The Around The NBA Thread

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Giannis and Middleton are the classic case of the MVP vs. the MIP. Giannis is the team's MVP, of course. Without him they are first round losers. But he's not the Most Important Player for determining their wins, because ironically he is too good. He always delivers. Which means that the Bucks rise and fall with Middleton's performance.

This reminds me of the old Kobe v Shaq debates a bit. Kobe fans loved to point out in close games he was the closer and more important to the team. Shaq fans noted that there are no close games without him, and thus, Kobe wouldn't have had the opportunities to close out, because they'd be down by 10-20 point without Shaq.

To that point, I always sided with the Shaq logic fans. Middleton is only important because Giannis is there. So is he that important?

[Andi Obst]

The Kidd thing is just a disaster all around. He's shown nothing in Brooklyn or Milwaukee, the domestic violence thing is an incredibly bad look for a franchise that has just been dealing with serious allegations of sexual misconduct (among other things) and pretends that those days are gone now and the hiring proves, once again, that Cuban does whatever he wants and loves to hire his friends. The franchise clearly needed new voices and perspectives.

I hope Luka gets out go there as soon as he can.

[drosestruts]

The Kidd thing is just a disaster all around. He's shown nothing in Brooklyn or Milwaukee, the domestic violence thing is an incredibly bad look for a franchise that has just been dealing with serious allegations of sexual misconduct (among other things) and pretends that those days are gone now and the hiring proves, once again, that Cuban does whatever he wants and loves to hire his friends. The franchise clearly needed new voices and perspectives.

I hope Luka gets out go there as soon as he can.

Not disagreeing with anything here, it just reminds me that I so often feel that as Bulls fans we're all clearly most engaged with our own ownership and front office, but really, every team seems to have its warts and its issues.

People are very quick to label Reinsdorf the worst owner in the NBA, but I always caution people that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

[Am2626]

Watching this just goes to show how off we are spending assets on Vuc. In today's NBA you need a center that can play some serious Defense, including switches. Even a great rim protector like Gobert was neutered because of his lack of ability to defend the perimeter. Ayton is the perfect modern day center imo. His game is both old school and new school.

You can mitigate Vuc's issues in the playoffs so long as he's rebounding. He can score and rebound, that will keep him on the floor even if he's weak on D.
We definitely have to have Williams evolve as a defender and grab a PG that can take on his man.

Jokic was a terrible defender and he was MVP of the league this year. Vuc doesn’t have Jokic’s Offensive skills but he is still one of the best offensive bigs in the league. You just need a defensive minded 4 to complement Vuc. I think Theis did a great job last year.

[MrSparkle]

Giannis and Middleton are the classic case of the MVP vs. the MIP. Giannis is the team's MVP, of course. Without him they are first round losers. But he's not the Most Important Player for determining their wins, because ironically he is too good. He always delivers. Which means that the Bucks rise and fall with Middleton's performance.

This reminds me of the old Kobe v Shaq debates a bit. Kobe fans loved to point out in close games he was the closer and more important to the team. Shaq fans noted that there are no close games without him, and thus, Kobe wouldn't have had the opportunities to close out, because they'd be down by 10-20 point without Shaq.

To that point, I always sided with the Shaq logic fans. Middleton is only important because Giannis is there. So is he that important?

Well he certainly doesn’t suck.

Takes about 3 very good players of star or fringe-star caliber (and obviously a solid team) to make a finals run. I don’t think Giannis gets out the first round without Middleton. There’s just not enough scoring.

Would Giannis have been better off moving Middleton and spending that money elsewhere? Very, very risky. Upgrades aren’t guaranteed.

Really they made a massive mistake dumping Brogdon. Had they figured out a way to keep him and still add a guy like Jrue, they would’ve been set. Prioritizing Brook Lopez’s extension was a strange decision.

[MrSparkle]

Big jump for Ayton. High on him in the draft, became very low on him last year, but it seems CP3, winning and a 3rd year have made him an elite big man. The guy does have a David Robinson-esque frame with soft touch, so it was more puzzling than anything seeing him underachieve early on.

Still absurd that Luka has to watch Trae and Ayton contend. Total result of injury circumstance; he got beat by a healthy Kawhi (and Morris). I think he’s gonna come into next season with a vengeance.

[Am2626]

Giannis and Middleton are the classic case of the MVP vs. the MIP. Giannis is the team's MVP, of course. Without him they are first round losers. But he's not the Most Important Player for determining their wins, because ironically he is too good. He always delivers. Which means that the Bucks rise and fall with Middleton's performance.

This reminds me of the old Kobe v Shaq debates a bit. Kobe fans loved to point out in close games he was the closer and more important to the team. Shaq fans noted that there are no close games without him, and thus, Kobe wouldn't have had the opportunities to close out, because they'd be down by 10-20 point without Shaq.

To that point, I always sided with the Shaq logic fans. Middleton is only important because Giannis is there. So is he that important?

Well he certainly doesn’t suck.

Takes about 3 very good players of star or fringe-star caliber (and obviously a solid team) to make a finals run. I don’t think Giannis gets out the first round without Middleton. There’s just not enough scoring.

Would Giannis have been better off moving Middleton and spending that money elsewhere? Very, very risky. Upgrades aren’t guaranteed.

Really they made a massive mistake dumping Brogdon. Had they figured out a way to keep him and still add a guy like Jrue, they would’ve been set. Prioritizing Brook Lopez’s extension was a strange decision.

Even with all of this the Bucks are in the driver’s seat to make it to the NBA Finals. I don’t think they wil beat either team left in the West but you can’t complain if you make it that far in the playoffs.

[TheStig]

He had other issues as well:

constantly critiquing his players
failure to take any responsibility for underachieving and instead overtly blaming players
he runs a Boylen-system defense with aggressive blitzing of PnR's
Bud followed him at Milwaukee and immediately won 60 games with a great defense
Personal conduct issues (wife beating, DWI, intentionally spilling a drink in order to get a timeout)

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/why-hiring-jason-kidd-as-dallas-mavericks-coach-creates-more-questions-than-answers/

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/23/16921324/jason-kidd-fired-bucks-coach-reasons-why

The Bucks have not become some sort of success story. They've underachieved in the playoffs and Bud would have been fired if not for Harden and Kyrie injuries.

I do think the defense is too much all the time but it could work if he dialed it back and used occasionally only. It will depend on how much he's learned after his time with the Lakers. Can he improve? He went straight to HC with the nets and bucks. Now that he's had a year and gotten to be an assistant, I think improvement can be made.

Again, this wasn't my first choice. I think he'll do better this go around.

And the personal stuff is 20+ years old. The timeout was smart.

Bucks are substantially better with Bud than they were with Kidd.

He has a losing record over 4+ years as a HC.

He has had significant interpersonal problems over many years as a coach, a player and a spouse.

I'll agree with you that he would not be my first choice. Wouldn't be on my list, frankly. Should have gone with Jamaal Mosely, who they now will lose.

Coaches get better over spots. We haven't heard any of these complaints with the lakers.

[StunnerKO]

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[Dominator83]

Watching this just goes to show how off we are spending assets on Vuc. In today's NBA you need a center that can play some serious Defense, including switches. Even a great rim protector like Gobert was neutered because of his lack of ability to defend the perimeter. Ayton is the perfect modern day center imo. His game is both old school and new school.

You can mitigate Vuc's issues in the playoffs so long as he's rebounding. He can score and rebound, that will keep him on the floor even if he's weak on D.
We definitely have to have Williams evolve as a defender and grab a PG that can take on his man.

Jokic was a terrible defender and he was MVP of the league this year. Vuc doesn’t have Jokic’s Offensive skills but he is still one of the best offensive bigs in the league. You just need a defensive minded 4 to complement Vuc. I think Theis did a great job last year.

Yea but that's a big reason why Jokic teams are always a pretender not a contender

[MrFortune3]

Watching this just goes to show how off we are spending assets on Vuc. In today's NBA you need a center that can play some serious Defense, including switches. Even a great rim protector like Gobert was neutered because of his lack of ability to defend the perimeter. Ayton is the perfect modern day center imo. His game is both old school and new school.

You can mitigate Vuc's issues in the playoffs so long as he's rebounding. He can score and rebound, that will keep him on the floor even if he's weak on D.
We definitely have to have Williams evolve as a defender and grab a PG that can take on his man.

Jokic was a terrible defender and he was MVP of the league this year. Vuc doesn’t have Jokic’s Offensive skills but he is still one of the best offensive bigs in the league. You just need a defensive minded 4 to complement Vuc. I think Theis did a great job last year.

I'm not wholly concerned with Vuc's defense. AK just has to be smart about who you add to the lineup to complement Zach and Vuc.

[MrFortune3]

Watching this just goes to show how off we are spending assets on Vuc. In today's NBA you need a center that can play some serious Defense, including switches. Even a great rim protector like Gobert was neutered because of his lack of ability to defend the perimeter. Ayton is the perfect modern day center imo. His game is both old school and new school.

You can mitigate Vuc's issues in the playoffs so long as he's rebounding. He can score and rebound, that will keep him on the floor even if he's weak on D.
We definitely have to have Williams evolve as a defender and grab a PG that can take on his man.

Great point about Vuc - Gobert was only "neutered" by his complete lack of any skills whatsoever on the offensive end of the floor.

A team with a center who can't punish smaller players in the post will always be susceptible to their opponents going small-ball on them. It's easy to draw Gobert away from the basket with a small-ball lineup, because he can't do anything to make the other team pay when he has the ball.

The bigger issue for the Jazz was Conley getting hurt. Mitchell is not a play maker and he doesn't elevate his teammates. Conley's injury changed the entire dynamics of the series.

[MrFortune3]

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Ok, clearly Pip is on a revenge tour

[othawhitemeat]

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Ok, clearly Pip is on a revenge tour

Can't speak for Pip's opinion and if true/not. I will just say appreciate Pip as a player and appreciate Phil as a coach. However, take out this situation, Pippen seems to be too bitter about things that happened 25ish years ago. He was an all-time great, but he needs to let things go.

[jc23]

Pip seems as if he is not in a good place in his life right now.

[_txchilibowl_]

Pip seems as if he is not in a good place in his life right now.

This was my thought as well. The kid in me wants to defend Pippen to the end but the adult in me says something's wrong here....

[MisterRoy]

Pip seems as if he is not in a good place in his life right now.

Didn't one of his kids die recently? Maybe he is still greiving and it's coming out this way.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

[Michael Jackson]

Pip seems as if he is not in a good place in his life right now.

Didn't one of his kids die recently? Maybe he is still greiving and it's coming out this way.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

This ball started rolling before the passing of his son. Not saying that his sons death has no effect but this stuff pretty much fits Pippens persona. He is trying to make a brand of himself and sell his book. No one really pays attention to nice guys so his tactic should be fine in the long run and he will be able to sell his new Whiskey line too.

[MGB8]

Hoopsrumors has an article suggesting the Wolves are interested in Simmons and would be willing to build a package around DeAngelo Russell. That move would make a ton of sense to me. Russell and Simmons have near equivalent salaries, though Simmons likely has some additional value (even at this low point). So maybe the deal is Russell and Naz Reid or Jaden McDaniels (or maybe both, if Minnesota wants Simmons really badly) - two young players who have flashed.

For Minny, I think you put in Simmons as your 4 and secondary ball handler or part-time primary ball handler. Maybe you even still move Rubio (who has little trade value right now, though he's an expiring) for other players with Simmons in the fold --- looking for more of a combo guard at the 1 with Simmons, KAT, and I believe Edwards being willing and capable passers. Rubio to the Bulls for Sato and Aminu - flier on Rubio and saves the Bulls a couple million in cap, though not as much as waiving / stretching either - while Wolves bring in more shooting in Sato?

[Michael Jackson]

Hoopsrumors has an article suggesting the Wolves are interested in Simmons and would be willing to build a package around DeAngelo Russell. That move would make a ton of sense to me. Russell and Simmons have near equivalent salaries, though Simmons likely has some additional value (even at this low point). So maybe the deal is Russell and Naz Reid or Jaden McDaniels (or maybe both, if Minnesota wants Simmons really badly) - two young players who have flashed.

For Minny, I think you put in Simmons as your 4 and secondary ball handler or part-time primary ball handler. Maybe you even still move Rubio (who has little trade value right now, though he's an expiring) for other players with Simmons in the fold --- looking for more of a combo guard at the 1 with Simmons, KAT, and I believe Edwards being willing and capable passers. Rubio to the Bulls for Sato and Aminu - flier on Rubio and saves the Bulls a couple million in cap, though not as much as waiving / stretching either - while Wolves bring in more shooting in Sato?

It could work. I don't think Russell is enough though but who knows, no one is really high on Russell I don''t think. Rubio might net something better than Aminu and Sato but maybe not. He is low risk to any team, no long term money and you know what you are getting. That trade is great for the Bulls for sure...