Trade Ideas (Part III)

[JonFromVA]

So you have 0 actual insight. Got it.

I don't think the coaching staff told Sexton, and only Sexton, not to go over screens. I'm certain they didn't tell him just to give up on PNR defense which he did on more than a handful of occasions throughout last season.

I couldn't find stats for how often someone goes over or under a screen in PNR, but in PNR defense here are the stats I found for defensively,

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler/#!?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*CLE&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=1

Apparently although Garland and Okoro went over screens more according to you, they both also gave up more PPP than Sexton did. Even if we want to exclude Okoro due to always guarding the opposing teams best scorer, Garland still did worse than Sexton in PNR defense...

Good counter-evidence, but alas, they all stunk in this category.

[Revenged25]

I don't think the coaching staff told Sexton, and only Sexton, not to go over screens. I'm certain they didn't tell him just to give up on PNR defense which he did on more than a handful of occasions throughout last season.

I couldn't find stats for how often someone goes over or under a screen in PNR, but in PNR defense here are the stats I found for defensively,

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler/#!?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*CLE&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=1

Apparently although Garland and Okoro went over screens more according to you, they both also gave up more PPP than Sexton did. Even if we want to exclude Okoro due to always guarding the opposing teams best scorer, Garland still did worse than Sexton in PNR defense...

Good counter-evidence, but alas, they all stunk in this category.

No argument there. Granted a lot of it also probably had to do with constant injuries and no consistency in the line-up for them to understand how they need to play such defensive scenarios based on who is on the floor with them so they would know how they needed to respond to their teammates etc.

[JonFromVA]

I couldn't find stats for how often someone goes over or under a screen in PNR, but in PNR defense here are the stats I found for defensively,

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler/#!?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*CLE&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=1

Apparently although Garland and Okoro went over screens more according to you, they both also gave up more PPP than Sexton did. Even if we want to exclude Okoro due to always guarding the opposing teams best scorer, Garland still did worse than Sexton in PNR defense...

Good counter-evidence, but alas, they all stunk in this category.

No argument there. Granted a lot of it also probably had to do with constant injuries and no consistency in the line-up for them to understand how they need to play such defensive scenarios based on who is on the floor with them so they would know how they needed to respond to their teammates etc.

Alas, we do have to make a decision on Allen and whether he can help cleanup our backcourt defensive deficiencies. If he's not the key to making Sexland work, then maybe Sexland can't work? And if that's the case, do we really want to spend $20M/yr or more on a Center?

The fun is just beginning for our rebuild.

[Stillwater]

Getting points from beyond the arc is a pretty significant distinction though, especially when you're able to get opposing defenses to focus on you out there. It opens up the floor for the rest of the team. Also, I think Booker was a better PNR defender when it came to challenging shooters outside the arc and not leaving shooters from that range. Little things like that are difference between you being a net plus on the floor, or not.

In terms of him getting his a18 attempts per game off the bench, I'm not seeing it. There will still be games where he has it cooking and gets them, but I don't see him averaging it. So no, I don't think he'll still get 20 ppg off the bench.

Well we still don't know what the reason for his going under screens compared to over to prevent the 3 attempts, that's something only coaching really knows unless they tell us. Also I agree the additional 3s do matter adn probably the reason why I think Sexon's currently value is probably closer to 20 mil/yr than a max, but I still disagree that he wouldnt' get 20 ppg off the bench. Unless they completely froze him out of the offense he's likely going to be the best option the majority of the time he's on the floor like he currently is.

Given a fact that both Okoro and Garland made an effort to get over screens, not giving a **** is a pretty good educated guess as to the reason.

Nah, unlikely.If it was somebody less driven I could agree but not with Sexton,at least not most of the time. I think the groin issue could be more probably the culprit and maybe that exact attempt to do what he stopped doing is what caused it. Somebody probably told him don't push too hard until you are 100% no need to aggravate it further etc.
It was clearly impacting his shooting esp from deep down the stretch of the season , but he just kept on playing shrugging it off but obviously not doing everything he normally would try to do.

[Stillwater]

Good counter-evidence, but alas, they all stunk in this category.

No argument there. Granted a lot of it also probably had to do with constant injuries and no consistency in the line-up for them to understand how they need to play such defensive scenarios based on who is on the floor with them so they would know how they needed to respond to their teammates etc.

Alas, we do have to make a decision on Allen and whether he can help cleanup our backcourt defensive deficiencies. If he's not the key to making Sexland work, then maybe Sexland can't work? And if that's the case, do we really want to spend $20M/yr or more on a Center?

The fun is just beginning for our rebuild.

Yeah I like JFro but Hartenstein with his passing actually looked better as is /right now and I would not be surprised if they decide to give J what is close to what he supposedly wants without any floor stretching skill that they regret it some without significant improvement as a scoring threat besides catching lobs. I like his mobility and rim protection and they are better having him than not but how much better than a playmaking center like Hartenstein idk

[Revenged25]

No argument there. Granted a lot of it also probably had to do with constant injuries and no consistency in the line-up for them to understand how they need to play such defensive scenarios based on who is on the floor with them so they would know how they needed to respond to their teammates etc.

Alas, we do have to make a decision on Allen and whether he can help cleanup our backcourt defensive deficiencies. If he's not the key to making Sexland work, then maybe Sexland can't work? And if that's the case, do we really want to spend $20M/yr or more on a Center?

The fun is just beginning for our rebuild.

Yeah I like JFro but Hartenstein with his passing actually looked better as is /right now and I would not be surprised if they decide to give J what is close to what he supposedly wants without any floor stretching skill that they regret it some without significant improvement as a scoring threat besides catching lobs. I like his mobility and rim protection and they are better having him than not but how much better than a playmaking center like Hartenstein idk

Ideally we can keep both, but it really depends on how much Hartenstein wants. If we can keep him for about 5-8 mil/yr to be the back-up center that's awesome, even if it's just a 2+1 contract so he can get a chance to increase his value.

[KuruptedCav]

Thanks to the cap LeBron was extremely underpaid ... as nice as it might had been to get Tristan and JR on team friendly deals ... there should be no regrets.

The Cavs relationship with Rich Paul was a huge factor in James' return and it started with drafting TT.

But most importantly we had a championship to win and the ability to pay... so still supply and demand at work even if it was just the Cavs

That cap also limits how crazy an agent can get. In other words there will be a player driven correction to an agent that keeps overplaying his hand long before GMs would need to shun said agent.

I have no regrets on the spending. The Chip is still great and it was never my money.

Im not a fan of the cap or max contracts. I get it from an owners profitability and the NBAPA perspective. But honestly, paying Lebron $80 million wouldn’t have bothered me either.

Teams have to spend $3.3 billion on player salary. That pulls tier two and tier three players into the max range, facilitates stars teaming up, and forces smaller markets to overpay for marginal talent.



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If you didn't have a cap, many mid market teams would effectively become farm teams and eventually fold. It would work out great for the players who were still on active rosters, but not the 150 players who found themselves unemployed. When people talk about what's best for the players, it's important to ask which players.

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Most already are in this situation. Since 1990, 3 teams outside the top 15 markets in the country have won a ring and 4 outside of the top-10.

I get pretending that the system is working and fairer, let’s not forget that David and James came via New Orleans and Cleveland. Harden, Durant and Irving all started in Oklahoma City and Cleveland. Kawhi and George started in San Antonio and Indianapolis.

I’d dare the Lakers or Knicks to spend $500 million on salaries per year and try to turn a profit with the revenue share in place.


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[JonFromVA]

I have no regrets on the spending. The Chip is still great and it was never my money.

Im not a fan of the cap or max contracts. I get it from an owners profitability and the NBAPA perspective. But honestly, paying Lebron $80 million wouldn’t have bothered me either.

Teams have to spend $3.3 billion on player salary. That pulls tier two and tier three players into the max range, facilitates stars teaming up, and forces smaller markets to overpay for marginal talent.



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If you didn't have a cap, many mid market teams would effectively become farm teams and eventually fold. It would work out great for the players who were still on active rosters, but not the 150 players who found themselves unemployed. When people talk about what's best for the players, it's important to ask which players.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Most already are in this situation. Since 1990, 3 teams outside the top 15 markets in the country have won a ring and 4 outside of the top-10.

I get pretending that the system is working and fairer, let’s not forget that David and James came via New Orleans and Cleveland. Harden, Durant and Irving all started in Oklahoma City and Cleveland. Kawhi and George started in San Antonio and Indianapolis.

I’d dare the Lakers or Knicks to spend $500 million on salaries per year and try to turn a profit with the revenue share in place

I don't think the Raptors, Warriors, Spurs, Cavs, Bulls, Rockets, or Mavs did anything that radical to win a championship that other teams couldn't also do. That leaves us with the Lakers and the Heat, and I'd argue that some of their championships fall in that category as well.

[jbk1234]

So you have 0 actual insight. Got it.

I don't think the coaching staff told Sexton, and only Sexton, not to go over screens. I'm certain they didn't tell him just to give up on PNR defense which he did on more than a handful of occasions throughout last season.

I couldn't find stats for how often someone goes over or under a screen in PNR, but in PNR defense here are the stats I found for defensively,

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler/#!?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*CLE&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=1

Apparently although Garland and Okoro went over screens more according to you, they both also gave up more PPP than Sexton did. Even if we want to exclude Okoro due to always guarding the opposing teams best scorer, Garland still did worse than Sexton in PNR defense...

It's not according to me, it's what happened. Did you watch the games? This is an inane conversation. You want to know why his man didn't have a higher PPP, they tried to hide Sexton for most of the season. More often than not, he was on the third worst opposing wing. Yet he still finished with a defensive rating of 118 in this his third season.

Despite his offensive prowess, or perhaps due to the fact he's willing to sacrifice defense for fast break opportunities, the Cavs were -6.3 with him on the floor. He doesn't give a **** about defense, it couldn't be more obvious, and if the Cavs hand him a big contract, without Sexton improving on that end, they're going to be bad team for a long time.

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[Revenged25]

If you didn't have a cap, many mid market teams would effectively become farm teams and eventually fold. It would work out great for the players who were still on active rosters, but not the 150 players who found themselves unemployed. When people talk about what's best for the players, it's important to ask which players.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Most already are in this situation. Since 1990, 3 teams outside the top 15 markets in the country have won a ring and 4 outside of the top-10.

I get pretending that the system is working and fairer, let’s not forget that David and James came via New Orleans and Cleveland. Harden, Durant and Irving all started in Oklahoma City and Cleveland. Kawhi and George started in San Antonio and Indianapolis.

I’d dare the Lakers or Knicks to spend $500 million on salaries per year and try to turn a profit with the revenue share in place

I don't think the Raptors, Warriors, Spurs, Cavs, Bulls, Rockets, or Mavs did anything that radical to win a championship that other teams couldn't also do. That leaves us with the Lakers and the Heat, and I'd argue that some of their championships fall in that category as well.

Rockets, Bulls, Spurs, and Cavs drafted all time greats in Hakeem, Jordan, Duncan, and LeBron. Raptors and Mavs had some really good talent, Dirk especially, but normally they had to have some luck on their side too.

[jbk1234]

I have no regrets on the spending. The Chip is still great and it was never my money.

Im not a fan of the cap or max contracts. I get it from an owners profitability and the NBAPA perspective. But honestly, paying Lebron $80 million wouldn’t have bothered me either.

Teams have to spend $3.3 billion on player salary. That pulls tier two and tier three players into the max range, facilitates stars teaming up, and forces smaller markets to overpay for marginal talent.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

If you didn't have a cap, many mid market teams would effectively become farm teams and eventually fold. It would work out great for the players who were still on active rosters, but not the 150 players who found themselves unemployed. When people talk about what's best for the players, it's important to ask which players.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Most already are in this situation. Since 1990, 3 teams outside the top 15 markets in the country have won a ring and 4 outside of the top-10.

I get pretending that the system is working and fairer, let’s not forget that David and James came via New Orleans and Cleveland. Harden, Durant and Irving all started in Oklahoma City and Cleveland. Kawhi and George started in San Antonio and Indianapolis.

I’d dare the Lakers or Knicks to spend $500 million on salaries per year and try to turn a profit with the revenue share in place.


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You should look at the difference in what the local TV contracts pay before you dare them to do that. We already have a pretty concrete example of what I'm talking about with MLB.

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[JonFromVA]

Most already are in this situation. Since 1990, 3 teams outside the top 15 markets in the country have won a ring and 4 outside of the top-10.

I get pretending that the system is working and fairer, let’s not forget that David and James came via New Orleans and Cleveland. Harden, Durant and Irving all started in Oklahoma City and Cleveland. Kawhi and George started in San Antonio and Indianapolis.

I’d dare the Lakers or Knicks to spend $500 million on salaries per year and try to turn a profit with the revenue share in place

I don't think the Raptors, Warriors, Spurs, Cavs, Bulls, Rockets, or Mavs did anything that radical to win a championship that other teams couldn't also do. That leaves us with the Lakers and the Heat, and I'd argue that some of their championships fall in that category as well.

Rockets, Bulls, Spurs, and Cavs drafted all time greats in Hakeem, Jordan, Duncan, and LeBron. Raptors and Mavs had some really good talent, Dirk especially, but normally they had to have some luck on their side too.

I didn't mean to imply there was any sort of formula to winning a championship or that it was easy, even having the ability to attract multiple HOF'ers has failed the Lakers at least a couple of times. Just that what those teams accomplished didn't have much to do with their market.

[KuruptedCav]

If you didn't have a cap, many mid market teams would effectively become farm teams and eventually fold. It would work out great for the players who were still on active rosters, but not the 150 players who found themselves unemployed. When people talk about what's best for the players, it's important to ask which players.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Most already are in this situation. Since 1990, 3 teams outside the top 15 markets in the country have won a ring and 4 outside of the top-10.

I get pretending that the system is working and fairer, let’s not forget that David and James came via New Orleans and Cleveland. Harden, Durant and Irving all started in Oklahoma City and Cleveland. Kawhi and George started in San Antonio and Indianapolis.

I’d dare the Lakers or Knicks to spend $500 million on salaries per year and try to turn a profit with the revenue share in place.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

You should look at the difference in what the local TV contracts pay before you dare them to do that. We already have a pretty concrete example of what I'm talking about with MLB.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

If you didn't have a cap, many mid market teams would effectively become farm teams and eventually fold. It would work out great for the players who were still on active rosters, but not the 150 players who found themselves unemployed. When people talk about what's best for the players, it's important to ask which players.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Most already are in this situation. Since 1990, 3 teams outside the top 15 markets in the country have won a ring and 4 outside of the top-10.

I get pretending that the system is working and fairer, let’s not forget that David and James came via New Orleans and Cleveland. Harden, Durant and Irving all started in Oklahoma City and Cleveland. Kawhi and George started in San Antonio and Indianapolis.

I’d dare the Lakers or Knicks to spend $500 million on salaries per year and try to turn a profit with the revenue share in place.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

You should look at the difference in what the local TV contracts pay before you dare them to do that. We already have a pretty concrete example of what I'm talking about with MLB.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s fine. At least the people earning the money are getting paid the money; and if you want to keep your franchise cornerstone, you can pony up the half a billion dollars to do so.

In the NBA it isn’t nearly as severe as in MLB. Since 2012 those market setting local deals have been less advantageous. 50% of local revenue is added to the rev-share.

And getting body beaten for 10 rounds before going down doesn’t feel better than getting knocked out early.

Sans Lebron, or the next great NEO basketball player drafted by the Cavs, Cleveland will struggle to compete. Sans a salary cap and punitive luxury tax, Lebron would have let Dan buy him more rings.


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[jbk1234]

Most already are in this situation. Since 1990, 3 teams outside the top 15 markets in the country have won a ring and 4 outside of the top-10.

I get pretending that the system is working and fairer, let’s not forget that David and James came via New Orleans and Cleveland. Harden, Durant and Irving all started in Oklahoma City and Cleveland. Kawhi and George started in San Antonio and Indianapolis.

I’d dare the Lakers or Knicks to spend $500 million on salaries per year and try to turn a profit with the revenue share in place.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

You should look at the difference in what the local TV contracts pay before you dare them to do that. We already have a pretty concrete example of what I'm talking about with MLB.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Most already are in this situation. Since 1990, 3 teams outside the top 15 markets in the country have won a ring and 4 outside of the top-10.

I get pretending that the system is working and fairer, let’s not forget that David and James came via New Orleans and Cleveland. Harden, Durant and Irving all started in Oklahoma City and Cleveland. Kawhi and George started in San Antonio and Indianapolis.

I’d dare the Lakers or Knicks to spend $500 million on salaries per year and try to turn a profit with the revenue share in place.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

You should look at the difference in what the local TV contracts pay before you dare them to do that. We already have a pretty concrete example of what I'm talking about with MLB.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s fine. At least the people earning the money are getting paid the money; and if you want to keep your franchise cornerstone, you can pony up the half a billion dollars to do so.

In the NBA it isn’t nearly as severe as in MLB. Since 2012 those market setting local deals have been less advantageous. 50% of local revenue is added to the rev-share.

And getting body beaten for 10 rounds before going down doesn’t feel better than getting knocked out early.

Sans Lebron, or the next great NEO basketball player drafted by the Cavs, Cleveland will struggle to compete. Sans a salary cap and punitive luxury tax, Lebron would have let Dan buy him more rings.


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You're ignoring a pretty big cause and effect here in terms of MLB. I've bought one ticket to an Indians game in a decade and that's because my buddy from college was in town and wanted to go. I haven't paid for STO since I cut the coard.

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[KuruptedCav]

So, to change it up, what’s a Ben Simmons deal look like?


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[jbk1234]

So, to change it up, what’s a Ben Simmons deal look like?


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It looks like the Cavs are a team with zero spacing. You'd probably have to send out both Okoro and Sexton just to make it workable (while keeping your pick to draft a wing), and even then, I think it will be a disaster on offense. You'd have to add Prince's expiring to make salaries match and he had the highest three point percentage on the team last year.

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[KuruptedCav]

So, to change it up, what’s a Ben Simmons deal look like?


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It looks like the Cavs are a team with zero spacing. You'd probably have to send out both Okoro and Sexton just to make it workable (while keeping your pick to draft a wing), and even then, I think it will be a disaster on offense. You'd have to add Prince's expiring to make salaries match and he had the highest three point percentage on the team last year.

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I was thinking Sexton, Osman, Pick or Okoro. Figure with Thybulle, Okoro might not be the best fit.

Locking in Garland, Simmons and Allen in makes the target players really easy to identify, punts on the Sexton issue, and makes Love a possible play. I just like the defensive potential.


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[jbk1234]

So, to change it up, what’s a Ben Simmons deal look like?


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It looks like the Cavs are a team with zero spacing. You'd probably have to send out both Okoro and Sexton just to make it workable (while keeping your pick to draft a wing), and even then, I think it will be a disaster on offense. You'd have to add Prince's expiring to make salaries match and he had the highest three point percentage on the team last year.

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I was thinking Sexton, Osman, Pick or Okoro. Figure with Thybulle, Okoro might not be the best fit.

Locking in Garland, Simmons and Allen in makes the target players really easy to identify, punts on the Sexton issue, and makes Love a possible play. I just like the defensive potential.


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People are gonna think I'm crazy, but I'm not entirely sure Simmons is worth his contract. Outside of Gobert, I don't think you can justify paying players who can't shoot $30M plus. With Simmons, it's not just that he can't shoot, he simply won't shoot. He doesn't even try to keep the defense honest. When the game slows down in the playoffs, his defender plays so far off him, it junks their offense.

Hes been in the league a long time. That's a lot of offseasons to work on his jumper and he either hasn't done it, or even worse, he has and it hasn't helped, like at all. Non-zero chance that over the next two years Sexton improves his defense, Okoro actually develops a jumper, and Simmons is the worst of the three.



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[jbk1234]

If the Cavs are going to start pushing multiple chips on the table this early, and I don't think they should if their pick lands in the top 3, Jaylen Brown is the guy I'd target.

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[Revenged25]

If the Cavs are going to start pushing multiple chips on the table this early, and I don't think they should if their pick lands in the top 3, Jaylen Brown is the guy I'd target.

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Jaylen Brown is a good one and I also like the idea of Brandon Ingram. Although one or two NOP fans were against it most did say the value were fair in a Sexton/Nance/Prince for BI trade. I don't like trading Sexton or Nance, but getting Sexton's production at a hard position to find quality production of that level would make it worth while and easier to balance the roster as Okoro can slide down to the SG position so we'd just need to find a legit PF then.