2021 NBA Draft, Part 2

[NYPiston]

People get so angry when others' big boards don't perfectly align with the national media's consensus. Some of us aren't afraid to make our own projections rather than just making carbon copies of the popular prospect order with only minor edits. I don't have a personal vendetta against Cade. I just think he's the 6th best prospect instead of the 1st and has some serious red flags that make him clearly incapable of being a primary playmaker at the NBA level. It's not like I said he's not a 1st round talent or even outside of the top half of the lottery for that matter.

It's not like if you look at the previous drafts, you'll find that it pretty much matches up exactly with how the players turned out. Bagley was taken #2 overall and wouldn't end up in the lottery in a re-draft. Fultz was drafted 1st overall and wouldn't end up in the lottery either. What about Dragan Bender? Jabari Parker? Is Andrew Wiggins the best player from his class? Jokic was a 2nd round pick. Tatum, Mitchell, and Adebayo are the 3 best players from their draft, and they were picked 3rd, 13th, and 14th. Ayton is a very good player, but I wouldn't take him ahead of Doncic, Trae, or SGA going forward. It's still early but Wiseman wouldn't go in the top half of the lottery for me. So why does Cade HAVE to be number one on your board for it to be serious? You guys who think he's a Davis-level, clearly ahead of the pack prospect are going to be so disappointed. He's a fantastic shooter, but when his shot wasn't falling in college, he offered very little else. It's concerning how often he had to take high difficulty jump shots because he couldn't get a first step on his defender. His playmaking isn't as good as advertised (meaning good for a wing but not PG-level at all), and his handles (for a primary ballhandler), explosiveness, finishing, physicality, and defense leave much to be desired.

That goes for most of the top scorers in the league. Doncic, Tatum, Booker to name three right off the top of my head, CP3 is another one, Pierce to use a past example. Those guys all take a lot of tough shots and hit them and rarely just blow by guys. Cade is in that same vein. If you have size, the handle to create that little bit of separation on a step back or fadeaway to get the shot off and the shooting touch, there's not much defenders can do. There's been countless times in college where I saw Cade making tough shots and think, man that reminded me of Doncic or Tatum. There's lots of these guys around the league that are big time scorers that aren't supreme athletes and are tough shot makers.

The one area where I'd like to see Cade improve is finishing with contact near the rim but I think that will improve with age as he gets stronger. A lot of his weaknesses like that one and the sloppy at times handle are correctable. Things that are inborn like Size, basketball IQ, skill and mentality to want the ball and deliver in clutch moments like he has you either have or you don't.

Also, I don't think anybody is calling him a Davis level prospect or that he's a far better prospect than the next tier guys (Green and Mobley in particular) but he's a pretty high level 1st overall talent, not a Zion, Davis level guy but a notch below that I think is fair to say.
I also have no problem if somebody values Green's upside over him (Green's upside is tantalizing no doubt) but I just think some of his weaknesses are being overstated in this thread as if he can never improve on them or as if they've ever really held him back from being at the very top of his league at all levels. Somebody even said that he doesn't appear to care much. I mean, what? I don't know how somebody gets that impression from Cade. Mobley I could see a bit of that but not Cade.

[yoyoboy]

Doncic may not have a quick first step but he was able to create space and get to his spots far better than Cade. His craftiness, elite deceleration ability, handles, footwork, and physicality more than make up for it, which is why he's been able to finish 2nd in drives per game in the playoffs and regular season this year and 1st/2nd respectively last season. He''s also a much better passer and that in itself creates space because when the defense is more afraid to collapse, the driving lanes are more open. I think the Doncic comparison is incredibly lazy, and people just make it because they see a tall dude who plays the point, isn't explosive, and can shoot. You might as well compare Darius Garland to Steph Curry. They were both small PGs who could shoot, pass well, and were weak defensively.

CP3 was incredibly quick coming out of college, has GOAT-level handles, and GOAT-level passing/basketball IQ so I don't think this is the comparison you want to be using. Even at his old age, he's quicker than Cade is right now, and those other traits haven't left him.

Paul Pierce isn't a lead playmaker so I don't know why you brought him up. The entire case for Cade being the number one prospect in this draft rests on his ability to be a "point" at the next level, which is what so many people in here have been arguing he is. If he's just a great shooting 3 with good playmaking, that makes him a much less interesting prospect. Which is what I see him as, and why I have him as "only" 6th on my big board.

Tatum also isn't a lead playmaker, but he's definitely the closest comparison out of the guys you brought up.

Cade:
6'8 / 7'0 Wingspan / 0.86 AST/TO / 84.6% FT / 2.5% STL / .390 FTr / .388 3PAr / 4.0 Rim Shots/Game / 62.0% Rim FG

Tatum:
6'8 / 6'11 Wingspan / 0.82 AST/ TO / 84.9% FT / 2.3% STL / .381 FTr / .321 3PAr / 4.3 Rim Shots/Game / 62.7% Rim FG

Very similar across the board. They were also criticized for their handles, physicality, and burst. However, it's worth noting a few things. For one, Tatum has two important edges: age (Cade was 19.3 at the start of the year while Tatum was 18.8 at the same point) and ORB% (2.3% for Cade and 4.8% for Tatum). The age thing may seem silly, but you'd be surprised how much of a difference even half a year can make in terms of projecting development. And since Cade is truly a wing prospect and not a guard like so many people seem to think, that ORB rate is scary, because it usually identifies the guys who can best handle NBA size, athleticism, and physicality inside. Moreover, while Tatum has ended up the best player in his class, he was picked 3rd in a 2017 draft most saw as weaker than this one and wasn't really in the conversation for top 2, so it's strange that Cade is viewed as some consensus clear number one guy in his. Tatum also developed just about as well as anyone could have hoped, under a great coach in Stevens, and when we're projecting prospects we have to consider the probability of outcomes. I'd also say that Tatum demonstrated more quickness/shake off the dribble than Cade did and was significantly more explosive at the rim in the half court. He also showed more defensive promise. All in all, Cade is a slightly worse prospect than Tatum was, will be going to a Pistons team/under a head coach that isn't nearly as good as Boston offered, and can't be guaranteed to follow that same development.

[Big J]

it all subjective and speculation. push back goes both ways. long as it doesn't get personal state your opinion or perspective and keep it pushing we don't all have to agree the same way. Minority or Majority, just have some real insight to back your stance and we'll all be just fine.

The questions with Cade are well documented. I had the same questions about him coming into the season and watched closely to see if those questions got answered. There's still a part of me that holds a little judgement at the next level BUT i do think a lot goes into skill level with how the game is currently played. When we get to the less than stellar NBA athletes the convo should shift from "Potential over Know How" to "Know How with your Potential" Coming in I saw a kid with good IQ, good size, a sus jumper, shaky handle for the position, and very little blow-by ability. The opener for me which changed the look was the jumper. Cade seems to have found some 5 hour spots to carry with him next level. Seems to be aware of his limitations and put the time in to offset some of those. "Know How with your Potential"

I understand the concern about a less than stellar athlete at this level. You want those next level physical gifts obviously but some of our favorite bucket getters don't beat everyone off the bounce. There's actually not a ton of them if we're honest about it. The elite find their 5 hour spots on the floor and as long as they can get there they're cooking. don't need to shift the socks of every defender in the league, just need the space to get your look from your spot.

In the case of Cade Cunningham IMO. Once that handle tightens up he's gonna be just fine.

College ball can be veeery deceiving for skilled scorers with below average athleticism. Adam Morrison was one of thee most skilled college scorers to ever lace them up, and we saw what happened to him against superior athleticism. Dude was jacking up wild shots left & right just to get them off. Obviously Cade has playmaking ability that will help him on the next level that Adam didn't have, but he's never going to just be able to just take his man one on one and get a bucket. I could see switching defenses really hurting him.

[babyjax13]

Any word on Jared Butler?

[clyde21]

Any word on Jared Butler?

been waiting on it too, hopefully everything's good to go. one of my targets for the Dubs.

[NYPiston]

Doncic may not have a quick first step but he was able to create space and get to his spots far better than Cade. His craftiness, elite deceleration ability, handles, footwork, and physicality more than make up for it, which is why he's been able to finish 2nd in drives per game in the playoffs and regular season this year and 1st/2nd respectively last season. He''s also a much better passer and that in itself creates space because when the defense is more afraid to collapse, the driving lanes are more open. I think the Doncic comparison is incredibly lazy, and people just make it because they see a tall dude who plays the point, isn't explosive, and can shoot. You might as well compare Darius Garland to Steph Curry. They were both small PGs who could shoot, pass well, and were weak defensively.

CP3 was incredibly quick coming out of college, has GOAT-level handles, and GOAT-level passing/basketball IQ so I don't think this is the comparison you want to be using. Even at his old age, he's quicker than Cade is right now, and those other traits haven't left him.

Paul Pierce isn't a lead playmaker so I don't know why you brought him up. The entire case for Cade being the number one prospect in this draft rests on his ability to be a "point" at the next level, which is what so many people in here have been arguing he is. If he's just a great shooting 3 with good playmaking, that makes him a much less interesting prospect. Which is what I see him as, and why I have him as "only" 6th on my big board.

Tatum also isn't a lead playmaker, but he's definitely the closest comparison out of the guys you brought up.

Cade:
6'8 / 7'0 Wingspan / 0.86 AST/TO / 84.6% FT / 2.5% STL / .390 FTr / .388 3PAr / 4.0 Rim Shots/Game / 62.0% Rim FG

Tatum:
6'8 / 6'11 Wingspan / 0.82 AST/ TO / 84.9% FT / 2.3% STL / .381 FTr / .321 3PAr / 4.3 Rim Shots/Game / 62.7% Rim FG

Very similar across the board. They were also criticized for their handles, physicality, and burst. However, it's worth noting a few things. For one, Tatum has two important edges: age (Cade was 19.3 at the start of the year while Tatum was 18.8 at the same point) and ORB% (2.3% for Cade and 4.8% for Tatum). The age thing may seem silly, but you'd be surprised how much of a difference even half a year can make in terms of projecting development. And since Cade is truly a wing prospect and not a guard like so many people seem to think, that ORB rate is scary, because it usually identifies the guys who can best handle NBA size, athleticism, and physicality inside. Moreover, while Tatum has ended up the best player in his class, he was picked 3rd in a 2017 draft most saw as weaker than this one and wasn't really in the conversation for top 2, so it's strange that Cade is viewed as some consensus clear number one guy in his. Tatum also developed just about as well as anyone could have hoped, under a great coach in Stevens, and when we're projecting prospects we have to consider the probability of outcomes. I'd also say that Tatum demonstrated more quickness/shake off the dribble than Cade did and was significantly more explosive at the rim in the half court. He also showed more defensive promise. All in all, Cade is a slightly worse prospect than Tatum was, will be going to a Pistons team/under a head coach that isn't nearly as good as Boston offered, and can't be guaranteed to follow that same development.

I didn't bring up those names as direct comparables although I do see some Luka and Tatum in his game. I used them as examples of players that take, and make, a lot of difficult shots because they don't have that elite athleticism to blow by guys. In fact, a lot of the top scorers are tough shot makers. Being able to make difficult shots isn't necessarily a negative.

I also disagree that he's a wing, not a guard. I think he can play both at a high level which is one of his biggest selling points, his versatility being able to play multiple positions.

In any event, we both have our opinions and only time will tell the true story.

[K_chile22]

Can someone tell me what on a basketball court Kuminga does better than Barnes besides running and jumping??

[DCasey91]

Man I rate Butler but I think heart conditions more often then not is a non starter career ender.

Seen about 4 from memory play a year or two and that was that.

NBA quality though and an NBA game so it’s tragic in a sense.

Cade is a better shooter then Luka but that’s it.

Luka is naturally bigger, special special awareness and halfcourt manipulation and handles the ball like a 6”2” guard also he’s a better passer no doubt about it.

Rookie Luka’s backend was 21/7/6 stop it. Dude was and is a generational talent Cade is not.

Cade is a smaller Tatum less bouncy bigger Hayward same thing I’ll put house money on it.

My top ten all said and done:

1. Green
2. Suggs
3. Mobley/Cunningham
5. Kuminga
6. Bouknight
7. Christopher
8. Barnes
9. Mann
10. Moody

[Marcus]

Man I rate Butler but I think heart conditions more often then not is a non starter career ender.

Seen about 4 from memory play a year or two and that was that.

NBA quality though and an NBA game so it’s tragic in a sense.

Cade is a better shooter then Luka but that’s it.

Luka is naturally bigger, special special awareness and halfcourt manipulation and handles the ball like a 6”2” guard also he’s a better passer no doubt about it.

Rookie Luka’s backend was 21/7/6 stop it. Dude was and is a generational talent Cade is not.

Cade is a smaller Tatum less bouncy bigger Hayward same thing I’ll put house money on it.

My top ten all said and done:

1. Green
2. Suggs
3. Mobley/Cunningham
5. Kuminga
6. Bouknight
7. Christopher
8. Barnes
9. Mann
10. Moody

very under the radar

[DCasey91]

Man I rate Butler but I think heart conditions more often then not is a non starter career ender.

Seen about 4 from memory play a year or two and that was that.

NBA quality though and an NBA game so it’s tragic in a sense.

Cade is a better shooter then Luka but that’s it.

Luka is naturally bigger, special special awareness and halfcourt manipulation and handles the ball like a 6”2” guard also he’s a better passer no doubt about it.

Rookie Luka’s backend was 21/7/6 stop it. Dude was and is a generational talent Cade is not.

Cade is a smaller Tatum less bouncy bigger Hayward same thing I’ll put house money on it.

My top ten all said and done:

1. Green
2. Suggs
3. Mobley/Cunningham
5. Kuminga
6. Bouknight
7. Christopher
8. Barnes
9. Mann
10. Moody

very under the radar

Dude has all the tools, shot it fine in the last six games 40+ % 3 ball and his FT% is an indicator. Shot selection and game needs work. But can’t teach size, he’s a big unit at the guard spot. Loves being psychical and is a handful in transition.

First year playing there too after being an SF beforehand so wasn’t as accustomed to it.

Somehow he gives me more Mitchell vibes (low hanging crossover dribbles) then the Mitchell in this class does lol.

[The Moose]

Imo Tatum with superior playmaking potential is Cade’s best comp. There is doubt I have seen that he is 6’8, but he was apparently measured 6’7.5” in socks by Oklahoma State, so I think he’s an NBA 6’8 for sure.

Cade played as the lead playmaker/ point guard for Oklahoma State, whether or not you think he has the capabilities to do so at the next level does not change this fact. Tatum never even played point guard in high school, imo there is a huge gap in their potential playmaking ability. Cade is a far more natural facilitator than Tatum, and even Tatum has upped his average APG to 4+. Cade is also a superior shooting prospect particularly from 3, and especially from 3’s off the bounce where he was absolutely elite. Tatum is a superior finisher at the ring and inside though.

At the end of the day Tatum did not display Cades shotcreating and shotmaking potential from 3 in college, nor the potential playmaking ability, if he had he would have likely been the number 1 prospect (though Danny Ainge obviously felt he was).

I’ll be very interested to see how Casey uses Cade to start the season, whether or not he is given lead playmaking/ball handling responsibilities.

[DCasey91]

Imo Tatum with superior playmaking potential is Cade’s best comp. There is doubt I have seen that he is 6’8, but he was apparently measured 6’7.5” in socks by Oklahoma State, so I think he’s an NBA 6’8 for sure.

Cade played as the lead playmaker/ point guard for Oklahoma State, whether or not you think he has the capabilities to do so at the next level does not change this fact. Tatum never even played point guard in high school, imo there is a huge gap in their potential playmaking ability. Cade is a far more natural facilitator than Tatum, and even Tatum has upped his average APG to 4+. Cade is also a superior shooting prospect particularly from 3, and especially from 3’s off the bounce where he was absolutely elite. Tatum is a superior finisher at the ring and inside though.

At the end of the day Tatum did not display Cades shotcreating and shotmaking potential from 3 in college, nor the potential playmaking ability, if he had he would have likely been the number 1 prospect (though Danny Ainge obviously felt he was).

I’ll be very interested to see how Casey uses Cade to start the season, whether or not he is given lead playmaking/ball handling responsibilities.

Tatum was more polished on his scoring moves then Cade this year. PPG is not the indicator here. Barrett averaged more between the three, but Tatum really did have some high grade polish coming in his move set from something at that size was quality.

Your right if he flashed the playmaking ability like now instant number one no doubt about it.

Also there is a clear as day difference between size like it’s so clear to me Tatum is a fair size bigger then Cade is or ever will be.

Tatum is all of 6”9” I believe in his time of College and NBA he had a little height growth spurt in between which is unusual but not uncommon.

I’d rather see Green at the Pistons and not Cade they have 4 wings.

There isn’t a huge gap in playmaking ability.

I keep waiting for Cade to show it but didn’t regularly. The only thing that’s of class aspect is his shooting ability.

Rather see 6 3 ball attempts then being a primary option as the ballhandler. His handle is average.

That’s one reason the Luka comp makes zero sense to me among a list other things.

Smaller Tatum
or less bouncy bigger slower Hayward. But both had more established moves then Cade on the inside. Cades in - between game is lacking.

[The Moose]

Man I rate Butler but I think heart conditions more often then not is a non starter career ender.

Seen about 4 from memory play a year or two and that was that.

NBA quality though and an NBA game so it’s tragic in a sense.

Cade is a better shooter then Luka but that’s it.

Luka is naturally bigger, special special awareness and halfcourt manipulation and handles the ball like a 6”2” guard also he’s a better passer no doubt about it.

Rookie Luka’s backend was 21/7/6 stop it. Dude was and is a generational talent Cade is not.

Cade is a smaller Tatum less bouncy bigger Hayward same thing I’ll put house money on it.

My top ten all said and done:

1. Green
2. Suggs
3. Mobley/Cunningham
5. Kuminga
6. Bouknight
7. Christopher
8. Barnes
9. Mann
10. Moody

very under the radar

Dude has all the tools, shot it fine in the last six games 40+ % 3 ball and his FT% is an indicator. Shot selection and game needs work. But can’t teach size, he’s a big unit at the guard spot. Loves being psychical and is a handful in transition.

First year playing there too after being an SF beforehand so wasn’t as accustomed to it.

Somehow he gives me more Mitchell vibes (low hanging crossover dribbles) then the Mitchell in this class does lol.

Read on Twitter

he's definitely in my top 15 too, he'll be a steal

[DCasey91]

Yeah he was an SF before this year. I mean it’s as clear as day for me on Josh. Has all that you want out of a guard size prospect all the tools.

If he hits which is up to him he’ll hit as good as any in the draft.

I mean being thorough with the draft it’s not exactly that great. After 4 or 5 a lot of even stevens across the board.

I mean even at 5 you can make a case for a flawed prospect.

I have him in my top 11 favs so everything agreed by my end.

[DCasey91]

If I’m being honest part of what bothers me about Cade as the top pick is his demeanor. It doesn’t seem like he cares much about winning or losing. It feels like he’s just trying to make sure he looks cool out there.

Can’t believe i’m defending Cade here lol full circle not his biggest fan but man he did what he could.

He did very well this year win wise, unranked to ranked.

If Cade isn’t a top 3-4 player from this draft all said and done I’ll be very very shocked.

[Big J]

If I’m being honest part of what bothers me about Cade as the top pick is his demeanor. It doesn’t seem like he cares much about winning or losing. It feels like he’s just trying to make sure he looks cool out there.

Can’t believe i’m defending Cade here lol full circle not his biggest fan but man he did what he could.

He did very well this year win wise, unranked to ranked.

If Cade isn’t a top 3-4 player from this draft all said and done I’ll be very very shocked.

Well what people say about his floor is true. Obviously we all know he’s not going to be bad. I just see someone who ends up being a Brogdon level guy. Personally I think Greens floor is much higher because of the athleticism.

I actually already know what is going to happen with Green because we’ve seen it before. He’s incredibly exciting and charismatic and will come into the league dominating the stats, highlights & Twitter reactions. Every teams fan will wish they had him on their team. Happened with Vince, Blake, and Lamelo last year. Cades personality is closer to Wiggins.

[DCasey91]

I wouldn’t go that far on Wiggins.

Cade has shown take over games late (which I’m content with not disappointed would just like to see it all game not sometimes. It’s the interior skillset that I’m not buying).

Wiggins was a below expectation in College. Cade has performed at a high level in basically every system he’s been in.

And yes I’m one of the biggest Green fans atm lol. But even he isn’t a sure thing. But if I was to pick a superstar from this class it’s him always.

It’s just that I don’t buy Cade as the consensus number one pick. I don’t see the upside in him (I have an inkling his body is well developed for someone his age, and it’s not like Luka’s where he was man sized without the added pounds in the later years.)

Finesse over bully for Cade when his finesse outside of shooting (class aspect that I buy with leadership tangibles that’s basically it) is no where near generational type special stuff.

Mobley and Green are comparable to me.

[MotownMadness]

Springer is my sleeper pick this year

[The Moose]

Springer is my sleeper pick this year

i would take him every day of the week over his team mate Johnson

[bon]

Can someone tell me what on a basketball court Kuminga does better than Barnes besides running and jumping??

Essentially zilch. They're both poor shot makers from the perimeter but people generally value Kuminga over Barnes because he at least attempted a wider variety of shots. So it depends how much stock you would put into that