I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr

[CobyWhite0]

Perfect timing for this thread... if you've seen MPJ wearing a back brace during today's shootaround. Reports are that he will play, but they don't know how effective he can be.

He is having a cracker of a game so far.

That's funny, because in the US - especially in Florida - "cracker" is often used as a derogatory word for white people. So your statement could be taken as "he's playing like a white guy tonight"

[d boy gentleman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

I wanted a MPJ, Mitch Rob draft that year.

Again hindsight, but imagine we tanked right the following year, get the 2nd pick and run with Ja, MPJ and Mitch Rob.

That's how you rebuild.

Just dismiss the fact that MPJ's back issues is what caused him to fall and Robinson's attitude was also an issue and why he fell to the 2nd.

Where in any of that did I dismiss anything? I'm well aware of MPJs back issues at the time, draft him, sit him the year hence improving the tanking process.

Where are MRobs attitude problems now? Haven't heard any issues since he's been drafted.

This was just my personal preference at the time and of as I mentioned all in hindsight obviously.

And yes you can still tank correctly, as dice mentioned losing more games increases your odd of a better pick, they've just evened it out more now.

And yet there is evidence that "tanking correctly" guarantees a top 4 pick. The famed Zion/Ja draft is prime example of teams that tanked and it not working out for them at all.

[step]

Perfect timing for this thread... if you've seen MPJ wearing a back brace during today's shootaround. Reports are that he will play, but they don't know how effective he can be.

He is having a cracker of a game so far.

That's funny, because in the US - especially in Florida - "cracker" is often used as a derogatory word for white people. So your statement could be taken as "he's playing like a white guy tonight"

The beauty of the English language:
adjective
crack·er, Informal. wild; crazy:

[kulaz3000]

Perfect timing for this thread... if you've seen MPJ wearing a back brace during today's shootaround. Reports are that he will play, but they don't know how effective he can be.

He is having a cracker of a game so far.

That's funny, because in the US - especially in Florida - "cracker" is often used as a derogatory word for white people. So your statement could be taken as "he's playing like a white guy tonight"

Apologies, it must be the Australian influence rubbing off!

[CobyWhite0]

He is having a cracker of a game so far.

That's funny, because in the US - especially in Florida - "cracker" is often used as a derogatory word for white people. So your statement could be taken as "he's playing like a white guy tonight"

Apologies, it must be the Australian influence rubbing off!

No apologies necessary, I knew it had to be an Aussie saying!

And it was soooooo worth it - my 17-year-old couldn't care less about sports, but when I told him what you wrote (and that it was an Aussie thing), he laughed his arse off!!

[step]

That's funny, because in the US - especially in Florida - "cracker" is often used as a derogatory word for white people. So your statement could be taken as "he's playing like a white guy tonight"

Apologies, it must be the Australian influence rubbing off!

No apologies necessary, I knew it had to be an Aussie saying!

And it was soooooo worth it - my 17-year-old couldn't care less about sports, but when I told him what you wrote (and that it was an Aussie thing), he laughed his arse off!!

Can also confirm we Aussies use it commonly as a positive term too. We are upside down after all...

[Muzbar]

Just dismiss the fact that MPJ's back issues is what caused him to fall and Robinson's attitude was also an issue and why he fell to the 2nd.

Where in any of that did I dismiss anything? I'm well aware of MPJs back issues at the time, draft him, sit him the year hence improving the tanking process.

Where are MRobs attitude problems now? Haven't heard any issues since he's been drafted.

This was just my personal preference at the time and of as I mentioned all in hindsight obviously.

And yes you can still tank correctly, as dice mentioned losing more games increases your odd of a better pick, they've just evened it out more now.

And yet there is evidence that "tanking correctly" guarantees a top 4 pick. The famed Zion/Ja draft is prime example of teams that tanked and it not working out for them at all.

I think you're getting reality and imaginary mixed up.

I said "imagine we tanked right the following year and got the no. 2 pick" I never said that it was reality and that it would all play out the same.

I know that the odds have changed and you're only guaranteed a top 5 pick if you're dead last, we had the 4th worst record that year and dropped back to 7th, I know what happened, I watched the lottery live.

Never once did I say that "if we had tanked properly we would have had a top 2 pick", I know how the lottery system works so please stop making it out as if that's what I'm saying.

This is more of how I wanted it to happen rather than 'it should have happened this way'.

[Muzbar]

Apologies, it must be the Australian influence rubbing off!

No apologies necessary, I knew it had to be an Aussie saying!

And it was soooooo worth it - my 17-year-old couldn't care less about sports, but when I told him what you wrote (and that it was an Aussie thing), he laughed his arse off!!

Can also confirm we Aussies use it commonly as a positive term too. We are upside down after all...

As another Aussie I can also confirm that having a 'cracker' of a game means having a damn good game.

[The Box Office]

Let it go. How many times do you have to repeat this? I had to let go of ACME passing up on Tyrese Haliburton for Patrick Williams. I'll never forget, but it's no longer a big deal to me. Can't reverse time.

[GimmeDat]

I don't know how many people remember, but the injury concerns were seriously bad leading in to this draft. Like many were concerned he was damaged goods and wouldn't ever be healthy, especially when you factor in the absolutely abysmal run of health between his siblings.

I don't think many people doubted his ability. He was an elite HS prospect and I think it was fairly unanimous he'd be a 20+ppg scorer if healthy, though some concerns around his defense and handle/passing knocked him down a peg as a prospect (and many of those issues are still apparent in his game).

He's been exceptionally healthy with injuries so far, and in an amazing offensive fit with Denver.

Conversely, WCJ was a really great prospect, I maintain that to this day. Maybe he's underwhelmed, maybe the injuries hampered his momentum, maybe Boylen's terrible coaching grossly mis-used him and shattered his confidence. I believe all those things are true, to an extent. I also don't think we can write him off yet - he's 21 and only played 22 games for his new team, on another roster that I don't think is a great fit for him.

Ultimately, we'd all obviously prefer MPJ today than WCJ. Their career trajectories may continue to alter and you could have this same conversation with a different outcome multiple ways.

I think for me it comes down to the fact that there is an element of luck and a whole bunch of post-draft variables that determine a players fate. WCJ seemed like an absolutely justifiable pick at the time and I don't hold the old Bulls FO in bad stead for making it. MPJ would've also been a perfectly reasonable pick at 4, but just remember, teams 5 and 6 passed on him too... there was a legitimate argument against drafting him in that range that appeared to be the train of thought from the 6 teams ahead of where he was picked.

Obviously, he was a massive name prospect coming out of HS, so the way things have panned out, it's easy for a lot of people to say it was obvious. But it doesn't always pan out that way.

[JimmyJammer]

I still remember KC Johnson mentioning a rumor about the Bulls possibly drafting Wendell Carter on the day of the draft, but I ignored it knowing KC is never one to have breaking news. Chandler Hutchison, Porter's buddy, was already making plans to be his teammate.

[d boy gentleman]

Where in any of that did I dismiss anything? I'm well aware of MPJs back issues at the time, draft him, sit him the year hence improving the tanking process.

Where are MRobs attitude problems now? Haven't heard any issues since he's been drafted.

This was just my personal preference at the time and of as I mentioned all in hindsight obviously.

And yes you can still tank correctly, as dice mentioned losing more games increases your odd of a better pick, they've just evened it out more now.

And yet there is evidence that "tanking correctly" guarantees a top 4 pick. The famed Zion/Ja draft is prime example of teams that tanked and it not working out for them at all.

I think you're getting reality and imaginary mixed up.

I said "imagine we tanked right the following year and got the no. 2 pick" I never said that it was reality and that it would all play out the same.

I know that the odds have changed and you're only guaranteed a top 5 pick if you're dead last, we had the 4th worst record that year and dropped back to 7th, I know what happened, I watched the lottery live.

Never once did I say that "if we had tanked properly we would have had a top 2 pick", I know how the lottery system works so please stop making it out as if that's what I'm saying.

This is more of how I wanted it to happen rather than 'it should have happened this way'.

"Tanking right" still wouldn't have guaranteed anything. You still would be at the mercy of the draft lottery. That's what I'm saying; nothing imaginary about that.

[kodo]

Wendell was also supposed to be an elite passer as a center, which is why he was much higher on the draft boards than a comparable guy like Robert Williams.

The Bulls tried to make this happen every year for Wendell. Even this year under Billy who loves big man passing, Wendell was practically force fed the ball in the first 3 games to initiate the offense like Noah. It was clear that was a disaster, and Wendell wasn't comfortable with it, and we moved away from it and went more to Thad.

IMO one of the reasons he looks better in Orlando is because they don't have visions of what he was supposed to be on all these wild scouting reports on draft night, eg a 3P shooter and secondary passer like Draymond, and just looked at what he did well in the NBA so far (defend & board) and stuck to that.

[johnnyvann840]

No apologies necessary, I knew it had to be an Aussie saying!

And it was soooooo worth it - my 17-year-old couldn't care less about sports, but when I told him what you wrote (and that it was an Aussie thing), he laughed his arse off!!

Can also confirm we Aussies use it commonly as a positive term too. We are upside down after all...

As another Aussie I can also confirm that having a 'cracker' of a game means having a damn good game.

I think he meant it as a negative term. Porter was awful last night. He was 0-8 I think at one point. Finished the game 3-13 and was in foul trouble. He looked like his back was really bothering him. Stiff as a board.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

I still remember KC Johnson mentioning a rumor about the Bulls possibly drafting Wendell Carter on the day of the draft, but I ignored it knowing KC is never one to have breaking news. Chandler Hutchison, Porter's buddy, was already making plans to be his teammate.

The picture of what should have been, MPJ and Hutch before the draft.

[TheJordanRule]

Wendell was also supposed to be an elite passer as a center, which is why he was much higher on the draft boards than a comparable guy like Robert Williams.

The Bulls tried to make this happen every year for Wendell. Even this year under Billy who loves big man passing, Wendell was practically force fed the ball in the first 3 games to initiate the offense like Noah. It was clear that was a disaster, and Wendell wasn't comfortable with it, and we moved away from it and went more to Thad.

IMO one of the reasons he looks better in Orlando is because they don't have visions of what he was supposed to be on all these wild scouting reports on draft night, eg a 3P shooter and secondary passer like Draymond, and just looked at what he did well in the NBA so far (defend & board) and stuck to that.

Good points, but I think you're being too kind when you talk about WC's "success" in Orlando. He was trash in the month of May, with a FG percentage of 35 %, 7.4 points per game, and 8.4 rebounds... And he's going to get outplayed by Bamba for the role even if he doesn't self destruct by continuing to focus on getting stronger at the cost of speed.

[CobyWhite0]

Can also confirm we Aussies use it commonly as a positive term too. We are upside down after all...

As another Aussie I can also confirm that having a 'cracker' of a game means having a damn good game.

I think he meant it as a negative term. Porter was awful last night. He was 0-8 I think at one point. Finished the game 3-13 and was in foul trouble. He looked like his back was really bothering him. Stiff as a board.

Yeah, there's no doubt he was using it as a negative term. And there's no doubt MPJ's back was really bothering him, they reported it before the game. I posted the report it in the previous page of this thread:

Perfect timing for this thread... if you've seen MPJ wearing a back brace during today's shootaround. Reports are that he will play, but they don't know how effective he can be.

[TheJordanRule]

I was never impressed by Wendell Carter when he was at Duke . It was just an awful Draft pick

Hindsight is 20/20 only because we get to see how these prospects developed.

In college, WC:
PER 28.2
TS % 62.8
3 PT % 41.3
BPG 2.2
RPG 9.1

...in very limited minutes (26.9 per game), in his freshman season, playing second fiddle to Bagley.

From there, Carter basically took a dive after his rookie season with us, focusing on developing his strength at the very sharp cost of his speed, which was already average to begin with and now, after that initial burst of excitement in Orlando, he's gone back to falling off the edge. Carter was a strong bet. At the time he was a much better bet than MPJ because, as Doug said, most prospects with injury issues usually bust or have short lived careers before they get hurt again. And, although MPJ traveled a long painful number of years to beat the bust label, there's no proof that he won't reinjure his back at some point in the future and be out of the NBA.

The most important thing you say is the bulking up was bad for him because he lost his speed because of it.

This is a problem that all Bulls have had during the garpax era. They always wanted every player to bulk up. It costed us Rose and maybe a championship with him. Jo too, Luol, Lauri definitely, WCJ, you name them.
Speed is way more important than bulk. Especially for guys that live from their speed.

I hope the new guys will put way more emphasis on speed and quickness instead of plodding bulk. Strength is nice, but not the bulky kind of strength.

You can see it with Lauri being too big, he got slow from all the weight and he isn't the guy to bang around, you need him lean and quick so he may have a chance to make a quick move. Instead he can't move his too heavy body around a slow center.

Sent from my POT-LX1 using RealGM mobile app

This is a rather underrated point, Samwana. The old FO was probably still functioning under 90s basketball goals for athletes in this sense. Pax played in the era of hand checking and physical defense, back when super fast athletes were incredibly rare. He may have been overemphasizing strength. To make matters worse, we've always had a crack team of medical experts who may be snorting up from time to time, blowing it on assessing injuries at a considerably higher rate than what I see the NBA's best medical support teams doing. If MPJ comes to our roster, is it a lock that our medical team reads MPJ's injury concerns correctly, and speeds his recovery along the way that the Nuggets did? I would like to think so, but maybe not.

[dice]

The Zion/Ja draft was year one of the anti-tanking and the Pelicans, Grizzlies and Lakers drafted 1, 2 and 4 with the 7th, 9th and 11th best odds whereas the the teams with the best odds drafted 3, 5, 6 and 7. There is no such thing as "tanking right"

of course there is. it's just less likely to work out than it used to be. and it was never a guarantee of anything in the lotto era

and you picked a terrible year as an example. the pelicans ended up with zion because...wait for it...they played AD sparingly in an effort to both tank and preserve his trade value!

I didn't pick that year; I responded to the post I quoted said the following:

"Again hindsight, but imagine we tanked right the following year, get the 2nd pick and run with Ja, MPJ and Mitch Rob."

That post specifically pointed out the 2019 draft and the results of that draft showed that "tanked right" would have gotten you the 3rd, 5th, 6th or 7th pick and wouldn't have gotten you Zion or Ja because team with the 7th and 9th best odds jumped over 'tanked right" and drafted 1st and 2nd.

the pelicans tanked right and got zion for their efforts

You also admitted that tanking is less likely to work out. Yet, you still advocate tanking despite flattened odds and the likelihood that it's not going to work out.

i didn't advocate tanking. i said there's a right way to do it if you DO decide to go that route. i will say that there's still an argument for tanking. the incentive structure has just shifted. it's now less important to go all-out starting in the preseason in an effort to be a bottom feeder (a la "the process"). but there's also now MORE incentive to tank at season's end for teams whose playoff hopes are fading away

[Am2626]

of course there is. it's just less likely to work out than it used to be. and it was never a guarantee of anything in the lotto era

and you picked a terrible year as an example. the pelicans ended up with zion because...wait for it...they played AD sparingly in an effort to both tank and preserve his trade value!

I didn't pick that year; I responded to the post I quoted said the following:

"Again hindsight, but imagine we tanked right the following year, get the 2nd pick and run with Ja, MPJ and Mitch Rob."

That post specifically pointed out the 2019 draft and the results of that draft showed that "tanked right" would have gotten you the 3rd, 5th, 6th or 7th pick and wouldn't have gotten you Zion or Ja because team with the 7th and 9th best odds jumped over 'tanked right" and drafted 1st and 2nd.

the pelicans tanked right and got zion for their efforts

You also admitted that tanking is less likely to work out. Yet, you still advocate tanking despite flattened odds and the likelihood that it's not going to work out.

i didn't advocate tanking. i said there's a right way to do it if you DO decide to go that route. i will say that there's still an argument for tanking. the incentive structure has just shifted. it's now less important to go all-out starting in the preseason in an effort to be a bottom feeder (a la "the process"). but there's also now MORE incentive to tank at season's end for teams whose playoff hopes are fading away

There were six teams that year including the Bulls that finished with worst records than the Pelicans so I don’t know how you can come to the conclusion that the Pelicans tanked right? If anything the Bulls tanked harder and still got a worst draft pick. Outright tanking doesn’t work with the new lottery odds.