Tank World Order (4.0)

[Los_29]

These guys are really ramping up their troll game.

[Pooh_Jeter]

My last word on this because facts don't seem to matter here, but all you need to do is look at the game logs. The Raps sat core players for a variety of reasons hard over the last 2 months of the year. Lowry, VV, OG missed between 50-75% of all the games played in April/May. Siakam missed a 1/4 of them. That's just reality.

There are actual quotes from Lowry and VV saying they're good to play but they're being sat out anyways.

Anyways, If you really believe that all these guys would've missed all these games if the Raps were sitting in the 4th seed instead then I I don't know what to tell you.

“I would like to play when I’m able to, but I understand the other side of things,” VanVleet said Saturday, when he was asked about the possibility of sitting out down the stretch. “It’s just one of those things where we’ve gotta come together as a team and as an organization, and have that open line of communication. But yeah, I’m open to everything. Doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with it or believe in it, but I’m certainly not gonna cause any disruption. So that’s a tough question to answer publicly, for sure. I think that I’m on board with this franchise in whatever direction that we’re going.”

This quote is from April 17th and it's talking about future games.

It's unfortunate that you are trying to make up fake quotes in order to justify your argument.

[Jerry Lucas]

I'll never get over the fact that there are some posters on here who think the Raptors beefed up their frontcourt by signing a 29 year old journeyman and a 23 year old, undrafted G-leaguer.

Yeah I gotta be honest here, I was TWO this year and when the Raps got Birch my first thought was "Nice we got another tank commander to help Baynes." I may have actually posted something along those lines in the Birch thread but I don't remember for sure.

Gillespie my first thoughts were "Random scrub, probably helps the tank because he's a random scrub." Didn't really know anything about Gillespie and even when we signed him I'm pretty sure most people thought he would just be a one and done 10 day.

[OakleyDokely]

There are actual quotes from Lowry and VV saying they're good to play but they're being sat out anyways.

Anyways, If you really believe that all these guys would've missed all these games if the Raps were sitting in the 4th seed instead then I I don't know what to tell you.

“I would like to play when I’m able to, but I understand the other side of things,” VanVleet said Saturday, when he was asked about the possibility of sitting out down the stretch. “It’s just one of those things where we’ve gotta come together as a team and as an organization, and have that open line of communication. But yeah, I’m open to everything. Doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with it or believe in it, but I’m certainly not gonna cause any disruption. So that’s a tough question to answer publicly, for sure. I think that I’m on board with this franchise in whatever direction that we’re going.”

This quote is from April 17th and it's talking about future games.

It's unfortunate that you are trying to make up fake quotes in order to justify your argument.

I give up.

You guys are right.

The Raptors were obviously pushing for a title down the stretch by playing future hall of famers Birch and Flynn.

[OakleyDokely]

Oh these aren't your last words that's for sure. Every time I get on this tank thread it's just a bunch of team mediocre clowns (the same ones ) justifying this mediocre "tank" job.

You're right, the tank was a complete failure.

I mean, nobody good has ever been taken 7th or 8th.

[OakleyDokely]

That starting lineup the Raps dressed on April 18th of Flynn, GTJ, Watson, Boucher, Birch screams playoff push. I can't believe they were trying so hard to win that game.

Starting Bembry and Stanley Johnson 12 and 13 times respectively were also terrible win now moves. Starting a rookie PG 14 times down the stretch also crushed any tank possibilities.

I can't believe they started so many of these great players.

[Los_29]

What I find funny is that the three posters on here thinks our team was awful and wasn't a playoff team and yet they don't think we tanked hard enough despite consistently resting 5 of our players and then having our 6th best player miss the last month of the year.

Are we a bad team or not? Wonder if it ever occurred to them that if we have to rest 6 of our best players in order to lose games then perhaps we aren't a bad team? What team has ever rested 6 of their best players in order to tank? I'm actually genuinely curious to see if this has ever been done.

How many rotation players did Minnesota sit? Detroit? OKC? Orlando?

[Johnny Bball]

We are dangerously close to someone advocating that the Raptors intentionally contracted Covid in order to tank this season.

I see no difference in that compared to what some mediocre basketball thinkers currently beleive about the team not tanking.

Btw...I'm going to assume calling people mediocre in any way isn't any kind of insult in this thread or forum btw since it's continually ignored.

[720]

I'll never get over the fact that there are some posters on here who think the Raptors beefed up their frontcourt by signing a 29 year old journeyman and a 23 year old, undrafted G-leaguer.

Yeah I gotta be honest here, I was TWO this year and when the Raps got Birch my first thought was "Nice we got another tank commander to help Baynes." I may have actually posted something along those lines in the Birch thread but I don't remember for sure.

Gillespie my first thoughts were "Random scrub, probably helps the tank because he's a random scrub." Didn't really know anything about Gillespie and even when we signed him I'm pretty sure most people thought he would just be a one and done 10 day.

That's some sound logic. Replace the minutes of our tank commander with ano..ther tank commander? lol Okay.

In that Birch thread my first post was a reply to Duff saying I hope we don't sign him if it meant Baynes losing minutes.

Team Mediocre can downplay Birch and Gillespie all they want. It makes NO SENSE to replace our worst player's minutes completely IF we are tanking.

[tecumseh18]

I'll never get over the fact that there are some posters on here who think the Raptors beefed up their frontcourt by signing a 29 year old journeyman and a 23 year old, undrafted G-leaguer.

Yeah I gotta be honest here, I was TWO this year and when the Raps got Birch my first thought was "Nice we got another tank commander to help Baynes." I may have actually posted something along those lines in the Birch thread but I don't remember for sure.

Gillespie my first thoughts were "Random scrub, probably helps the tank because he's a random scrub." Didn't really know anything about Gillespie and even when we signed him I'm pretty sure most people thought he would just be a one and done 10 day.

That's some sound logic. Replace the minutes of our tank commander with ano..ther tank commander? lol Okay.

In that Birch thread my first post was a reply to Duff saying I hope we don't sign him if it meant Baynes losing minutes.

Team Mediocre can downplay Birch and Gillespie all they want. It makes NO SENSE to replace our worst player's minutes completely IF we are tanking.

And here's where your simplistic TWO thinking trips you up. As Masai/Nurse said, they were all about developing for the the future. Not all-out tanking (but they sure weren't trying to win). Not the play-in.

So to continue to play a 34-year-old C who wasn't going be on the roster next season makes, uh, NO SENSE. Instead, they played guys who might have a chance of being back here. Along with guys who they might want to showcase for trade (Fred? Pascal? Lowry to the Lakers? They sure weren't showcasing OG.)

I don't know how you TWO guys make it through life if you can't multitask. Personally, I've got work, kids and hobbies (b-ball primarily). Masai's job is more complicated. He has to acquire high-level talent by draft, trade and free agency, develop the cheap guys he has, showcase the vets, and appease the his corporate masters who broadcast the games and sell advertising. That's a lot of balls to juggle. You guys could never handle it in a million years.

[Coco Costanza]

There was no tank job. Losing games when you tried to win is just a failed season. If 6 games left and you sit your guys, it’s not a tank. It’s accepting the writing on the wall.

The Raptors easily could have made a run for the playoffs if they really wanted to. If there was "writing on the wall", it was that they weren't going to advance past the first round, so they opted for a draft pick instead.

No they couldn't have. They wanted to, they sure tried which is what happened in that 8-5 stretch in early April. Then they finally started their hard part of the schedule and couldn't compete vs the good teams and then when it was mathematically impossible to be in the playin then they started playing the bench more (which we should have been doing after that horrid march stretch).

The Raptors were still mathematically in it until early May, and yet were sitting players like Lowry in late April. The fact Masai was fined for sitting players should have told you that even the league wasn't buying these guys were hurt.

[Jerry Lucas]

I'll never get over the fact that there are some posters on here who think the Raptors beefed up their frontcourt by signing a 29 year old journeyman and a 23 year old, undrafted G-leaguer.

Yeah I gotta be honest here, I was TWO this year and when the Raps got Birch my first thought was "Nice we got another tank commander to help Baynes." I may have actually posted something along those lines in the Birch thread but I don't remember for sure.

Gillespie my first thoughts were "Random scrub, probably helps the tank because he's a random scrub." Didn't really know anything about Gillespie and even when we signed him I'm pretty sure most people thought he would just be a one and done 10 day.

That's some sound logic. Replace the minutes of our tank commander with ano..ther tank commander? lol Okay.

In that Birch thread my first post was a reply to Duff saying I hope we don't sign him if it meant Baynes losing minutes.

Team Mediocre can downplay Birch and Gillespie all they want. It makes NO SENSE to replace our worst player's minutes completely IF we are tanking.

That's not what I said though. I thought they were gonna split the 48 minutes at C between Baynes and Birch, meaning 48 minutes of tank commander minutes at C because no one plays 48 minutes a night even on tanking teams. Where did you get "replace Baynes" from "help Baynes"? I still thought Baynes was gonna be getting minutes too.

I would've agreed with your reply to Duff at that time. I was thinking Birch was going to be taking Boucher's minutes at C, not Baynes. Or maybe that's not what I realistically thought, but I was definitely hoping for that.

[Johnny Bball]

I'll never get over the fact that there are some posters on here who think the Raptors beefed up their frontcourt by signing a 29 year old journeyman and a 23 year old, undrafted G-leaguer.

Yeah I gotta be honest here, I was TWO this year and when the Raps got Birch my first thought was "Nice we got another tank commander to help Baynes." I may have actually posted something along those lines in the Birch thread but I don't remember for sure.

Gillespie my first thoughts were "Random scrub, probably helps the tank because he's a random scrub." Didn't really know anything about Gillespie and even when we signed him I'm pretty sure most people thought he would just be a one and done 10 day.

That's some sound logic. Replace the minutes of our tank commander with ano..ther tank commander? lol Okay.

In that Birch thread my first post was a reply to Duff saying I hope we don't sign him if it meant Baynes losing minutes.

Team Mediocre can downplay Birch and Gillespie all they want. It makes NO SENSE to replace our worst player's minutes completely IF we are tanking.

That's because you beleive every knock and bang was a bad injury, except of course for Baynes and you beleive he never even hurt his shoulder even though hew was listed an injured and finally came back he was wrapped. We didn't have a single centre. We signed a G-league guy and a waiver wire castoff and you've somehow equated them with winning. The best part... You just assume if we didn't even have them we wouldn't have won those games, which is... well, typical and just... you know....

Hey btw, you finally going to answer about the comments Lowry made in his interview about not being hurt, being totally rested, or you wanna ignore that for another 2 months while making stuff up?

So much crying going on still.

[Los_29]

Yeah I gotta be honest here, I was TWO this year and when the Raps got Birch my first thought was "Nice we got another tank commander to help Baynes." I may have actually posted something along those lines in the Birch thread but I don't remember for sure.

Gillespie my first thoughts were "Random scrub, probably helps the tank because he's a random scrub." Didn't really know anything about Gillespie and even when we signed him I'm pretty sure most people thought he would just be a one and done 10 day.

That's some sound logic. Replace the minutes of our tank commander with ano..ther tank commander? lol Okay.

In that Birch thread my first post was a reply to Duff saying I hope we don't sign him if it meant Baynes losing minutes.

Team Mediocre can downplay Birch and Gillespie all they want. It makes NO SENSE to replace our worst player's minutes completely IF we are tanking.

That's because you beleive every knock and bang was a bad injury, except of course for Baynes and you beleive he never even hurt his shoulder even though hew was listed an injured and finally came back he was wrapped. We didn't have a single centre. We signed a G-league guy and a waiver wire castoff and you've somehow equated them with winning. The best part... You just assume if we didn't even have them we wouldn't have won those games, which is... well, typical and just... you know....

Hey btw, you finally going to answer about the comments Lowry made in his interview about not being hurt, being totally rested, or you wanna ignore that for another 2 months while making stuff up?

So much crying going on still.

I completely forgot about Baynes. This actually makes it 100x funnier. He was listed as out with a foot injury for the first two weeks of May. But he was fine to play according to three posters on here but OG, FVV, Siakam, Lowry and GTJ were all legitimately "injured."

If all those guys were legitimately injured then the team would seriously have to re-evaluate the entire medical staff. That would be an alarming number of injuries sustained in such a short period of time that it would have to require a thorough investigation.

What a coincidence that all of our best players got injured at the same time with two months left in the year. None of our bench players got injured though. Bembry was fine. Flynn was fine. Birch was fine. Gillespie was fine. Johnson was fine. Yuta was fine. But not our starting lineup.

If these guys all had "serious" injuries why would you send them out at all? This is a franchise that won the championship two years ago and has been one of the best franchises in not just basketball but in all of sports for the past 8 years. Do you think they'd be this incompetent to send out injured players as opposed to shutting them down?

[Mehar]

If the Raptors slide into the top 4 with the luck of the lottery, I wonder what those Team Mediocre members will think? The same ones who told me they rather go for the "play-in", since this team can put up a good fight in the first round, and for the sake of the winning culture going forward. If we are lucky to move up and draft a Suggs or Green, maybe we should ask Wizards fans if they would trade places?

Frankly, this team should have played Baynes 30-40 minutes a game after the trade deadline, and not signed Birch/Gillespie. He was statistically one of the worst starters in the league. Masai made a short sighted move upgrading the Centre position. Signing Birch, allowed Boucher to play well and have big games at the 4 position in some wins. By my calculation, this team could have lost at least 5-6 more games after the trade deadline, if Baynes was playing major minutes, and Pascal and OG were scratched for some more games.

We could have been tied OKC and Cleveland. We should have been 4th or 5th. There was a 4 game win streak in April against Orlando, San Antonio, OKC, and Brooklyn. All close wins, where the starters played heavy minutes, and Baynes was stapled to the bench. The same with the Wizards buzzer beater, and wins against the Lakers and Cleveland also. We could have been at least 4th, with a true tanking effort like OKC. Still glad to be at least 7th though.

[Johnny Bball]

I completely forgot about Baynes. This actually makes it 100x funnier. He was listed as out with a foot injury for the first two weeks of May. But he was fine to play according to three posters on here but OG, FVV, Siakam, Lowry and GTJ were all legitimately "injured."

If all those guys were legitimately injured then the team would seriously have to re-evaluate the entire medical staff. That would be an alarming number of injuries sustained in such a short period of time that it would have to require a thorough investigation.

What a coincidence that all of our best players got injured at the same time with two months left in the year. None of our bench players got injured though. Bembry was fine. Flynn was fine. Birch was fine. Gillespie was fine. Johnson was fine. Yuta was fine. But not our starting lineup.

If these guys all had "serious" injuries why would you send them out at all? This is a franchise that won the championship two years ago and has been one of the best franchises in not just basketball but in all of sports for the past 8 years. Do you think they'd be this incompetent to send out injured players as opposed to shutting them down?

If any of them had a real injury they would have just shut them down for the year. They played them enough just that they didn't revolt.

[pingpongrac]

If the Raptors slide into the top 4 with the luck of the lottery, I wonder what those Team Mediocre members will think? The same ones who told me they rather go for the "play-in", since this team can put up a good fight in the first round, and for the sake of the winning culture going forward. If we are lucky to move up and draft a Suggs or Green, maybe we should ask Wizards fans if they would trade places?

Frankly, this team should have played Baynes 30-40 minutes a game after the trade deadline, and not signed Birch/Gillespie. He was statistically one of the worst starters in the league. Masai made a short sighted move upgrading the Centre position. Signing Birch, allowed Boucher to play well and have big games at the 4 position in some wins. By my calculation, this team could have lost at least 5-6 more games after the trade deadline, if Baynes was playing major minutes, and Pascal and OG were scratched for some more games.

We could have been tied OKC and Cleveland. We should have been 4th or 5th. There was a 4 game win streak in April against Orlando, San Antonio, OKC, and Brooklyn. All close wins, where the starters played heavy minutes, and Baynes was stapled to the bench. The same with the Wizards buzzer beater, and wins against the Lakers and Cleveland also. We could have been at least 4th, with a true tanking effort like OKC. Still glad to be at least 7th though.

The argument that we would have lost 4 or 5 extra games post-trade deadline if we didn't sign Birch/Gillespie + played Baynes 30 MPG is incredibly shortsighted and just flat-out wrong. Of our 9 wins post-trade deadline, 4 were against tanking teams (2 were blowouts against Cleveland) and 1 was against the Warriors without Curry and Green (which was a 53-point win). Those were not easy games to lose regardless of who was on the floor (Siakam+FVV+Lowry missed the first Cavs game, Siakam+OG+Lowry missed the Magic game, Siakam+OG+FVV+Lowry missed the OKC game). Even the games against the Wizards (who were without Beal+Rui and before they turned their season around while we were without FVV+Lowry) and Spurs (no FVV+Lowry) aren't sure losses even if we sat a few more starters.

Regarding Birch/Gillespie, they were very hit or miss. Birch was mostly very good (12/8/2 on 60 TS% with a +4.8 on/off rating), but Gillespie was statistically one of the worst players in the NBA (-16.2 on/off rating and 457th in NetRTG). Overall, they produced more on the stat sheet, but their combined impact was marginally better than Baynes for the season. They weren't the reason we won a whopping 7 times in our last 20 games.

[NotMyKawhi]

The odds at getting top 4 are way higher at 7 than 8!


not only are they higher but we'd have the same odds as 9 and 10 if we were 8th spot. Huge! Number 7th has been really lucky throughout history

[Mehar]

If the Raptors slide into the top 4 with the luck of the lottery, I wonder what those Team Mediocre members will think? The same ones who told me they rather go for the "play-in", since this team can put up a good fight in the first round, and for the sake of the winning culture going forward. If we are lucky to move up and draft a Suggs or Green, maybe we should ask Wizards fans if they would trade places?

Frankly, this team should have played Baynes 30-40 minutes a game after the trade deadline, and not signed Birch/Gillespie. He was statistically one of the worst starters in the league. Masai made a short sighted move upgrading the Centre position. Signing Birch, allowed Boucher to play well and have big games at the 4 position in some wins. By my calculation, this team could have lost at least 5-6 more games after the trade deadline, if Baynes was playing major minutes, and Pascal and OG were scratched for some more games.

We could have been tied OKC and Cleveland. We should have been 4th or 5th. There was a 4 game win streak in April against Orlando, San Antonio, OKC, and Brooklyn. All close wins, where the starters played heavy minutes, and Baynes was stapled to the bench. The same with the Wizards buzzer beater, and wins against the Lakers and Cleveland also. We could have been at least 4th, with a true tanking effort like OKC. Still glad to be at least 7th though.

The argument that we would have lost 4 or 5 extra games post-trade deadline if we didn't sign Birch/Gillespie + played Baynes 30 MPG is incredibly shortsighted and just flat-out wrong. Of our 9 wins post-trade deadline, 4 were against tanking teams (2 were blowouts against Cleveland) and 1 was against the Warriors without Curry and Green (which was a 53-point win). Those were not easy games to lose regardless of who was on the floor (Siakam+FVV+Lowry missed the first Cavs game, Siakam+OG+Lowry missed the Magic game, Siakam+OG+FVV+Lowry missed the OKC game). Even the games against the Wizards (who were without Beal+Rui and before they turned their season around while we were without FVV+Lowry) and Spurs (no FVV+Lowry) aren't sure losses even if we sat a few more starters.

Regarding Birch/Gillespie, they were very hit or miss. Birch was mostly very good (12/8/2 on 60 TS% with a +4.8 on/off rating), but Gillespie was statistically one of the worst players in the NBA (-16.2 on/off rating and 457th in NetRTG). Overall, they produced more on the stat sheet, but their combined impact was marginally better than Baynes for the season. They weren't the reason we won a whopping 7 times in our last 20 games.

I am not talking about the Warriors game and the first Cavs game, which was a blowout. I specifically mentioned 5-6 games that should have been losses, if the team truly wanted to tank like OKC. The 4 game win streak in April (Brooklyn, OKC, Orlando, and San Antonio) should have been losses, if this team wanted to "tank". They lost by 6 points to OKC in a back and forth affair, and the starters playing major minutes. The Orlando game was close, until they pulled away and won by 11 points. Those could have been losses, if Nurse was told to tank.

I am also talking about the Lakers win, and the Wizards buzzer beater. Forget who was not playing. If this team wanted to tank, and lose those 6 games, Masai could have instructed Nurse to play Baynes 35-40 minutes, and reduce the minutes of FVV, OG and Pascal in those wins. I do not buy the argument this team was tanking in April. Maybe towards the end of the year. If this team was tanking- Birch would not have been signed, and guys like Pascal and OG would have rested more, and not played major minutes in some of those wins. Same with FVV. A proper tank job, and this team should have gotten at least 5-6 more losses. Those losses would have probably meant the 4th worst record. However, I am hopeful we can still get it on the draft lottery.

[Mehar]

I'll never get over the fact that there are some posters on here who think the Raptors beefed up their frontcourt by signing a 29 year old journeyman and a 23 year old, undrafted G-leaguer.

Yeah I gotta be honest here, I was TWO this year and when the Raps got Birch my first thought was "Nice we got another tank commander to help Baynes." I may have actually posted something along those lines in the Birch thread but I don't remember for sure.

Gillespie my first thoughts were "Random scrub, probably helps the tank because he's a random scrub." Didn't really know anything about Gillespie and even when we signed him I'm pretty sure most people thought he would just be a one and done 10 day.

That's some sound logic. Replace the minutes of our tank commander with ano..ther tank commander? lol Okay.

In that Birch thread my first post was a reply to Duff saying I hope we don't sign him if it meant Baynes losing minutes.

Team Mediocre can downplay Birch and Gillespie all they want. It makes NO SENSE to replace our worst player's minutes completely IF we are tanking.

Absolutely agree with this. If you are tanking, why are you gonna replace one of the worst starting Centres in the league, and upgrade that position with Birch? Birch is no all-star, but he is a better rebounder and overall player than Baynes. I said it when the signing was made. It was not a good move, since it meant putting Baynes on the bench. I wanted to do what OKC was doing for one more month, to ensure I got the 4th pick. Instead this team goes on a 4 game win streak in April, and beats the Wizards in a buzzer beater, along with the Lakers. We lose those 5-6 games like we should of, and we are possibly looking at the 4th pick overall.

Then Baynes sat on the bench for a month, and Birch played some good games in some wins for this team. Team Mediocre were the same clowns who were saying that this team should go for the "play-in", since they can pull off an upset in the first round; and for the winning culture overall since they have a decent Centre in Birch now. This was after the team was on a 4 game win streak in April. No need to debate these people. This team was not truly tanking in April.