Replace MJ/Pippen with Kobe/LeBron

[falcolombardi]

Jordan just isn't better than either of those guys, he's clearly better. Neither of those guys come close to his ability as a scorer. That's why it's so easy to play next to him; your role is well defined, and you know that Jordan is the best scorer the game has ever seen.

Any great player that goes along side Jordan will undisputedly be the Robin, and Jordan is so dominant that it's easy to accept. That's huge.

Kobe and LeBron will have grown up not watching Jordan, not playing AAU basketball, not shooting 3 pointers, and not wearing Nikes. What kind of players are they?

David Thompson? (the guy jordan himself based his game on), Adrián dantley?, elgin baylor?, Jerry west?, Oscar robertson?, magic johnson?

jordan was not the first world class athlete perimeter player to score a lot, lead his team in usage, play from the post or shoot midrange pull ups and drive to the hoop a lot

dantley had a dominant post game as a wing kobe could learn from, David Thompson the super athetic slasher game. Jerry west existed to take cues from in pull up shooting

lebron could learn his style from magic (who was more similar to him that jordan anyway), from oscar, from baylor. etc

also i thingh a lot of people in this board would disagree witt the notion that lebron is not close to jordan

[Asianiac_24]

Assuming they stay together, they probably win at least 8.

1984-1986: Just Kobe, no ring.
1987: rookie LeBron.
1988: 2000 Kobe and 2004 LeBron. I could see it, but unlikely.
1989: 01 Kobe/05 Bron. Ring.
1990: 02 Kobe/06 Bron. Ring.
1991: 100% ring.
1992: 04 Kobe/08 Bron. Ring.
93: 05 Kobe/09 LeBron. This is a down year for Kobe, but 09 LeBron is a beast. Ring.
94: Definitely ring.
95: 07 Kobe/11 LeBron. Ring.
96-98: All rings.
99+: 2011 Kobe+ is a clear step below his prime self.

That gives 10 rings. Take 1-2 out due to fatigue/injury from so many playoff games, which should land at about 8-9.

[VanWest82]

They'd surely win while together but I don't think they'd stay together for long. The reason MJ and Pippen worked is because they sacrificed for one another. Mike gave up the ball and Scottie took over as the main defender. Kobe sacrificed for Shaq but only in the playoffs. He sacrificed for Nash and on the 2008 Olympic team, but he was pretty selfish a lot of the time. Lebron has really only sacrificed one year in 2011, otherwise it's always been about him. Hard to see that working.

Hmm...and where did Kyrie’s 30% usage rate twice in playoffs and AD’s last year come from? Before someone chimes in with “usage rate doesn’t necessarily define whether or not a player is ball dominant,” go find players who played through the finals who had 30% usage rates and weren’t the team’s best player. It’s rare, yet James has two different teammates over three different playoffs post 1st option usage rates.

BTW, NBA.com has data for how many dribbles per touch, time per touch, players posted. You can go look at that, look at Kyrie’s usage rate, compare historically, and see if you still believe this BS narrative.

You can say it's BS but I suspect it's an opinion shared by a good number of knowledgeable NBA fans.

AD is a big and a bad example. Over 2/3 of his baskets are assisted, many of which by Lebron. He's a much more natural fit. Kobe was more of a creator (albeit largely for himself at times) and therein lies the issue.

Kyrie and DWade are better examples. Wade ultimately was the one who sacrificed (helping to make my point). There was always a bit of tension with Kyrie who asked out after three years (also helping make my point). So you can cherry-pick all the playoff series you want but the facts are that you don't usually see successful, ultra high usage creator combos (Russ and KD are a good counter example), and that's before you get the egos involved which given what we know about those two in particular would definitely be a factor. Perhaps it would've worked had they had similar career arcs to the OKC guys + Kyrie and teamed up later on as friends.

[homecourtloss]

They'd surely win while together but I don't think they'd stay together for long. The reason MJ and Pippen worked is because they sacrificed for one another. Mike gave up the ball and Scottie took over as the main defender. Kobe sacrificed for Shaq but only in the playoffs. He sacrificed for Nash and on the 2008 Olympic team, but he was pretty selfish a lot of the time. Lebron has really only sacrificed one year in 2011, otherwise it's always been about him. Hard to see that working.

Hmm...and where did Kyrie’s 30% usage rate twice in playoffs and AD’s last year come from? Before someone chimes in with “usage rate doesn’t necessarily define whether or not a player is ball dominant,” go find players who played through the finals who had 30% usage rates and weren’t the team’s best player. It’s rare, yet James has two different teammates over three different playoffs post 1st option usage rates.

BTW, NBA.com has data for how many dribbles per touch, time per touch, players posted. You can go look at that, look at Kyrie’s usage rate, compare historically, and see if you still believe this BS narrative.

You can say it's BS but I suspect it's an opinion shared by a good number of knowledgeable NBA fans.

AD is a big and a bad example. Over 2/3 of his baskets are assisted, many of which by Lebron. He's a much more natural fit. Kobe was more of a creator (albeit largely for himself at times) and therein lies the issue.

Kyrie and DWade are better examples. Wade ultimately was the one who sacrificed (helping to make my point). There was always a bit of tension with Kyrie who asked out after three years (also helping make my point). So you can cherry-pick all the playoff series you want but the facts are that you don't usually see successful, ultra high usage creator combos (Russ and KD are a good counter example), and that's before you get the egos involved which given what we know about those two in particular would definitely be a factor. Perhaps it would've worked had they had similar career arcs to the OKC guys + Kyrie and teamed up later on as friends.

“It’s an opinion shared by other people.”

Give me objective data — you’ve provided none other than narrative. Find me another all time great who played with two other players who had 30% usage rates in the playoffs. Go look at the time Kyrie held the ball per touch, dribbles per touch (hint: more than LeBron) and then continue with this narrative.

As for AD, before last year, the narrative was that James couldn’t play with bigs. Suddenly that’s disappeared.

[falcolombardi]

They'd surely win while together but I don't think they'd stay together for long. The reason MJ and Pippen worked is because they sacrificed for one another. Mike gave up the ball and Scottie took over as the main defender. Kobe sacrificed for Shaq but only in the playoffs. He sacrificed for Nash and on the 2008 Olympic team, but he was pretty selfish a lot of the time. Lebron has really only sacrificed one year in 2011, otherwise it's always been about him. Hard to see that working.

Hmm...and where did Kyrie’s 30% usage rate twice in playoffs and AD’s last year come from? Before someone chimes in with “usage rate doesn’t necessarily define whether or not a player is ball dominant,” go find players who played through the finals who had 30% usage rates and weren’t the team’s best player. It’s rare, yet James has two different teammates over three different playoffs post 1st option usage rates.

BTW, NBA.com has data for how many dribbles per touch, time per touch, players posted. You can go look at that, look at Kyrie’s usage rate, compare historically, and see if you still believe this BS narrative.

You can say it's BS but I suspect it's an opinion shared by a good number of knowledgeable NBA fans.

AD is a big and a bad example. Over 2/3 of his baskets are assisted, many of which by Lebron. He's a much more natural fit. Kobe was more of a creator (albeit largely for himself at times) and therein lies the issue.

Kyrie and DWade are better examples. Wade ultimately was the one who sacrificed (helping to make my point). There was always a bit of tension with Kyrie who asked out after three years (also helping make my point). So you can cherry-pick all the playoff series you want but the facts are that you don't usually see successful, ultra high usage creator combos (Russ and KD are a good counter example), and that's before you get the egos involved which given what we know about those two in particular would definitely be a factor. Perhaps it would've worked had they had similar career arcs to the OKC guys + Kyrie and teamed up later on as friends.

wade in 2011 was much closer to lebron in level that kyrie ever was

wade had a ring which lebron didnt, on the other hand kyrie had not made the playoffs before lebron came back to cleveland, let alone win a ring

yet the one who had no issue defering and ignoring ego was wade

then kyrie had no issue years later becoming a third option in his prime in brooklyn in a lower usage role than he had in cavs

that first lebron took a backseat thinking it was the best for miami in 2011 (being the mvp of the league)then wade did the same thingh in 2012 to make it work (being miami his franchise) shows that big mega stars can coexist, wade and lebron had much bigger reasons to have am ego than kyrie yet were fine with taking back seats which kyrie was not until years later

[VanWest82]

Wade and Lebron were good friends teaming up later on in their careers. Kyrie, Harden, and Durant were good friends teaming up later on in their careers. That's the type of situation where you see sacrifice.

But again, we really haven't seen much sacrificing from Lebron. Outside of one year he's had the ball in his hands as the lead decision maker the vast majority of the time. Kobe battled selfish tendencies throughout his career.

I'm not saying I know for certain or anything like that, but you guys are acting like this is some completely unfounded hypothesis. You have two players with the largest egos we've seen in NBA history who have both shown a lack of desire to sacrifice their games. It's not a logical stretch to think they might've had issues playing together and ultimately split up to stretch their wings. I guess if the argument is they come along in the 80s where there's little player movement and massive financial incentives to stay together then maybe they do. I just don't believe they would've.

[VanWest82]

As for AD, before last year, the narrative was that James couldn’t play with bigs. Suddenly that’s disappeared.

No one who knows anything about NBA was saying Lebron and AD would be a bad pairing. They're the perfect pairing. It's a big part of the reason why people got so mad when Bron convinced AD to go scorched Earth on the Pels.

[homecourtloss]

As for AD, before last year, the narrative was that James couldn’t play with bigs. Suddenly that’s disappeared.

No one who knows anything about NBA was saying Lebron and AD would be a bad pairing. They're the perfect pairing. It's a big part of the reason why people got so mad when Bron convinced AD to go scorched Earth on the Pels.

There were literally multiple threads here and elsewhere about how “LeBron would turn AD into Bosh/Love.”

Of course, never mind the fact that Love the way he was used created two all time great offenses.

[VanWest82]

As for AD, before last year, the narrative was that James couldn’t play with bigs. Suddenly that’s disappeared.

No one who knows anything about NBA was saying Lebron and AD would be a bad pairing. They're the perfect pairing. It's a big part of the reason why people got so mad when Bron convinced AD to go scorched Earth on the Pels.

There were literally multiple threads here and elsewhere about how “LeBron would turn AD into Bosh/Love.”

Of course, never mind the fact that Love the way he was used created two all time great offenses.

Hah I rest my case. Bosh and Love sacrificed. Both those guys played lots with the ball as a creator from the elbow / pinch post prior to joining Lebron. AD did some of that too but he's always been most effective as a screener/roller who plays above the rim. Anyone who watched AD and Rondo In NO knew Bron/Davis would be a terrific pairing, especially defensively where AD gives Lebron some cover given he frequently rests on the weaker assignment.

Cavs had good offenses because they not only had Lebron, Love, and Kyrie but shooters like JR, Korver, Frye, RJ, etc. They were absolutely stacked. It had almost nothing to do with how they optimized Love or whatever.

[penbeast0]

Does Kobe play baseball for a couple years?

That would be LeBron.

[falcolombardi]

No one who knows anything about NBA was saying Lebron and AD would be a bad pairing. They're the perfect pairing. It's a big part of the reason why people got so mad when Bron convinced AD to go scorched Earth on the Pels.

There were literally multiple threads here and elsewhere about how “LeBron would turn AD into Bosh/Love.”

Of course, never mind the fact that Love the way he was used created two all time great offenses.

Hah I rest my case. Bosh and Love sacrificed. Both those guys played lots with the ball as a creator from the elbow / pinch post prior to joining Lebron. AD did some of that too but he's always been most effective as a screener/roller who plays above the rim. Anyone who watched AD and Rondo In NO knew Bron/Davis would be a terrific pairing, especially defensively where AD gives Lebron some cover given he frequently rests on the weaker assignment.

Cavs had good offenses because they not only had Lebron, Love, and Kyrie but shooters like JR, Korver, Frye, RJ, etc. They were absolutely stacked. It had almost nothing to do with how they optimized Love or whatever.

so here is a nitpick, did lebron mínimize love impact or not?

first it is that lebron makes love a mere spot up shooter,

then it is about how stacked that team was with love and kyrie

it seems like it would have to be one way or the other

either lebron limits love to a floor spacer or lebron has a stacked team thanks to having kyrie and love.

love cannot simultaneously be the star that makes the cavs so stacked while we also fault lebron for making a star level player become a role player

cause if we take this notion thay lebron reduced love to a role player then that means prime lebron + kyrie (single all star teammate) + strong spacing by role players = all time offense

which would speak very highly of lebron if spacing and a single all star (and kobe was more than "just" an all star) is all he needs for all time level offense

[homecourtloss]

No one who knows anything about NBA was saying Lebron and AD would be a bad pairing. They're the perfect pairing. It's a big part of the reason why people got so mad when Bron convinced AD to go scorched Earth on the Pels.

There were literally multiple threads here and elsewhere about how “LeBron would turn AD into Bosh/Love.”

Of course, never mind the fact that Love the way he was used created two all time great offenses.

Hah I rest my case. Bosh and Love sacrificed. Both those guys played lots with the ball as a creator from the elbow / pinch post prior to joining Lebron. AD did some of that too but he's always been most effective as a screener/roller who plays above the rim. Anyone who watched AD and Rondo In NO knew Bron/Davis would be a terrific pairing, especially defensively where AD gives Lebron some cover given he frequently rests on the weaker assignment.

Cavs had good offenses because they not only had Lebron, Love, and Kyrie but shooters like JR, Korver, Frye, RJ, etc. They were absolutely stacked. It had almost nothing to do with how they optimized Love or whatever.

What are you talking about? His spacing provided lanes for driving. Love was awful finishing at the rim and post ups (again, go see NBA.com) in Cleveland and they minimized those opportunities and actually should have given him even fewer opportunities in the post (6th most post up possessions in 2016 playoffs, 7th most post up possessions in 2017 playoffs). All you’ve stuck with is the same narrative that doesn’t hold up to objective data. How does a player who’s top 7 in post up opportunities become a “spot up shooter”? Also, if they had given him 10-15 post ups or whatever it is that you want so that he’s not a “spot up shooter,” would that lead to two of the best post season offenses in NBA history? Because as he was used, that’s what the Cavs created.

“They were absolutely stacked.” If so, explain the following:

Cavs with LeBron on court and off court:

2015: +10.9 on, -5.8 off, +16.7 on-off
2016: +11.4 on, -4.7 off, +16.1 on-off
2017: +8.3 on, -8.8 off, +17.1 on-off

Playoffs:

2015: +4.3 ON, +.8 OFF, +3.5 ON-OFF
2016: +13.4 ON, -6.4 OFF, +20.0 ON-OFF
2017: +13.0 ON, -19.2 OFF, +32.2 ON-OFF

Oh, yes, incredibly stacked. So much so that they were a high lottery pick type of team without James on court (4-23 to be precise).

Lastly, here are the numbers for the James/Love pairings compared to others. Would giving him more ISOs or post ups or whatever you suggest that make him more than a “spot up shooter” make the Cavs even better? If not for the best team ever put together and bad injury luck, Cavs likely three peat and you would never here this narrative of “made him a spot up shooter.”

Jordan +Pippen, 1997: +11.5 in 656 minutes (BKREF numbers for before 2008j
Jordan + Pippen, 1998: +8.1 in 724 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2000: +4.1 in 794 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2001: +14.9 in 620 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2002: +8.1 in 697 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2003: +3.1 in 449 minutes
Kobe + Odom, 2009: +16.1 in 598 minutes
Kobe + Gasol, 2009: +10.2 in 831 minutes
LBJ + Wade, 2012: +13.5 in 799 minutes
LBJ + Wade, 2013: +.5 in 678 minutes
LBJ + Allen, 2013: +11.5 in 455 minutes
KD + Westbrook, 2014: +2.9 in 696 minutes
LBJ + Love, 2015: +15.9 in 99 minutes
LBJ + Tristan T., 2016: +16.9 in 547 minutes
LBJ + Love, 2016: +14.9 in 548 minutes
LBJ + Kyrie, 2016: +12.5 in 672 minutes
KD+ Westbrook, 2016: +10.1 in 592 minutes
LBJ + Kyrie, 2017: +12.7 in 593 minutes
LBJ + Love, 2017: +14.3 in 541 minutes (+22.3 before the finals)

[TheGOATRises007]

They'd win loads of titles.

I think Kobe/Lebron would get along fine.