feel they can't make money or compete because of it ... otherwise they will adjust their strategies ... maybe work the fringes and ask for shorter contracts

It’s not going to war, it’s similar to how some MLB teams will simply not draft a Scott Boras client.

The NBAPA doesn’t care which players get the money, which agents represent them, etc.

But the owners have backed themselves into this situation with the soft-cap where they get bent over as they exceed the cap. We see it with the Lakers and Schroeder now. We saw it with the Cavs and Smith/Thompson.

No cap and those players would be replaceable and forced to negotiate in good faith. Hard cap and they’d be forced to take less.

Ah wells. I still wouldn’t buy him out. Maybe in two years he fills that David Lee role from the Warriors first championship run.


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[KuruptedCav]

Does CJ even make the Cavs better than what Sexton does? Their points, assists, and total shots are almost all identical, just CJ takes 2x as many 3's and is 7 years older.

For 2021/22, yes. Beyond that, probably not. In part because they are on different arcs, in part because CJ never had the tools Collin has.

CJ is a more consistent shooter, some of that is career arc and some of that is playing next to Dame.

CJ moves the offense better, but, that’s also system related and playing with someone who can knock it down.

Defensively, they are both bad. But, Collin is more athletic, has a longer wingspan, and therefore the tools to actually play defense if coached. CJ might as well be a broker turn-style.

And I say this as someone who is a fan of McCollum and hopes he finds his way to a Cavs uniform before his career is over.


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[JonFromVA]

At that point, you go to war. Step up the microphone at a press conference. Reiterate that you've always tried to be fair, that you've paid players their full salaries to stay home or play for another team in the past, but that can't become the new normal or mid market teams won't be able to compete.

Point out that the $16M JR got for not playing was a lot of money and those dollars were unable to be spent on other players. Same with Drummond. Same with Love. If you're paying full freight to players who aren't playing for you, you can't spend those same dollars on other players.

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The NBA isn't going to war over something unless the owners feel they can't make money or compete because of it ... otherwise they will adjust their strategies ... maybe work the fringes and ask for shorter contracts

It’s not going to war, it’s similar to how some MLB teams will simply not draft a Scott Boras client.

The NBAPA doesn’t care which players get the money, which agents represent them, etc.

But the owners have backed themselves into this situation with the soft-cap where they get bent over as they exceed the cap. We see it with the Lakers and Schroeder now. We saw it with the Cavs and Smith/Thompson.

No cap and those players would be replaceable and forced to negotiate in good faith. Hard cap and they’d be forced to take less.

Ah wells. I still wouldn’t buy him out. Maybe in two years he fills that David Lee role from the Warriors first championship run.


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Thanks to the cap LeBron was extremely underpaid ... as nice as it might had been to get Tristan and JR on team friendly deals ... there should be no regrets.

The Cavs relationship with Rich Paul was a huge factor in James' return and it started with drafting TT.

But most importantly we had a championship to win and the ability to pay... so still supply and demand at work even if it was just the Cavs

That cap also limits how crazy an agent can get. In other words there will be a player driven correction to an agent that keeps overplaying his hand long before GMs would need to shun said agent.

[KuruptedCav]

The NBA isn't going to war over something unless the owners feel they can't make money or compete because of it ... otherwise they will adjust their strategies ... maybe work the fringes and ask for shorter contracts

It’s not going to war, it’s similar to how some MLB teams will simply not draft a Scott Boras client.

The NBAPA doesn’t care which players get the money, which agents represent them, etc.

But the owners have backed themselves into this situation with the soft-cap where they get bent over as they exceed the cap. We see it with the Lakers and Schroeder now. We saw it with the Cavs and Smith/Thompson.

No cap and those players would be replaceable and forced to negotiate in good faith. Hard cap and they’d be forced to take less.

Ah wells. I still wouldn’t buy him out. Maybe in two years he fills that David Lee role from the Warriors first championship run.


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Thanks to the cap LeBron was extremely underpaid ... as nice as it might had been to get Tristan and JR on team friendly deals ... there should be no regrets.

The Cavs relationship with Rich Paul was a huge factor in James' return and it started with drafting TT.

But most importantly we had a championship to win and the ability to pay... so still supply and demand at work even if it was just the Cavs

That cap also limits how crazy an agent can get. In other words there will be a player driven correction to an agent that keeps overplaying his hand long before GMs would need to shun said agent.

I have no regrets on the spending. The Chip is still great and it was never my money.

Im not a fan of the cap or max contracts. I get it from an owners profitability and the NBAPA perspective. But honestly, paying Lebron $80 million wouldn’t have bothered me either.

Teams have to spend $3.3 billion on player salary. That pulls tier two and tier three players into the max range, facilitates stars teaming up, and forces smaller markets to overpay for marginal talent.



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[jbk1234]

The only thing I'll say is that I'm glad a CJ trade couldn't happen before the lottery results. If the Cavs end up at 3, Jaylen Green will likely be BPA. He's taller and more of a two-way guy than Sexton or CJ.

As far as I'm concerned, Love can stay healthy and play well enough that his trade value is at least expiring contracts at the deadline. If he can't do that, he can go to Portland after the deadline once he gives a good chunk of money back. FWIW, I'm pretty sure it's Schwartz floating the rumor about the Cavs attaching Sexton after asking Oshley what it would take to get Love to Portland.

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[jbk1234]

It’s not going to war, it’s similar to how some MLB teams will simply not draft a Scott Boras client.

The NBAPA doesn’t care which players get the money, which agents represent them, etc.

But the owners have backed themselves into this situation with the soft-cap where they get bent over as they exceed the cap. We see it with the Lakers and Schroeder now. We saw it with the Cavs and Smith/Thompson.

No cap and those players would be replaceable and forced to negotiate in good faith. Hard cap and they’d be forced to take less.

Ah wells. I still wouldn’t buy him out. Maybe in two years he fills that David Lee role from the Warriors first championship run.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Thanks to the cap LeBron was extremely underpaid ... as nice as it might had been to get Tristan and JR on team friendly deals ... there should be no regrets.

The Cavs relationship with Rich Paul was a huge factor in James' return and it started with drafting TT.

But most importantly we had a championship to win and the ability to pay... so still supply and demand at work even if it was just the Cavs

That cap also limits how crazy an agent can get. In other words there will be a player driven correction to an agent that keeps overplaying his hand long before GMs would need to shun said agent.

I have no regrets on the spending. The Chip is still great and it was never my money.

Im not a fan of the cap or max contracts. I get it from an owners profitability and the NBAPA perspective. But honestly, paying Lebron $80 million wouldn’t have bothered me either.

Teams have to spend $3.3 billion on player salary. That pulls tier two and tier three players into the max range, facilitates stars teaming up, and forces smaller markets to overpay for marginal talent.



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If you didn't have a cap, many mid market teams would effectively become farm teams and eventually fold. It would work out great for the players who were still on active rosters, but not the 150 players who found themselves unemployed. When people talk about what's best for the players, it's important to ask which players.

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[JonFromVA]

The only thing I'll say is that I'm glad a CJ trade couldn't happen before the lottery results. If the Cavs end up at 3, Jaylen Green will likely be BPA. He's taller and more of a two-way guy than Sexton or CJ.

As far as I'm concerned, Love can stay healthy and play well enough that his trade value is at least expiring contracts at the deadline. If he can't do that, he can go to Portland after the deadline once he gives a good chunk of money back. FWIW, I'm pretty sure it's Schwartz floating the rumor about the Cavs attaching Sexton after asking Oshley what it would take to get Love to Portland.

Possibly, but I'd expect some higher quality rumors from Woj/Shams/Windy/Stein/etc if that was the case. What we're hearing might be more blogger driven simply because Love recently mentioned he'd like to play for Portland and obviously Portland needs to make some moves.

[Stillwater]

The only thing I'll say is that I'm glad a CJ trade couldn't happen before the lottery results. If the Cavs end up at 3, Jaylen Green will likely be BPA. He's taller and more of a two-way guy than Sexton or CJ.

As far as I'm concerned, Love can stay healthy and play well enough that his trade value is at least expiring contracts at the deadline. If he can't do that, he can go to Portland after the deadline once he gives a good chunk of money back. FWIW, I'm pretty sure it's Schwartz floating the rumor about the Cavs attaching Sexton after asking Oshley what it would take to get Love to Portland.

Possibly, but I'd expect some higher quality rumors from Woj/Shams/Windy/Stein/etc if that was the case. What we're hearing might be more blogger driven simply because Love recently mentioned he'd like to play for Portland and obviously Portland needs to make some moves.

This is the ONLY reason the rumors exist outside of idiots convinced Sexton is not worth a max deal as if the market would not yield it.
Portland would never want KLove unless he was on a cheap deal like Melo

[jbk1234]

The only thing I'll say is that I'm glad a CJ trade couldn't happen before the lottery results. If the Cavs end up at 3, Jaylen Green will likely be BPA. He's taller and more of a two-way guy than Sexton or CJ.

As far as I'm concerned, Love can stay healthy and play well enough that his trade value is at least expiring contracts at the deadline. If he can't do that, he can go to Portland after the deadline once he gives a good chunk of money back. FWIW, I'm pretty sure it's Schwartz floating the rumor about the Cavs attaching Sexton after asking Oshley what it would take to get Love to Portland.

Possibly, but I'd expect some higher quality rumors from Woj/Shams/Windy/Stein/etc if that was the case. What we're hearing might be more blogger driven simply because Love recently mentioned he'd like to play for Portland and obviously Portland needs to make some moves.

This is the ONLY reason the rumors exist outside of idiots convinced Sexton is not worth a max deal as if the market would not yield it.
Portland would never want KLove unless he was on a cheap deal like Melo

I guess you can group me in with the idiots then because I don't think he's worth a max deal and I don't think the market will yield it as a RFA. That doesn't mean I think he should be traded with Love for McCollum.

[Stillwater]

Possibly, but I'd expect some higher quality rumors from Woj/Shams/Windy/Stein/etc if that was the case. What we're hearing might be more blogger driven simply because Love recently mentioned he'd like to play for Portland and obviously Portland needs to make some moves.

This is the ONLY reason the rumors exist outside of idiots convinced Sexton is not worth a max deal as if the market would not yield it.
Portland would never want KLove unless he was on a cheap deal like Melo

I guess you can group me in with the idiots then because I don't think he's worth a max deal and I don't think the market will yield it as a RFA. That doesn't mean I think he should be traded with Love for McCollum.

Yeah was not suggesting idiot for disagreeing with his actual current value as a player, but your lack of confidence he makes up for the problem after he gets paid to justify the pay day is the part I don't agree with you about.
I think he will continue to learn and be the best defender he can be. That probably will never be a great defender if he is always defending larger wings, but if he is defending guards his size or speed he can definitely make an impact in steals playing passing lanes and hounding ball handlers.

[jbk1234]

This is the ONLY reason the rumors exist outside of idiots convinced Sexton is not worth a max deal as if the market would not yield it.
Portland would never want KLove unless he was on a cheap deal like Melo

I guess you can group me in with the idiots then because I don't think he's worth a max deal and I don't think the market will yield it as a RFA. That doesn't mean I think he should be traded with Love for McCollum.

Yeah was not suggesting idiot for disagreeing with his actual current value as a player, but your lack of confidence he makes up for the problem after he gets paid to justify the pay day is the part I don't agree with you about.
I think he will continue to learn and be the best defender he can be. That probably will never be a great defender if he is always defending larger wings, but if he is defending guards his size or speed he can definitely make an impact in steals playing passing lanes and hounding ball handlers.

My feelings about paying based on projected improvement are well known. That said, if I look at situation where last season's version of Sexton is as good as it gets, and I ask myself what his value is long-term if he's adding 16-18 ppg as the first guy off the bench on a non-max deal, it's too high to give up for McCollum. Beyond experience, and a little better defense, I really don't know that McCollum adds anything beyond what Sexton already gives us. Also, while I'm not nearly as confident as you when it comes to his defense improving, there is a chance he could take a step or two on that end. This is especially if the Cavs make it explicitly clear that they won't be offering a big contract without said improvement.

[Revenged25]

I guess you can group me in with the idiots then because I don't think he's worth a max deal and I don't think the market will yield it as a RFA. That doesn't mean I think he should be traded with Love for McCollum.

Yeah was not suggesting idiot for disagreeing with his actual current value as a player, but your lack of confidence he makes up for the problem after he gets paid to justify the pay day is the part I don't agree with you about.
I think he will continue to learn and be the best defender he can be. That probably will never be a great defender if he is always defending larger wings, but if he is defending guards his size or speed he can definitely make an impact in steals playing passing lanes and hounding ball handlers.

My feelings about paying based on projected improvement are well known. That said, if I look at situation where last season's version of Sexton is as good as it gets, and I ask myself what his value is long-term if he's adding 16-18 ppg as the first guy off the bench on a non-max deal, it's too high to give up for McCollum. Beyond experience, and a little better defense, I really don't know that McCollum adds anything beyond what Sexton already gives us. Also, while I'm not nearly as confident as you when it comes to his defense improving, there is a chance he could take a step or two on that end. This is especially if the Cavs make it explicitly clear that they won't be offering a big contract without said improvement.

I think even if Sexton comes off the bench he'll still be producing 20+ ppg if he's getting the minutes. His ability to score really is next level. I honestly think if Sexton was getting his points on the same number of shots but doing it with 2x as many 3 attempt than he's currently taking no one would be arguing his value. Booker has nearly identical numbers to Sexton and although he is 6'5 compared to 6'1 he's never been a good defender himself and no one really questioned giving Booker the max extension.

[jbk1234]

Yeah was not suggesting idiot for disagreeing with his actual current value as a player, but your lack of confidence he makes up for the problem after he gets paid to justify the pay day is the part I don't agree with you about.
I think he will continue to learn and be the best defender he can be. That probably will never be a great defender if he is always defending larger wings, but if he is defending guards his size or speed he can definitely make an impact in steals playing passing lanes and hounding ball handlers.

My feelings about paying based on projected improvement are well known. That said, if I look at situation where last season's version of Sexton is as good as it gets, and I ask myself what his value is long-term if he's adding 16-18 ppg as the first guy off the bench on a non-max deal, it's too high to give up for McCollum. Beyond experience, and a little better defense, I really don't know that McCollum adds anything beyond what Sexton already gives us. Also, while I'm not nearly as confident as you when it comes to his defense improving, there is a chance he could take a step or two on that end. This is especially if the Cavs make it explicitly clear that they won't be offering a big contract without said improvement.

I think even if Sexton comes off the bench he'll still be producing 20+ ppg if he's getting the minutes. His ability to score really is next level. I honestly think if Sexton was getting his points on the same number of shots but doing it with 2x as many 3 attempt than he's currently taking no one would be arguing his value. Booker has nearly identical numbers to Sexton and although he is 6'5 compared to 6'1 he's never been a good defender himself and no one really questioned giving Booker the max extension.

Getting points from beyond the arc is a pretty significant distinction though, especially when you're able to get opposing defenses to focus on you out there. It opens up the floor for the rest of the team. Also, I think Booker was a better PNR defender when it came to challenging shooters outside the arc and not leaving shooters from that range. Little things like that are difference between you being a net plus on the floor, or not.

In terms of him getting his a18 attempts per game off the bench, I'm not seeing it. There will still be games where he has it cooking and gets them, but I don't see him averaging it. So no, I don't think he'll still get 20 ppg off the bench.

[Revenged25]

My feelings about paying based on projected improvement are well known. That said, if I look at situation where last season's version of Sexton is as good as it gets, and I ask myself what his value is long-term if he's adding 16-18 ppg as the first guy off the bench on a non-max deal, it's too high to give up for McCollum. Beyond experience, and a little better defense, I really don't know that McCollum adds anything beyond what Sexton already gives us. Also, while I'm not nearly as confident as you when it comes to his defense improving, there is a chance he could take a step or two on that end. This is especially if the Cavs make it explicitly clear that they won't be offering a big contract without said improvement.

I think even if Sexton comes off the bench he'll still be producing 20+ ppg if he's getting the minutes. His ability to score really is next level. I honestly think if Sexton was getting his points on the same number of shots but doing it with 2x as many 3 attempt than he's currently taking no one would be arguing his value. Booker has nearly identical numbers to Sexton and although he is 6'5 compared to 6'1 he's never been a good defender himself and no one really questioned giving Booker the max extension.

Getting points from beyond the arc is a pretty significant distinction though, especially when you're able to get opposing defenses to focus on you out there. It opens up the floor for the rest of the team. Also, I think Booker was a better PNR defender when it came to challenging shooters outside the arc and not leaving shooters from that range. Little things like that are difference between you being a net plus on the floor, or not.

In terms of him getting his a18 attempts per game off the bench, I'm not seeing it. There will still be games where he has it cooking and gets them, but I don't see him averaging it. So no, I don't think he'll still get 20 ppg off the bench.

Well we still don't know what the reason for his going under screens compared to over to prevent the 3 attempts, that's something only coaching really knows unless they tell us. Also I agree the additional 3s do matter adn probably the reason why I think Sexon's currently value is probably closer to 20 mil/yr than a max, but I still disagree that he wouldnt' get 20 ppg off the bench. Unless they completely froze him out of the offense he's likely going to be the best option the majority of the time he's on the floor like he currently is.

[jbk1234]

I think even if Sexton comes off the bench he'll still be producing 20+ ppg if he's getting the minutes. His ability to score really is next level. I honestly think if Sexton was getting his points on the same number of shots but doing it with 2x as many 3 attempt than he's currently taking no one would be arguing his value. Booker has nearly identical numbers to Sexton and although he is 6'5 compared to 6'1 he's never been a good defender himself and no one really questioned giving Booker the max extension.

Getting points from beyond the arc is a pretty significant distinction though, especially when you're able to get opposing defenses to focus on you out there. It opens up the floor for the rest of the team. Also, I think Booker was a better PNR defender when it came to challenging shooters outside the arc and not leaving shooters from that range. Little things like that are difference between you being a net plus on the floor, or not.

In terms of him getting his a18 attempts per game off the bench, I'm not seeing it. There will still be games where he has it cooking and gets them, but I don't see him averaging it. So no, I don't think he'll still get 20 ppg off the bench.

Well we still don't know what the reason for his going under screens compared to over to prevent the 3 attempts, that's something only coaching really knows unless they tell us. Also I agree the additional 3s do matter adn probably the reason why I think Sexon's currently value is probably closer to 20 mil/yr than a max, but I still disagree that he wouldnt' get 20 ppg off the bench. Unless they completely froze him out of the offense he's likely going to be the best option the majority of the time he's on the floor like he currently is.

Given a fact that both Okoro and Garland made an effort to get over screens, not giving a **** is a pretty good educated guess as to the reason.

[Revenged25]

Getting points from beyond the arc is a pretty significant distinction though, especially when you're able to get opposing defenses to focus on you out there. It opens up the floor for the rest of the team. Also, I think Booker was a better PNR defender when it came to challenging shooters outside the arc and not leaving shooters from that range. Little things like that are difference between you being a net plus on the floor, or not.

In terms of him getting his a18 attempts per game off the bench, I'm not seeing it. There will still be games where he has it cooking and gets them, but I don't see him averaging it. So no, I don't think he'll still get 20 ppg off the bench.

Well we still don't know what the reason for his going under screens compared to over to prevent the 3 attempts, that's something only coaching really knows unless they tell us. Also I agree the additional 3s do matter adn probably the reason why I think Sexon's currently value is probably closer to 20 mil/yr than a max, but I still disagree that he wouldnt' get 20 ppg off the bench. Unless they completely froze him out of the offense he's likely going to be the best option the majority of the time he's on the floor like he currently is.

Given a fact that both Okoro and Garland made an effort to get over screens, not giving a **** is a pretty good educated guess as to the reason.

So you have 0 actual insight. Got it.

[jbk1234]

Well we still don't know what the reason for his going under screens compared to over to prevent the 3 attempts, that's something only coaching really knows unless they tell us. Also I agree the additional 3s do matter adn probably the reason why I think Sexon's currently value is probably closer to 20 mil/yr than a max, but I still disagree that he wouldnt' get 20 ppg off the bench. Unless they completely froze him out of the offense he's likely going to be the best option the majority of the time he's on the floor like he currently is.

Given a fact that both Okoro and Garland made an effort to get over screens, not giving a **** is a pretty good educated guess as to the reason.

So you have 0 actual insight. Got it.

I don't think the coaching staff told Sexton, and only Sexton, not to go over screens. I'm certain they didn't tell him just to give up on PNR defense which he did on more than a handful of occasions throughout last season.

[Revenged25]

Given a fact that both Okoro and Garland made an effort to get over screens, not giving a **** is a pretty good educated guess as to the reason.

So you have 0 actual insight. Got it.

I don't think the coaching staff told Sexton, and only Sexton, not to go over screens. I'm certain they didn't tell him just to give up on PNR defense which he did on more than a handful of occasions throughout last season.

I couldn't find stats for how often someone goes over or under a screen in PNR, but in PNR defense here are the stats I found for defensively,

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler/#!?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*CLE&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=1

Apparently although Garland and Okoro went over screens more according to you, they both also gave up more PPP than Sexton did. Even if we want to exclude Okoro due to always guarding the opposing teams best scorer, Garland still did worse than Sexton in PNR defense...

[JonFromVA]

Well we still don't know what the reason for his going under screens compared to over to prevent the 3 attempts, that's something only coaching really knows unless they tell us. Also I agree the additional 3s do matter adn probably the reason why I think Sexon's currently value is probably closer to 20 mil/yr than a max, but I still disagree that he wouldnt' get 20 ppg off the bench. Unless they completely froze him out of the offense he's likely going to be the best option the majority of the time he's on the floor like he currently is.

Given a fact that both Okoro and Garland made an effort to get over screens, not giving a **** is a pretty good educated guess as to the reason.

So you have 0 actual insight. Got it.

As fans, there's often not much we can do beyond trying to read tea leaves. Both what is said, and what is not said. The question here is whether there's a plausible counter theory?

Knowing what we know about Collin, I wouldn't necessarily presume it was anything nefarious. It might be that Garland and Okoro are better at recognizing when they should go over a screen (applying film study and instruction). Collin doesn't track what's going on around him as well as they do, is often just a bit slow to react.