Build a Franchise- Season 5 Discussion thread- Announcement on page 79

[DOT]

Melo looking at Basketball Reference RN:

[3toheadmelo]

The objective ranking is where the SIM has him and what I'm saying is last year's Sim ranking isn't far off from where Tatum is typically ranked. There's a fair amount of consensus on his range.

Butler got a bump after last season (Sim Ranking) but guys like Booker, Beal, and even Paul George might be ahead of him this year. In fact, for win shares. VORP, and PER Tatum wouldn't even be the highest ranked player on your own team based on this past season

Unlike Beal and Booker, Tatum is a pretty good defender. Booker and Beal are below average defenders. Pandemic P def aint better than Tatum. You know that too bro. I can lay down the stats too.

The objective ranking is where the SIM has him and what I'm saying is last year's Sim ranking isn't far off from where Tatum is typically ranked.

The SIM has him as one of the best players in the NBA which he is. So shouldn't he be getting the same respect in the star player rating? That is the only objective way. Going off LAST year makes no sense to me.

If we going off win shares, Deandre Ayton has the highest win shares in the whole league in the playoffs. That means I should be #5 off rip

Tatum has yet to put up a year that statistically approaches George's 2019 campaign in any way. This being the most recent season George was a #1. Most other years they're neck and neck. But I'm not out here whining about my ranking.

There's no objective measure to put him in that top tier of players you want him to be in. He's right where he should be.

2019 Paul George Playoffs: 28.6 PPG 3.6 APG 8.6 RPG on 43/33/81 splits. BPM: 3.2,
2021 Jayson Tatum Playoffs: 30.6 PPG 4.6 APG 5.8 RPG on 42/39/91 splits. BPM: 6.5




Looks to me 2019 Paul George can't hang with 2021 Tatum. Using the most recent season as a #1 excuse to disregard his horrible 2020 playoffs is not gonna work on me fam. not even gonna get into his current year stats cause tatum's is significantly better. 2019 was ONE year that he averaged more than 23 PPG in the regular while Tatum has already done that twice in his very young career.


You can't name 10 players who averaged more PPG than Tatum in the regular season and playoffs this year. So to act like I don't have an argument for a higher ranking is subjective. Is it not?

I'm not even "whining" by the way, I was just curious to know how these star rankings were compiled because it is obviously super subjective and you can make arguments for every player. I just didn't understand how bish said it was objective when it's clearlyy not.

[3toheadmelo]

Every list is compiled by people unless you go to a strictly stat based list. Which stat should we use if that is the case? Sim rankings are a year old when they come out...doing it based on sim rankings now for FA for the upcoming season puts it as two years old. How is that better than using a current "subjective" list? Every argument you have made for Tatum is subjective.

The sim rankings are compiled by people too btw...I'm pretty sure their is some subjectivity to them.

Every list is compiled by people unless you go to a strictly stat based list.

So you're admitting that your list is subjective then and not objective. That's all i needed to hear. Also what site are you using?

Oh for **** sake, it’s objective in that I had nothing to do with it. No input from me was given for the list. I figured most people understood that after three off seasons but maybe not?

Obviously any list or ranking will be subjective in that someone had to **** rank them unless you use a strictly stat based ranking. Please give me a top 50 list that wasn’t made by a person and that all 30 people will agree to as totally objective and I’ll use it.

As to the site I use, that will remain hidden. I will not let it influence people as to how they build their teams. In three offseasons this hasn’t been an issue. And now in year four one team seems to have a problem even while other GMs are saying it’s pretty accurate. I get you aren’t happy with it but it is what it is. Find me that completely objective list that has no human input to it and I’ll use it moving forward if everyone else agrees.

Well you already admitted that it was a subjective list. So there's nothing objective about it at all. You having any input on it doesn't really change anything. Also I wasn't the only other GM who said this was flawed. But ok. Lol

I don't see why you can't release the site? How is it going to influence people how to build their teams? You are saying that it is not really different than those other sites you listed so there's nothing to hide. I am a bit confused on how your site that has a similar ranking of players of multiple sites is going to influence GM's on how they build their teams but hoffa putting out spread sheets on every team and player is not going to influence anyone. I see a contradiction here.

[Capn'O]

Unlike Beal and Booker, Tatum is a pretty good defender. Booker and Beal are below average defenders. Pandemic P def aint better than Tatum. You know that too bro. I can lay down the stats too.


The SIM has him as one of the best players in the NBA which he is. So shouldn't he be getting the same respect in the star player rating? That is the only objective way. Going off LAST year makes no sense to me.

If we going off win shares, Deandre Ayton has the highest win shares in the whole league in the playoffs. That means I should be #5 off rip

Tatum has yet to put up a year that statistically approaches George's 2019 campaign in any way. This being the most recent season George was a #1. Most other years they're neck and neck. But I'm not out here whining about my ranking.

There's no objective measure to put him in that top tier of players you want him to be in. He's right where he should be.

2019 Paul George Playoffs: 28.6 PPG 3.6 APG 8.6 RPG on 43/33/81 splits. BPM: 3.2,
2021 Jayson Tatum Playoffs: 30.6 PPG 4.6 APG 5.8 RPG on 42/39/91 splits. BPM: 6.5


Looks to me 2019 Paul George can't hang with 2021 Tatum. Using the most recent season as a #1 excuse to disregard his horrible 2020 playoffs is not gonna work on me fam. not even gonna get into his current year stats cause tatum's is significantly better. 2019 was ONE year that he averaged more than 23 PPG in the regular while Tatum has already done that twice in his very young career.

You can't name 10 players who averaged more PPG than Tatum in the regular season and playoffs this year. So to act like I don't have an argument for a higher ranking is subjective. Is it not?

I'm not even "whining" by the way, I was just curious to know how these star rankings were compiled because it is obviously super subjective and you can make arguments for every player. I just didn't understand how bish said it was objective when it's clearlyy not.

5 game sample vs. awful defense while getting spanked by the Nets.

Here's an objective measure for you. Let's use RPM. It's as objective of a stat as there is, ranking by impact on the game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

Let's see. We have Paul George up there at #4. Then you have... Helloooooo, hellooooo... where's Tatum??? Helloooooooooo?????

Oh there he is, down around 40. Great ranking system. Let's put it to a vote.

[DOT]

Tatum has yet to put up a year that statistically approaches George's 2019 campaign in any way. This being the most recent season George was a #1. Most other years they're neck and neck. But I'm not out here whining about my ranking.

There's no objective measure to put him in that top tier of players you want him to be in. He's right where he should be.

2019 Paul George Playoffs: 28.6 PPG 3.6 APG 8.6 RPG on 43/33/81 splits. BPM: 3.2,
2021 Jayson Tatum Playoffs: 30.6 PPG 4.6 APG 5.8 RPG on 42/39/91 splits. BPM: 6.5


Looks to me 2019 Paul George can't hang with 2021 Tatum. Using the most recent season as a #1 excuse to disregard his horrible 2020 playoffs is not gonna work on me fam. not even gonna get into his current year stats cause tatum's is significantly better. 2019 was ONE year that he averaged more than 23 PPG in the regular while Tatum has already done that twice in his very young career.

You can't name 10 players who averaged more PPG than Tatum in the regular season and playoffs this year. So to act like I don't have an argument for a higher ranking is subjective. Is it not?

I'm not even "whining" by the way, I was just curious to know how these star rankings were compiled because it is obviously super subjective and you can make arguments for every player. I just didn't understand how bish said it was objective when it's clearlyy not.

5 game sample vs. awful defense while getting spanked by the Nets.

Here's an objective measure for you. Let's use RPM. It's as objective of a stat as there is, ranking by impact on the game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

Let's see. We have Paul George up there at #4. Then you have... Helloooooo, hellooooo... where's Tatum??? Helloooooooooo?????

Oh there he is, down around 40. Great ranking system. Let's put it to a vote.

I'm not picking a side in this, but RPM is notoriously bad

Like, nobody actually knows how it's calculated

It's definitely supposed to be as objective of a stat there is, but we can't say for sure.

[bishnykfan]

I spend way to much time on this site with this game...

[3toheadmelo]

Tatum has yet to put up a year that statistically approaches George's 2019 campaign in any way. This being the most recent season George was a #1. Most other years they're neck and neck. But I'm not out here whining about my ranking.

There's no objective measure to put him in that top tier of players you want him to be in. He's right where he should be.

2019 Paul George Playoffs: 28.6 PPG 3.6 APG 8.6 RPG on 43/33/81 splits. BPM: 3.2,
2021 Jayson Tatum Playoffs: 30.6 PPG 4.6 APG 5.8 RPG on 42/39/91 splits. BPM: 6.5


Looks to me 2019 Paul George can't hang with 2021 Tatum. Using the most recent season as a #1 excuse to disregard his horrible 2020 playoffs is not gonna work on me fam. not even gonna get into his current year stats cause tatum's is significantly better. 2019 was ONE year that he averaged more than 23 PPG in the regular while Tatum has already done that twice in his very young career.

You can't name 10 players who averaged more PPG than Tatum in the regular season and playoffs this year. So to act like I don't have an argument for a higher ranking is subjective. Is it not?

I'm not even "whining" by the way, I was just curious to know how these star rankings were compiled because it is obviously super subjective and you can make arguments for every player. I just didn't understand how bish said it was objective when it's clearlyy not.

5 game sample vs. awful defense while getting spanked by the Nets.

Here's an objective measure for you. Let's use RPM. It's as objective of a stat as there is, ranking by impact on the game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

Let's see. We have Paul George up there at #4. Then you have... Helloooooo, hellooooo... where's Tatum??? Helloooooooooo?????

Oh there he is, down around 40. Great ranking system. Let's put it to a vote.

You know you lost the argument when you're using a stat that has Lonzo as a top 10 player lmao

Tatum was destroying a healthy Nets team on his own. You know, the Nets who were the best team in the league by far when healthy. Meanwhile Paul George couldnt even get past a weak Portland team in 2019


in fact in 2019 Tatum was taking his ankles

Watch on YouTube

[Capn'O]

2019 Paul George Playoffs: 28.6 PPG 3.6 APG 8.6 RPG on 43/33/81 splits. BPM: 3.2,
2021 Jayson Tatum Playoffs: 30.6 PPG 4.6 APG 5.8 RPG on 42/39/91 splits. BPM: 6.5


Looks to me 2019 Paul George can't hang with 2021 Tatum. Using the most recent season as a #1 excuse to disregard his horrible 2020 playoffs is not gonna work on me fam. not even gonna get into his current year stats cause tatum's is significantly better. 2019 was ONE year that he averaged more than 23 PPG in the regular while Tatum has already done that twice in his very young career.

You can't name 10 players who averaged more PPG than Tatum in the regular season and playoffs this year. So to act like I don't have an argument for a higher ranking is subjective. Is it not?

I'm not even "whining" by the way, I was just curious to know how these star rankings were compiled because it is obviously super subjective and you can make arguments for every player. I just didn't understand how bish said it was objective when it's clearlyy not.

5 game sample vs. awful defense while getting spanked by the Nets.

Here's an objective measure for you. Let's use RPM. It's as objective of a stat as there is, ranking by impact on the game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

Let's see. We have Paul George up there at #4. Then you have... Helloooooo, hellooooo... where's Tatum??? Helloooooooooo?????

Oh there he is, down around 40. Great ranking system. Let's put it to a vote.

I'm not picking a side in this, but RPM is notoriously bad

Like, nobody actually knows how it's calculated

It's definitely supposed to be as objective of a stat there is, but we can't say for sure.

To be clear, I would absolutely not recommend that we use it.

[bringbackhoffa]

how about we agree that we let me decide the 'star' players, i assure you i will be completely subjective

[br7knicks]

Melo looking at Basketball Reference RN:

i'm pretty sure we already have a member on the forum who has a vast surplus of knowledge in regards to ALL players and their stats...including college...

[br7knicks]

I spend way to much time on this site with this game...

[Slicin N Dicin]

IMO, i figured you can argue Tatum and Butler can be rated equally if you wanted.

Obviously you guys have discussed stats and all that but to me it also boils down to whether you agree with these statements:


The Heat would not have gotten as far as they did the last 2-3 years if you replaced Butler with Tatum.

The Celtics would have gotten further than they did (or at the very least, do not get worse) in the last 2-3 years if you replaced Tatum with Butler.



I like both players, but I think both of those statements are true. I don't think Miami gets to the finals if you replace Jimmy with Jayson. Honestly if I were Boston (irl) I would trade a package centered around Jaylen Brown for Jimmy if they wanted to win a chip.

[Deeeez Knicks]

there should be an objective whining rank. melo moving up to the top on that one

[3toheadmelo]

IMO, i figured you can argue Tatum and Butler can be rated equally if you wanted.

Obviously you guys have discussed stats and all that but to me it also boils down to whether you agree with these statements:


The Heat would not have gotten as far as they did the last 2-3 years if you replaced Butler with Tatum.

The Celtics would have gotten further than they did (or at the very least, do not get worse) in the last 2-3 years if you replaced Tatum with Butler.



I like both players, but I think both of those statements are true. I don't think Miami gets to the finals if you replace Jimmy with Jayson. Honestly if I were Boston (irl) I would trade a package centered around Jaylen Brown for Jimmy if they wanted to win a chip.

But you talking about bubble Butler. Jimmy butler playing in front of a crowd this playoffs wasn't nearly the same player. he shot 29% from the field and averaged 14 points per game. that's why i don't see the argument. you guys are going based off LAST year when I am looking at this year. if we looking at this year playoffs, i don't really see a debate for Butler.

[Capn'O]

Tatum was destroying a healthy Nets team on his own.

Yet the Celtics couldn't even beat the lowly Cavs when their season was on the line to avoid that Nets team. Very low standards for a top 10 player playing alongside another all star and all defensive team regular. Very bad.

[3toheadmelo]

there should be an objective whining rank. melo moving up to the top on that one

you should be at the top of the kissing up to the higher authorities rank then.

[3toheadmelo]

Tatum was destroying a healthy Nets team on his own.

Yet the Celtics couldn't even beat the lowly Cavs when their season was on the line to avoid that Nets team. Very low standards for a top 10 player playing alongside another all star and all defensive team regular. Very bad.

tatum dropped 50 in the play ingame against curry to make it to the playoffs. meanwhile pandemic p..well he's just pandemic p and nothing else to say about that

[br7knicks]

IMO, i figured you can argue Tatum and Butler can be rated equally if you wanted.

Obviously you guys have discussed stats and all that but to me it also boils down to whether you agree with these statements:


The Heat would not have gotten as far as they did the last 2-3 years if you replaced Butler with Tatum.

The Celtics would have gotten further than they did (or at the very least, do not get worse) in the last 2-3 years if you replaced Tatum with Butler.



I like both players, but I think both of those statements are true. I don't think Miami gets to the finals if you replace Jimmy with Jayson. Honestly if I were Boston (irl) I would trade a package centered around Jaylen Brown for Jimmy if they wanted to win a chip.

You're right about the heat and Jimmy. Hell, they wouldn't have sniffed the PO without Jimmy. They just so happen to go up against the team that will likely win it all this year.

Jimmy took an entirely depleted and injured Heat team, last year, and almost won against LeBron and Co., Who were already slated to win it all regardless.


This year's Jimmy was better, statistically, during the regular season. But he took a giant dump in the PO.

Jimmy shouldn't be a 5 star guy, but should be a minimum 4 star, probably 4.5 on defense alone.

Tatum should also be a minimum 4 star guy, most likely 4.5 with 5 star potential

[Capn'O]

Tatum was destroying a healthy Nets team on his own.

Yet the Celtics couldn't even beat the lowly Cavs when their season was on the line to avoid that Nets team. Very low standards for a top 10 player playing alongside another all star and all defensive team regular. Very bad.

tatum dropped 50 in the play ingame against curry to make it to the playoffs.

meanwhile pandemic p... was already in the playoffs with home court like a boss

[Deeeez Knicks]

there should be an objective whining rank. melo moving up to the top on that one

you should be at the top of the kissing up to the higher authorities rank then.

The things i had to do to work my way up to be a mod.... but maybe if you were less of a complainer Tatum would move up a few spots.