Draft Thread Part 4

[gojoorange]

I am not that high on Mitchell's potential as an elite NBA defender. He's small and he lacks strength to battle in the post. Smart teams will absolutely target him in mismatches. He doesn't have the strength of Lowry to be able to battle bigger players down low. If you compare Mitchell to another good defender like Jaden Springer, I think Springer's size and strength will make him a better and more versatile defender in the NBA.

There is no questioning Davion's foot speed and reaction time but elite on ball defense is only a small part of what makes a good defensive guard. Strength is absolutely necessary to be an elite defender as a guard if you don't have length like Dejounte Murray or Lonzo Ball. Part of what makes players like FVV so effective is elite strength for his size, something Davion will have to add over the years.

[tecumseh18]

I have been watching Mitchell and Butler more in depth lately and I mean those two if they stayed together could be the next Dame and CJ. They compliment each other so well.

I can pretty much guarantee Dame and CJ are not going to be together much longer. Portland recognizes they need more size on the wings. At least bring Norm back to his natural position at the 2.

Let's learn from Portland's mist... oh wait, we made the same mistakes. Let's learn from our own mistakes.

[Raps in 4]

I would love another Lottery pick in this draft. Would you guys trade Siakam for Wiggins and their 2 lotto picks especially if the minny pick conveys? I think the warriors would say no, but it's intriguing.
Draft a combo of Bouknight, Barnes, Giddey, mitchell and wagner.

I would.

[Dalek]

I have been watching Mitchell and Butler more in depth lately and I mean those two if they stayed together could be the next Dame and CJ. They compliment each other so well.

I can pretty much guarantee Dame and CJ are not going to be together much longer. Portland recognizes they need more size on the wings. At least bring Norm back to his natural position at the 2.

Let's learn from Portland's mist... oh wait, we made the same mistakes. Let's learn from our own mistakes.

Maybe it is a size thing, but watching Lillard and CJ, those dudes never played defense. They didn't put elite defense around them either, even going smaller with Norm. I want to say that Mitchell and Butler would defend better and be balanced.

In the playoffs this year we have the following backcourts:

Chris Paul/Devin Booker

Mike Conley Jr./Donovon Mitchell

Both of those teams are elite eve if they have smallish backcourts. We have elite defensive roleplayers that can help any small backcourt. I'd love to get a true rim protector this offseason (Nerlens Noel or Richaun Holmes).

[raptor jesus]

Seems like a lot of Mitchell at 7 people are forgetting how most of the board, probably themselves included, bashed Fred all season for being to high up the pecking order and forcing to much. Now you want to draft a guy with similar size, strengths and weaknesses to be a "Lowry replacement" when we already have his replacement in Fred.

Using 7 in a stacked draft to simply replace Lowry doesn't make us any better than last season immediately and it caps our potential close to the same place it was last year going forward.

Unless Masai and the staff think Mitchell is really something special (closer to Dame with elite defense) then he's just not the pick at 7 or higher. I know not every big wing excels just because of height, but getting a bigger guard/wing who can create his own offense more efficiently than what we are seeing from Fred and Pascal (or at least relieve some pressure) is what everyone around here has been clamoring for since we lost Kawhi. Now we have a chance to find something like that and you want to play it safe and just draft Mitchell?

Mitchell is a good prospect and will probably have a long NBA career, I can see why people are so excited about him, but when you ask yourself what you really want out of this draft in the top 10 for the Raptors, is the answer another 6'0ish Fred/Lowry type?

You mean championship calibre starters? Sign me up. That's a pretty good return in the top 10 - top 10s are littered with scrubs almost every draft. (I know ppl want to find a championship calibre #1 option, and of course that's ideal, but those guys don't grow on trees, especially mid-lotto).

[Dalek]

I would love another Lottery pick in this draft. Would you guys trade Siakam for Wiggins and their 2 lotto picks especially if the minny pick conveys? I think the warriors would say no, but it's intriguing.
Draft a combo of Bouknight, Barnes, Giddey, mitchell and wagner.

I would.

That is my favorite trade I have been quietly pushing for. I love Pascal but he may want a change of scenery at this point. He's had a few tough moments with Nurse and fans have been pretty rough on him the past year.

Wiggins finally has figured things out on court and is now mature enough to even commit to playing in Canada. It might be time to bring him home.

The Minny pick is the only way I would do the deal. Getting two top ten picks plus a strong swingman in Wiggins is a good new start.

[billy_hoyle]

Seems like a lot of Mitchell at 7 people are forgetting how most of the board, probably themselves included, bashed Fred all season for being to high up the pecking order and forcing to much. Now you want to draft a guy with similar size, strengths and weaknesses to be a "Lowry replacement" when we already have his replacement in Fred.

Using 7 in a stacked draft to simply replace Lowry doesn't make us any better than last season immediately and it caps our potential close to the same place it was last year going forward.

Unless Masai and the staff think Mitchell is really something special (closer to Dame with elite defense) then he's just not the pick at 7 or higher. I know not every big wing excels just because of height, but getting a bigger guard/wing who can create his own offense more efficiently than what we are seeing from Fred and Pascal (or at least relieve some pressure) is what everyone around here has been clamoring for since we lost Kawhi. Now we have a chance to find something like that and you want to play it safe and just draft Mitchell?

Mitchell is a good prospect and will probably have a long NBA career, I can see why people are so excited about him, but when you ask yourself what you really want out of this draft in the top 10 for the Raptors, is the answer another 6'0ish Fred/Lowry type?

If the question is... Do I want a 23 year old Lowry on his rookie contract at 7?

I honestly don't know how you say no to that. Lowry is a future HOF. The 2nd/3rd best player on a chip team, and the best player on a 50+ win team during his prime.

If you are sure of that outcome...you take him. Right?

Raptors fans have been so spoiled by the fact we had the GROAT for the last ~decade.

The real question is:

If you are 90% sure Davion is Kyle 2.0, with a 5% chance he's Marcus Smart, and a 5% chance he's Pat Beverly. (HIGH FLOOR)

Is that better than a 5% chance that Bouknight is Kobe 2.0, 10% he's Booker 2.0, 40% he's Gerald Henderson and 45% he's Keyon Dooling? (High Ceiling)

And do that with all the available prospects at that pick.

I don't think Mitchell needs to be Dame 2.0 for the high floor to start making sense, especially when the floor is Smart/Lowry.

[Indeed]

Seems like a lot of Mitchell at 7 people are forgetting how most of the board, probably themselves included, bashed Fred all season for being to high up the pecking order and forcing to much. Now you want to draft a guy with similar size, strengths and weaknesses to be a "Lowry replacement" when we already have his replacement in Fred.

Using 7 in a stacked draft to simply replace Lowry doesn't make us any better than last season immediately and it caps our potential close to the same place it was last year going forward.

Unless Masai and the staff think Mitchell is really something special (closer to Dame with elite defense) then he's just not the pick at 7 or higher. I know not every big wing excels just because of height, but getting a bigger guard/wing who can create his own offense more efficiently than what we are seeing from Fred and Pascal (or at least relieve some pressure) is what everyone around here has been clamoring for since we lost Kawhi. Now we have a chance to find something like that and you want to play it safe and just draft Mitchell?

Mitchell is a good prospect and will probably have a long NBA career, I can see why people are so excited about him, but when you ask yourself what you really want out of this draft in the top 10 for the Raptors, is the answer another 6'0ish Fred/Lowry type?

If the question is... Do I want a 23 year old Lowry on his rookie contract at 7?

I honestly don't know how you say no to that. Lowry is a future HOF. The 2nd/3rd best player on a chip team, and the best player on a 50+ win team during his prime.

If you are sure of that outcome...you take him. Right?

Raptors fans have been so spoiled by the fact we had the GROAT for the last ~decade.

The real question is:

If you are 90% sure Davion is Kyle 2.0, with a 5% chance he's Marcus Smart, and a 5% chance he's Pat Beverly. (HIGH FLOOR)

Is that better than a 5% chance that Bouknight is Kobe 2.0, 10% he's Booker 2.0, 40% he's Gerald Henderson and 45% he's Keyon Dooling? (High Ceiling)

And do that with all the available prospects at that pick.

I don't think Mitchell needs to be Dame 2.0 for the high floor to start making sense, especially when the floor is Smart/Lowry.

I think we are expecting a bit too much out of Davion, and compare him to all-star players.

I think the reason we take him at 8th or 9th (45% we will drop?), most likely because other players at that range will not be better than him. For example, Moody who is projected to be a good defender with some offensive skill, which I am unsure he will be much better than Davion on both end, so why not take someone who can also contribute now?

[OAKLEY_2]

It's almost bizarre to me how defensive Mitchell advocates are lol

If you point out any flaws they're in a ridiculous amount of denial (ie/ height, inconsistent shooting percentages, lack of midrange etc).

Ie/ if someone says Barnes lacks half court offense, Bouknight isn't a great 3pt shooter, Mann isn't a good defender, Zairie was unimpressive) -- no one bats an eye and can accept their short comings.

Say something about Deity Mitchell (most actually say they want him just later in the draft) n his homer's are all over you in flat out denial lol you swear he was a generational talent with no flaws.

Slow down. That is just over the top reverse deity crap yourself. First to admit there are probably at least 4 equally worthy selections at 7 including Mitchell. But at least am willing to put Mitchell in there whereas the age-size crowd are the ones getting hyper.

[Grew]

Seems like a lot of Mitchell at 7 people are forgetting how most of the board, probably themselves included, bashed Fred all season for being to high up the pecking order and forcing to much. Now you want to draft a guy with similar size, strengths and weaknesses to be a "Lowry replacement" when we already have his replacement in Fred.

Using 7 in a stacked draft to simply replace Lowry doesn't make us any better than last season immediately and it caps our potential close to the same place it was last year going forward.

Unless Masai and the staff think Mitchell is really something special (closer to Dame with elite defense) then he's just not the pick at 7 or higher. I know not every big wing excels just because of height, but getting a bigger guard/wing who can create his own offense more efficiently than what we are seeing from Fred and Pascal (or at least relieve some pressure) is what everyone around here has been clamoring for since we lost Kawhi. Now we have a chance to find something like that and you want to play it safe and just draft Mitchell?

Mitchell is a good prospect and will probably have a long NBA career, I can see why people are so excited about him, but when you ask yourself what you really want out of this draft in the top 10 for the Raptors, is the answer another 6'0ish Fred/Lowry type?

You mean championship calibre starters? Sign me up. That's a pretty good return in the top 10 - top 10s are littered with scrubs almost every draft. (I know ppl want to find a championship calibre #1 option, and of course that's ideal, but those guys don't grow on trees, especially mid-lotto).

We got Fred undrafted and Kyle was a 24 pick, so I have no doubt in Masai and company that they can find players like this in the late first and 2nd round. With a top 10 pick in a deep draft I'm looking for something a little more, and if we swing and miss, well it's okay because we can find guys like Flynn at 29 who have similar size and skillset to a guy like Mitchell(even if he turns out to be a much lesser player). Unless Mitchell has a special quality our staff sees that we as fans don't have the perspective to see, I think we should set the bar higher. We don't project to be picking this high again anytime soon unless things go wrong, and if that's the case, I'd still rather have the younger, bigger prospect with more perceived upside.

At the end of the day the reason those guys are champions is because of Kawhi. Not that they didn't have impact to winning the title, but we need that centerpiece. Even if we can't get a guy like that in this draft because he doesn't exist, and the guy we pick isn't really panning out. From an asset perspective the younger, bigger player is worth more to most teams in a trade. Unless Mitchell is more Dame/Curry than Fred/Kyle picking him at 7 is a bit of a reach as there will still be a couple handfuls of bigger and younger players that would be more attractive to a team with a disgruntled star in a trade a couple years down the line.

We don't do well in free agency. Now is the time to take the big swing for that centerpiece player IMO.

[billy_hoyle]

Seems like a lot of Mitchell at 7 people are forgetting how most of the board, probably themselves included, bashed Fred all season for being to high up the pecking order and forcing to much. Now you want to draft a guy with similar size, strengths and weaknesses to be a "Lowry replacement" when we already have his replacement in Fred.

Using 7 in a stacked draft to simply replace Lowry doesn't make us any better than last season immediately and it caps our potential close to the same place it was last year going forward.

Unless Masai and the staff think Mitchell is really something special (closer to Dame with elite defense) then he's just not the pick at 7 or higher. I know not every big wing excels just because of height, but getting a bigger guard/wing who can create his own offense more efficiently than what we are seeing from Fred and Pascal (or at least relieve some pressure) is what everyone around here has been clamoring for since we lost Kawhi. Now we have a chance to find something like that and you want to play it safe and just draft Mitchell?

Mitchell is a good prospect and will probably have a long NBA career, I can see why people are so excited about him, but when you ask yourself what you really want out of this draft in the top 10 for the Raptors, is the answer another 6'0ish Fred/Lowry type?

You mean championship calibre starters? Sign me up. That's a pretty good return in the top 10 - top 10s are littered with scrubs almost every draft. (I know ppl want to find a championship calibre #1 option, and of course that's ideal, but those guys don't grow on trees, especially mid-lotto).

We got Fred undrafted and Kyle was a 24 pick, so I have no doubt in Masai and company that they can find players like this in the late first and 2nd round. With a top 10 pick in a deep draft I'm looking for something a little more, and if we swing and miss, well it's okay because we can find guys like Flynn at 29 who have similar size and skillset to a guy like Mitchell(even if he turns out to be a much lesser player). Unless Mitchell has a special quality our staff sees that we as fans don't have the perspective to see, I think we should set the bar higher. We don't project to be picking this high again anytime soon unless things go wrong, and if that's the case, I'd still rather have the younger, bigger prospect with more perceived upside.

At the end of the day the reason those guys are champions is because of Kawhi. Not that they didn't have impact to winning the title, but we need that centerpiece. Even if we can't get a guy like that in this draft because he doesn't exist, and the guy we pick isn't really panning out. From an asset perspective the younger, bigger player is worth more to most teams in a trade. Unless Mitchell is more Dame/Curry than Fred/Kyle picking him at 7 is a bit of a reach as there will still be a couple handfuls of bigger and younger players that would be more attractive to a team with a disgruntled star in a trade a couple years down the line.

We don't do well in free agency. Now is the time to take the big swing for that centerpiece player IMO.

I'm not sure why you are comparing Kyle and FVV. Kyle is a much better player.

Does Dame impact winning b-ball as much as Lowry? I think you might be under rating Kyle here.

I read an article where they re-drafted the 2006 draft, and Lowry goes no.1. 20yrs out, you actually want the guy who had the best career, prime, and developed talent level.

It doesn't matter where he got selected. He should have gone number 1 in that draft. Just like how Siakam should have been a top 5 pick. Should teams not draft Scottie Barnes at 6 because Draymond went in the second round? That logic is very flawed IMO.

You should be learning from the past, not expecting other teams make the same static decisions.

[billy_hoyle]

I am not that high on Mitchell's potential as an elite NBA defender. He's small and he lacks strength to battle in the post. Smart teams will absolutely target him in mismatches. He doesn't have the strength of Lowry to be able to battle bigger players down low. If you compare Mitchell to another good defender like Jaden Springer, I think Springer's size and strength will make him a better and more versatile defender in the NBA.

There is no questioning Davion's foot speed and reaction time but elite on ball defense is only a small part of what makes a good defensive guard. Strength is absolutely necessary to be an elite defender as a guard if you don't have length like Dejounte Murray or Lonzo Ball. Part of what makes players like FVV so effective is elite strength for his size, something Davion will have to add over the years.

Davion looks really strong to me. How are you evaluating his strength?

Is there video of him getting backed down into the paint? I thought I've seen multiple videos of him pushing guys outside the paint? Am I wrong?

[Grew]

Seems like a lot of Mitchell at 7 people are forgetting how most of the board, probably themselves included, bashed Fred all season for being to high up the pecking order and forcing to much. Now you want to draft a guy with similar size, strengths and weaknesses to be a "Lowry replacement" when we already have his replacement in Fred.

Using 7 in a stacked draft to simply replace Lowry doesn't make us any better than last season immediately and it caps our potential close to the same place it was last year going forward.

Unless Masai and the staff think Mitchell is really something special (closer to Dame with elite defense) then he's just not the pick at 7 or higher. I know not every big wing excels just because of height, but getting a bigger guard/wing who can create his own offense more efficiently than what we are seeing from Fred and Pascal (or at least relieve some pressure) is what everyone around here has been clamoring for since we lost Kawhi. Now we have a chance to find something like that and you want to play it safe and just draft Mitchell?

Mitchell is a good prospect and will probably have a long NBA career, I can see why people are so excited about him, but when you ask yourself what you really want out of this draft in the top 10 for the Raptors, is the answer another 6'0ish Fred/Lowry type?

If the question is... Do I want a 23 year old Lowry on his rookie contract at 7?

I honestly don't know how you say no to that. Lowry is a future HOF. The 2nd/3rd best player on a chip team, and the best player on a 50+ win team during his prime.

If you are sure of that outcome...you take him. Right?

Raptors fans have been so spoiled by the fact we had the GROAT for the last ~decade.

The real question is:

If you are 90% sure Davion is Kyle 2.0, with a 5% chance he's Marcus Smart, and a 5% chance he's Pat Beverly. (HIGH FLOOR)

Is that better than a 5% chance that Bouknight is Kobe 2.0, 10% he's Booker 2.0, 40% he's Gerald Henderson and 45% he's Keyon Dooling? (High Ceiling)

And do that with all the available prospects at that pick.

I don't think Mitchell needs to be Dame 2.0 for the high floor to start making sense, especially when the floor is Smart/Lowry.

Your percentages are a bit wild but I get the point. For me I'm just comparing the type of player they feel like, more than actually thinking he WILL be Kyle. Kyle is a basketball genius, and an elite leader, so I don't expect Davion to be exactly Kyle. He's just kind of in that mold because of size and playstyle.

I think Moody is in the mold of Middleton/Kawhi

Tre Mann - Dame/Booker

Bouknight - Lavine

Scottie Barnes - Draymond/Giannis

Zaire - Paul George

and so on and so forth. Obviously not all these picks are going to be nearly as good as the players they sort of remind us of and there are a lot of guys who washed out of the league who fit those types of molds too.

No matter who we pick it will be a development process, and a guy we pick might thrive here when he would have fallen off somewhere else. I'm looking at these guys architypes because I have no way of knowing what is truly in the hearts and minds of these players or what their capacity for greatness really is.

If I had to pick these guys off the couch, I'm going with the guy who is younger and bigger because I can't get them easily. We all know how hard it is to find big shot creators, especially 2 way ones. It's a lot easier to find 6'0 23 year olds anywhere in any draft. That is why for me, I feel Mitchell would have to be special to warrant the pick in the top 10. He seems like a guy who has a high floor but at the end of the day his chances of being Pat Bev are the same as Bouknight's chances of being Keon Dooling, totally unknown.

[Indeed]

Worked out with the Cavs and auditioned with the Warriors. Wright is projected undraft at the moment.

Watch on YouTube

[Blood Orange]

Seems like a lot of Mitchell at 7 people are forgetting how most of the board, probably themselves included, bashed Fred all season for being to high up the pecking order and forcing to much. Now you want to draft a guy with similar size, strengths and weaknesses to be a "Lowry replacement" when we already have his replacement in Fred.

Using 7 in a stacked draft to simply replace Lowry doesn't make us any better than last season immediately and it caps our potential close to the same place it was last year going forward.

Unless Masai and the staff think Mitchell is really something special (closer to Dame with elite defense) then he's just not the pick at 7 or higher. I know not every big wing excels just because of height, but getting a bigger guard/wing who can create his own offense more efficiently than what we are seeing from Fred and Pascal (or at least relieve some pressure) is what everyone around here has been clamoring for since we lost Kawhi. Now we have a chance to find something like that and you want to play it safe and just draft Mitchell?

Mitchell is a good prospect and will probably have a long NBA career, I can see why people are so excited about him, but when you ask yourself what you really want out of this draft in the top 10 for the Raptors, is the answer another 6'0ish Fred/Lowry type?

If the question is... Do I want a 23 year old Lowry on his rookie contract at 7?

I honestly don't know how you say no to that. Lowry is a future HOF. The 2nd/3rd best player on a chip team, and the best player on a 50+ win team during his prime.

If you are sure of that outcome...you take him. Right?

Raptors fans have been so spoiled by the fact we had the GROAT for the last ~decade.

The real question is:

If you are 90% sure Davion is Kyle 2.0, with a 5% chance he's Marcus Smart, and a 5% chance he's Pat Beverly. (HIGH FLOOR)

Is that better than a 5% chance that Bouknight is Kobe 2.0, 10% he's Booker 2.0, 40% he's Gerald Henderson and 45% he's Keyon Dooling? (High Ceiling)

And do that with all the available prospects at that pick.

I don't think Mitchell needs to be Dame 2.0 for the high floor to start making sense, especially when the floor is Smart/Lowry.

Your percentages are a bit wild but I get the point. For me I'm just comparing the type of player they feel like, more than actually thinking he WILL be Kyle. Kyle is a basketball genius, and an elite leader, so I don't expect Davion to be exactly Kyle. He's just kind of in that mold because of size and playstyle.

I think Moody is in the mold of Middleton/Kawhi

Tre Mann - Dame/Booker

Bouknight - Lavine

Scottie Barnes - Draymond/Giannis

Zaire - Paul George

and so on and so forth. Obviously not all these picks are going to be nearly as good as the players they sort of remind us of and there are a lot of guys who washed out of the league who fit those types of molds too.

No matter who we pick it will be a development process, and a guy we pick might thrive here when he would have fallen off somewhere else. I'm looking at these guys architypes because I have no way of knowing what is truly in the hearts and minds of these players or what their capacity for greatness really is.

If I had to pick these guys off the couch, I'm going with the guy who is younger and bigger because I can't get them easily. We all know how hard it is to find big shot creators, especially 2 way ones. It's a lot easier to find 6'0 23 year olds anywhere in any draft. That is why for me, I feel Mitchell would have to be special to warrant the pick in the top 10. He seems like a guy who has a high floor but at the end of the day his chances of being Pat Bev are the same as Bouknight's chances of being Keon Dooling, totally unknown.

I bet 4 out of 5 of those guys don't reach their full potential/upside. Some of these comparisons are nice to imagine and all but realistically, most of these guys don't pan out to be that great. Some are likely to be out of the league in 4-6 years.

[Mark_83]

Watching Middleton with his quietly efficient game on both ends of the floor makes Moody a little more intriguing. They both play very controlled and deliberate on offense, are not very explosive but use their length and quickness on defense to be disruptive on the ball. I can see Moody having a similar growth curve given his makeup and tools.

Middleton 6'8 with a 6'10 wingspan
Moody 6'6 with a 7'0 wingspan

Middleton's Sophomore year (Middleton's Freshman stats weren't too good)
29.6min 14.3pts 5.2reb 2.8ast 1.2stl 0.1blk - 187 WS/40
45%fg 36%3pt 78.4%ft

Moody's Freshman year
33.8min 16.8pts 5.8reb 1.6ast 1st 0.7blk - 193 WS/40
42.7%fg 35.8%3pt 81.2%ft

[WuTang_OG]

Middleton stinks a d overpaid

[WuTang_OG]

Raps need suggs or green if they dont get #1

[mintsa]

Raps need suggs or green if they dont get #1

Agreed.

I just see Suggs in a raptors jersey.

[tdotrep2]

Watching Middleton with his quietly efficient game on both ends of the floor makes Moody a little more intriguing. They both play very controlled and deliberate on offense, are not very explosive but use their length and quickness on defense to be disruptive on the ball. I can see Moody having a similar growth curve given his makeup and tools.

Middleton 6'8 with a 6'10 wingspan
Moody 6'6 with a 7'0 wingspan

Middleton's Sophomore year (Middleton's Freshman stats weren't too good)
29.6min 14.3pts 5.2reb 2.8ast 1.2stl 0.1blk - 187 WS/40
45%fg 36%3pt 78.4%ft

Moody's Freshman year
33.8min 16.8pts 5.8reb 1.6ast 1st 0.7blk - 193 WS/40
42.7%fg 35.8%3pt 81.2%ft

i think we are underrating moodys potential a bit here, i think he could be a hell of a player