In the Last 20 Years, Which Champion Would Lose to '21 Bucks?

[BlackThought]

Talent doesn't always win. Grit and physicality are equalizers, and the 2021 Bucks weren't afraid to get dirty, while the 2019 version was soft and somewhat frontrunners. And *adjustments*. Nurse's adjustments weren't rocket science; Bud just refused to respond to them out of philosophical adherence to his principles. He learned from that, and this year's version would've countered immediately.

Giannis hitting a 3 does nothing for him. What he did improve on from 2019 is post play and more reliance on midrange, making better decisions, and not running straight into the teeth of a defense. This made the wall essentially useless.

This is only your opinion and you are entitled to it. But like all theories it needs to be tested and it was not tested this year. You can defend your boys until the cows come home but the fact is we will never know these things just like how the Raptors wished they can take on those Lebron Cavs with Kawhi instead of DeRozan. The fact is that Giannis ran into the Raptors twice in the playoffs and Toronto tapped that ass twice in a row. Maybe we meet again in the future and hopefully the Raptors have reloaded but until then my opinion is that I think you need a reliable jump shot against solid interior defense.

The funny thing is Giannis knows this also. He always says he's working on his jumper, why do you think that is?

1. What relevance do you feel the 2016 Bucks under Kidd and raw third-year Giannis has to this discussion? That you advance this as a serious point weakens the entirety of your argument.

2. Any team can try the wall. And have. Until this year, because Giannis figured out how to dismantle it. So teams stopped using it. The 2021 Bucks would trounce the 2019 Raptors had they persisted in trotting out a defense the Bucks spent two years figuring out.

3. A reliable jump shot is not necessarily a 3 pointer, as you assert. Giannis has improved his midrange jumper and post moves. In 2019, he only had driving to the rim. This midrange/post game would've helped him against the 2019 Raptors.

Here are some stats to just backup my point.

Giannis in the regular season shot 33.3% from 16-24 ft. He didn't take that many of them, only 66 shots. Most of his shots are within 5 ft and he shot close to 80% from there. Btw, if we bring it a bit closer, from 8-16 feet Giannis shoots 36.8%, a tad better. If you look at how he shot from that range back in 19' season, from 16-24 ft he shot 40% and he took 80 of those shots. I'm sure he worked on his shot but it's debatable how much better it really is.

Compare that to someone like Joel Embiid who shot 51% from 16-24 feet which is surprisingly good. A guy like Jayson Tatum only shot slightly over 40%.

[th87]

This is only your opinion and you are entitled to it. But like all theories it needs to be tested and it was not tested this year. You can defend your boys until the cows come home but the fact is we will never know these things just like how the Raptors wished they can take on those Lebron Cavs with Kawhi instead of DeRozan. The fact is that Giannis ran into the Raptors twice in the playoffs and Toronto tapped that ass twice in a row. Maybe we meet again in the future and hopefully the Raptors have reloaded but until then my opinion is that I think you need a reliable jump shot against solid interior defense.

The funny thing is Giannis knows this also. He always says he's working on his jumper, why do you think that is?

1. What relevance do you feel the 2016 Bucks under Kidd and raw third-year Giannis has to this discussion? That you advance this as a serious point weakens the entirety of your argument.

2. Any team can try the wall. And have. Until this year, because Giannis figured out how to dismantle it. So teams stopped using it. The 2021 Bucks would trounce the 2019 Raptors had they persisted in trotting out a defense the Bucks spent two years figuring out.

3. A reliable jump shot is not necessarily a 3 pointer, as you assert. Giannis has improved his midrange jumper and post moves. In 2019, he only had driving to the rim. This midrange/post game would've helped him against the 2019 Raptors.

1. It's called getting the monkey off your back. Giannis are 0-2 against the Raptors with more or less the same core. Not exactly a huge point, just saying that he hasn't beaten the Raptors and for you to come out and just assume that he could do it now eventhough he hasn't really shown much evidence don't make much sense to me.

2. Which team and what wall are you talking about lol. Are you talking about Miami? Nets didn't have a wall and neither did the Hawks or Suns. Are you talking about the Orlando Magic lol?

3. Giannis hasn't proven that he can knock down a reliable jumper beyond 18-20 feet. I don't know if he has that in his arsenal or not and we will only know when some team in the playoffs push him to do it and he delivers. He didn't do this year because none of the teams had the personel to force him to do it.

1. The only players in common from 2016 and 2021 are Giannis (who was just figuring out basketball then) and Middleton (who had just come off a catastrophic hamstring injury and only played 20 something games, averaging like 14). So no, not "more or less the same core." 2016 Giannis versus 2021 Giannis is probably more of a difference between Derozan and Kawhi.

2. Miami used the wall in the bubble last year. Then they stopped this year, when they saw it was no longer effective.

3. Shaq didn't need a 20 footer. Giannis only needs to model his offense around Hakeem and Shaq.

[BlackThought]

1. What relevance do you feel the 2016 Bucks under Kidd and raw third-year Giannis has to this discussion? That you advance this as a serious point weakens the entirety of your argument.

2. Any team can try the wall. And have. Until this year, because Giannis figured out how to dismantle it. So teams stopped using it. The 2021 Bucks would trounce the 2019 Raptors had they persisted in trotting out a defense the Bucks spent two years figuring out.

3. A reliable jump shot is not necessarily a 3 pointer, as you assert. Giannis has improved his midrange jumper and post moves. In 2019, he only had driving to the rim. This midrange/post game would've helped him against the 2019 Raptors.

1. It's called getting the monkey off your back. Giannis are 0-2 against the Raptors with more or less the same core. Not exactly a huge point, just saying that he hasn't beaten the Raptors and for you to come out and just assume that he could do it now eventhough he hasn't really shown much evidence don't make much sense to me.

2. Which team and what wall are you talking about lol. Are you talking about Miami? Nets didn't have a wall and neither did the Hawks or Suns. Are you talking about the Orlando Magic lol?

3. Giannis hasn't proven that he can knock down a reliable jumper beyond 18-20 feet. I don't know if he has that in his arsenal or not and we will only know when some team in the playoffs push him to do it and he delivers. He didn't do this year because none of the teams had the personel to force him to do it.

1. The only players in common from 2016 and 2021 are Giannis (who was just figuring out basketball then) and Middleton (who had just come off a catastrophic hamstring injury and only played 20 something games, averaging like 14). So no, not "more or less the same core." 2016 Giannis versus 2021 Giannis is probably more of a difference between Derozan and Kawhi.

2. Miami used the wall in the bubble last year. Then they stopped this year, when they saw it was no longer effective.

3. Shaq didn't need a 20 footer. Giannis only needs to model his offense around Hakeem and Shaq.

lol, you know what, enjoy your championship. The truth will come out soon enough. I've made my point.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Never thought someone would compare MVP Giannis to Demar Derozan in an analogy to try to make an argument but anything is possible on RealGM

[dygaction]

Anybody who actually watched the games knows that Giannis couldn't do a damn thing vs. Kawhi after game 2 when Nurse changed up their defensive scheme. Jrue doesn't change anything, the Raptors match up very well there regardless and Brogdon was playing very well.

That's 24 yr old Giannis, and we are comparing 26 yr old Giannis who had b2b 40+ pts and another 50.
LeBron 2012 was totally different player compared to himself in 2011.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Anybody who actually watched the games knows that Giannis couldn't do a damn thing vs. Kawhi after game 2 when Nurse changed up their defensive scheme. Jrue doesn't change anything, the Raptors match up very well there regardless and Brogdon was playing very well.

That's 24 yr old Giannis, and we are comparing 26 yr old Giannis who had b2b 40+ pts and another 50.
LeBron 2012 was totally different player compared to himself in 2011.

Also playing against a team with one centre who happened to be in the playoffs for the first time in his career.

Don’t think the Raptors had that problem with the amount of size and length that was put in to stop Giannis. Didn’t even have OG who has statistically bene great when guarding Giannis

[dygaction]

Anybody who actually watched the games knows that Giannis couldn't do a damn thing vs. Kawhi after game 2 when Nurse changed up their defensive scheme. Jrue doesn't change anything, the Raptors match up very well there regardless and Brogdon was playing very well.

That's 24 yr old Giannis, and we are comparing 26 yr old Giannis who had b2b 40+ pts and another 50.
LeBron 2012 was totally different player compared to himself in 2011.

Also playing against a team with one centre who happened to be in the playoffs for the first time in his career.

Don’t think the Raptors had that problem with the amount of size and length that was put in to stop Giannis. Didn’t even have OG who has statistically bene great when guarding Giannis

That one first time center also largely cancelled out this season's MVP earlier, who is arguably the best offensive center ever.
You also need to stop Giannis playmaking, Middelton and Jrue are difficult to guard, also Portis has been balling. Portis/Tucker/Giannis this season can shut down Kawhi better than Raptors can do to Giannis.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

That's 24 yr old Giannis, and we are comparing 26 yr old Giannis who had b2b 40+ pts and another 50.
LeBron 2012 was totally different player compared to himself in 2011.

Also playing against a team with one centre who happened to be in the playoffs for the first time in his career.

Don’t think the Raptors had that problem with the amount of size and length that was put in to stop Giannis. Didn’t even have OG who has statistically bene great when guarding Giannis

That one first time center also largely cancelled out this season's MVP earlier, who is arguably the best offensive center ever.
You also need to stop Giannis playmaking, Middelton and Jrue are difficult to guard, also Portis has been balling. Portis/Tucker/Giannis this season can shut down Kawhi better than Raptors can do to Giannis.

Pretty sure Jokic didn’t get shutdown and they lost because Campazzo and Rivers were getting heavy rotation minutes. Gasol/Kawhi/Ibaka/Siakam/OG is leagues ahead of any combo the Suns could put on the floor let alone Lowry and Fred as 2 of the highest rated DBPM guys at the pg position. It’s not even close.

Also Kawhi is a superstar. No disrespect to Booker but there’s clear tiers here. Booker is closer to peak Derozan tier than to Kawhi .

[Lalouie]

'12,,,,'13,,,,'16,,,,'20

[LikeABosh]

2006 Heat, 2011 Mavs would be my best bet.

Maybe 2019 Raptors? I'd still lean Raptors but who knows

Enjoy your championship. 2011 Mavs would have destroyed these Bucks. This year the Bucks made it happen though. Congrats!

Yawn

[Ballerhogger]

Maybe the raptors but really I don’t think they beat anyone of those teams. Brook Lopez on shaq ?? Nope . Dirk and his squad 3 point shooters nope.

Maybe Raptors but maybe not? Seems odd to say maybe and then say you don't think so. Recent champions are always the easiest to remember and compare so I'm not surprised the Raptors keep coming up in the conversation since that's still fresh in people's minds although they'd probably be one of the last teams on this poll to lose to the Bucks imo. I find it interesting there's no option for 2020 Lakers though. I think they too would still beat the Bucks but the agenda is obvious and clear.

yea true for the record we spilt with them RS before the bubble as well

[Harry Garris]

IMO analytics based basketball is pretty boring. There were periods in the past where defense was more aggressive, offense was more varied, etc. That said, analytics based offense works.

I think if you were to just pull out some great teams from the past and plunk them down in the NBA today with no adjustments, they would struggle. The 04 Pistons for example won with defense frequently but only shot 34.4% from 3. Would their defense work against a team shooting 39% from 3? Would Ben Wallace having to guard Lopez around the 3p line break their defensive concept?

IMO, there is generally too many rose colored glasses regarding the NBA of the past. Today's game might not have some of the intrigue that it used to but its brutally efficient. Milwaukee's 117 offensive rating would blow anyone out of the water from 2004 when the #1 team had a 112 rating and the Pistons had a 102 (which would put them dead last in the NBA this year).

Agreed. I also think the impact of being able to play more physical defense on the perimeter against today's players would be a lot less than a lot of older fans assume. It's true that players can't hand check, but it's equally true that guys can come off of screens and catch and shoot with a hand in their face and still hit 35%+ of those shots and that level of shooting didn't exist in the 90s. It would probably help with the pull up 3 point shots somewhat, but even 20 years ago if you tried to hit a guy while he was catching and shooting that was a foul back then too.

[balla345]

lol the 06 heat had loaded vets and prime flash wade with shaq and alonzo mourning playing at the 5 and beat a stacked mavs team. yeah 21 bucks wouldve got swept by the nets if it wasnt for. injuries and beat a weak atlanta and suns team.

[ForeverTFC]

Someone give me the case against 19 raptors, I don't see it. With kawhi, gasol, siakim + lowry and van vleet helping we had the best Giannis defensive schemes of any team on this list.

If Bud would have adjusted like he had now with Giannis setting screens rolling to the hoop plus jrue instead of Bledsoe we ain’t losing that game 3 in overtime. Plus Giannis is also not fouling out in that game he is more under control now not picking up dumb charging fouls we sweep the raptors with this team.

Raptors would have locked the Bucks down. Problem Suns had was not having anyone outside possibly Bridges to throw on the wing to guard. Suns were great offensively, they lost on the defensive end. Raptors have Kawhi, Siakam, and Green on the wings guarding (assume OG injured to keep it fair for the sake of the argument) with Gasol in the paint. On the flipside, Holiday isn't big enough to guard Kawhi or Siakam so his impact would be lessened; I would say Brogdan serves a bigger advantage in a series against the 2019 Raps than Holiday does. Go down 1:1 and the Raptors have by far the better lineup.

9 times out of 10, the Raptors are winning this series. That's if you're being honest though.

[illuminati666]

Nobody??? Just how much the average NBA teams have improved disputes that. I think '03 Spurs, '04 Pistons, '06 Heat would all lose. They don't have an answer for Giannis and they are too weak offensively to just outscore the Bucks. I think the Raptors and Mavs teams both had the defensive personelle with a strong offensive attack to maybe give them an edge. The '07 Spurs I'm on the fence about.

[Slim Charlez]

Nobody??? Just how much the average NBA teams have improved disputes that. I think '03 Spurs, '04 Pistons, '06 Heat would all lose. They don't have an answer for Giannis and they are too weak offensively to just outscore the Bucks. I think the Raptors and Mavs teams both had the defensive personelle with a strong offensive attack to maybe give them an edge. The '07 Spurs I'm on the fence about.

The 04 Pistons and 07 Spurs would easily take care of the bucks.

The 04 Pistons are quickly becoming one of the most underrated teams of all time and are probably one of if not the best defensive team ever, they had long guys like Prince, inside stoppers like Ben Wallace and Sheed was a pretty complete defender as well. They could easily replicate what the 19 Raptors did to him.

The 07 Spurs had the big three all in their prime or close to it, Duncan was probably at his apex defensively.

The bucks would probably beat 03 Spurs and i'm on the fence with the 06 heat but they very well could.

[tihsad]

I waited a bit on this thread to see the options available, but at this point I'm leaning towards the unsexy choice of the 2003 Spurs. The 03' team was, IMO, the least of the Spurs championship teams led by an all time great run by Duncan at his 02/03 apex. The rest of that team, however, were either well past their prime (Admiral), prior to hitting their prime (Parker and Ginobili), or less then stellar role-players (Captain Jack and Bowen being the only notables of the lot). The teams they beat on way to a championship were less then stellar by normal account of the WC in the early 2000s with the exception of Dallas at a cursory glance (who were young and had yet to make a real dent in the playoffs), and the Lakers who were barren after their still formidable 1-2 punch. As far as matching up, yes, Giannis would have fits against TD and Robinson (in the limited minutes the latter played and Rose would be dead meat), but I'm inclined to think the rest of the Bucks offense would manage against the Spurs backcourt. TD, of course, would make Giannis earn every bit of his DPOY but I'm not sure that would be enough to compensate against a very offensively challenged Spurs' team. I wince at making this pick because of how good Duncan was that year, but of the teams offered I think that's the way to go.

[hege53190]

This thread is awesome. Btw- the 2021 Bucks would absolutely smoke any team pre 2010.

But since we are throwing out pure hypotheticals without needing anything to back it up. The 2021 Milwaukee Bucks would beat any other champion ever.

The 2017 Warriors ain’t got nothing on the 2021 Bucks.

[illuminati666]

Nobody??? Just how much the average NBA teams have improved disputes that. I think '03 Spurs, '04 Pistons, '06 Heat would all lose. They don't have an answer for Giannis and they are too weak offensively to just outscore the Bucks. I think the Raptors and Mavs teams both had the defensive personelle with a strong offensive attack to maybe give them an edge. The '07 Spurs I'm on the fence about.

The 04 Pistons and 07 Spurs would easily take care of the bucks.

The 04 Pistons are quickly becoming one of the most underrated teams of all time and are probably one of if not the best defensive team ever, they had long guys like Prince, inside stoppers like Ben Wallace and Sheed was a pretty complete defender as well. They could easily replicate what the 19 Raptors did to him.

The 07 Spurs had the big three all in their prime or close to it, Duncan was probably at his apex defensively.

The bucks would probably beat 03 Spurs and i'm on the fence with the 06 heat but they very well could.

The problem with the Pistons is moreso on the offensive end, and again its just an issue of how much the game has developed. The Bucks have enough offense despite the Pistons defense to outscore them because the Pistons just didn't have very many offensive weapons that could hold it down. Giannis and Middleton would do a great job on Rip and Sheed, Holiday on Billups I think that series would easily go Bucks.

'07 Spurs is an interesting discussion bc they were like a perfect team. Again my concern is with the offensive firepower. But it'd be a good series, I may still lean Bucks.

[Slim Charlez]

Nobody??? Just how much the average NBA teams have improved disputes that. I think '03 Spurs, '04 Pistons, '06 Heat would all lose. They don't have an answer for Giannis and they are too weak offensively to just outscore the Bucks. I think the Raptors and Mavs teams both had the defensive personelle with a strong offensive attack to maybe give them an edge. The '07 Spurs I'm on the fence about.

The 04 Pistons and 07 Spurs would easily take care of the bucks.

The 04 Pistons are quickly becoming one of the most underrated teams of all time and are probably one of if not the best defensive team ever, they had long guys like Prince, inside stoppers like Ben Wallace and Sheed was a pretty complete defender as well. They could easily replicate what the 19 Raptors did to him.

The 07 Spurs had the big three all in their prime or close to it, Duncan was probably at his apex defensively.

The bucks would probably beat 03 Spurs and i'm on the fence with the 06 heat but they very well could.

The problem with the Pistons is moreso on the offensive end, and again its just an issue of how much the game has developed. The Bucks have enough offense despite the Pistons defense to outscore them because the Pistons just didn't have very many offensive weapons that could hold it down. Giannis and Middleton would do a great job on Rip and Sheed, Holiday on Billups I think that series would easily go Bucks.

'07 Spurs is an interesting discussion bc they were like a perfect team. Again my concern is with the offensive firepower. But it'd be a good series, I may still lean Bucks.

I think the Pistons had offense, just the playing style of the era held them back a little, Billups could be a 15-20 PPG guy, same for Rip and Sheed, plus they had Okur off the bench who ended up averaging 15-18 ppg with Utah in a bigger role. It was just the style of play at the time, same for the 07 Spurs who had the big three who could get you 20 a night each, plus competent offensive players like Barry and Finley.