Possible reasons for the Lowry S&T hold up (Powell, WCS from DAL for Dragic)

douggood · Post #241 » by **douggood** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:02 pm

Mikistan wrote:
douggood wrote:
Mikistan wrote:Reported without half the deal being known or completed... Because some agents leak to woj doesn't mean its final. How many front offices and agents leak to woj to create pressure or change their market.

But go ahead a quote me again and repeat **** again

nothing is final right now; many teams and players have leverage and can balk/renegotiate up till the 6th; but in practicality its not going to happen.
the demar s&t will collapse; come aug6th the spurs ask for another 1st
the lonzo ball double s&t will collapse, because the pelicans have all the leverage, they can just match

Since you are a twitter expert let me know if the lonzo and demar transactions are being reported with delays like Lowry's...

No? Ok then why do you use them as strawman arguments?

Remember when Michael Jordan backed out of the Calderon for Tyson chandler trade? Oh ya no one ever dealt with the bobcats/Hornets ever again right

the miami heat/raptors part has been reported;
the raptors are further looking to be expanded into something else.

take at look at the tristan thompson, kris dunn, delon wright trade, the pieces have been reported in a trade and could have been official before the moratorium; but the teams are waiting on it to see if they can expand it.

same with westbrook trade, washington is looking to expand it and flip some of the players in a s&t to bkn for dinwidde.

have you heard anytihng about dinwidde? no cause he is going to wizards, just working out logistics of what bkn wants, and washington looking to stay under tax.

ruckus · Post #242 » by **ruckus** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:03 pm

This uncertainty sucks. It's kinda hard to get closure on the Lowry era until this thing gets worked out.

pharring · Post #243 » by **pharring** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:06 pm

Rapsfan07 wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:Miami could not sign Kyle outright for 30 million. NOP were offering 30x3 and Miami had to find a way to match it.

Correct. We should put that fallacy to bed right away.

Lowry could not have been signed outright by the Heat. The Heat would need to renounce all of their capholds (expirings and RFAs) in order to open up that space. Even then still, I don't think they had $30M.

So the Heat needed to do a S&T. Otherwise, Lowry would have likely chosen the Pels as they were the biggest other players in the market.

This was the big difference from the Bosh situation. With Bosh, the Heat had the room to take him in full if he was willing to accept a little less than max (which he was). That forced Toronto to play ball on a S&T in order to get ANYTHING back. With Kyle, if he wanted Miami, he was going to need our help. And since that help eff's with our cap, it costs Miami more this time than it did with Bosh.

I agree with other posters that this deal was DONE before the Dragic option was picked up. However, I also do believe that there may be a contingency built into the agreement if Toronto has to keep Dragic. Might be an extra asset like a future 2nd or KZ, but some form of extra compensation for having to keep a player we don't really want to keep (and who doesn't really want to be here either).

Mikistan · Post #244 » by **Mikistan** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:09 pm

douggood wrote:
Mikistan wrote:
douggood wrote:nothing is final right now; many teams and players have leverage and can balk/renegotiate up till the 6th; but in practicality its not going to happen.
the demar s&t will collapse; come aug6th the spurs ask for another 1st
the lonzo ball double s&t will collapse, because the pelicans have all the leverage, they can just match

Since you are a twitter expert let me know if the lonzo and demar transactions are being reported with delays like Lowry's...

No? Ok then why do you use them as strawman arguments?

Remember when Michael Jordan backed out of the Calderon for Tyson chandler trade? Oh ya no one ever dealt with the bobcats/Hornets ever again right

the miami heat/raptors part has been reported;
the raptors are further looking to be expanded into something else.

take at look at the tristan thompson, kris dunn, delon wright trade, the pieces have been reported in a trade and could have been official before the moratorium; but the teams are waiting on it to see if they can expand it.

same with westbrook trade, washington is looking to expand it and flip some of the players in a s&t to bkn for dinwidde.

have you heard anytihng about dinwidde? no cause he is going to wizards, just working out logistics of what bkn wants, and washington looking to stay under tax.

You were wrong in your understanding of the situation to start. Miami could not give Kyle 90 over 3 in a direct signing. Because of that everything after that you analyze is flawed.

rrdjutriurt · Post #245 » by **rrdjutriurt** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:10 pm

Powell 11M salary is painfull to absorb for what he brings.

douggood · Post #246 » by **douggood** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:15 pm

Mikistan wrote:
douggood wrote:
Mikistan wrote:Since you are a twitter expert let me know if the lonzo and demar transactions are being reported with delays like Lowry's...

No? Ok then why do you use them as strawman arguments?

Remember when Michael Jordan backed out of the Calderon for Tyson chandler trade? Oh ya no one ever dealt with the bobcats/Hornets ever again right

the miami heat/raptors part has been reported;
the raptors are further looking to be expanded into something else.

take at look at the tristan thompson, kris dunn, delon wright trade, the pieces have been reported in a trade and could have been official before the moratorium; but the teams are waiting on it to see if they can expand it.

same with westbrook trade, washington is looking to expand it and flip some of the players in a s&t to bkn for dinwidde.

have you heard anytihng about dinwidde? no cause he is going to wizards, just working out logistics of what bkn wants, and washington looking to stay under tax.

You were wrong in your understanding of the situation to start. Miami could not give Kyle 90 over 3 in a direct signing. Because of that everything after that you analyze is flawed.

they arent giving him $90 mil in sign and trade either, max is 87ish (dragic + achiuwa) x 125% = starting 1st year salary 27.68+100k = $27.78

and back of napkin math
$36(butler)+ 28.9(bam)+4(herro)+ 2.7(achiuwa)+1.8(kz)+ 5(dead cap)+ cap hold of 4.8(duncan which they could make 1.9), roster spot charges = $84.3 with cap of $112
apx $27.7 cap space, and if you dont believe me go look up kevin peltons math on this

Edit:
https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article252993418.html

Miami would have about $27 million in space if it instead chooses not to extend qualifying offers, allowing both to become unrestricted free agents and decreasing their cap holds to $1.7 million (but this move would only likely be made if Miami had a prearranged deal agreed upon to re-sign Nunn and/or Robinson after the Heat uses its cap space).

so they let nunn go, and make cap hold of robinson to 1.7 they would have had 28.7 mil cap room

$28.7 is more than he can get in proposed s&t $27.8

C Court · Post #247 » by **C Court** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:20 pm

I know Grange had Suggs as a lock to Toronto and we know what happened. But the longer this drags out, it looks like Dragic might be a Raptor for now.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Purple Fever · Post #248 » by **Purple Fever** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:23 pm

C Court wrote:I know Grange had Suggs as a lock to Toronto and we know what happened. But the longer this drags out, it looks like Dragic might be a Raptor for now.

Read on Twitter
?s=20

He has zero credibility. It’s not just the Suggs thing, he has been wrong on his past 10 “scoops”

It’s clear at this point he just guesses and hopes he ends up being right

C Court · Post #249 » by **C Court** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:23 pm

Read on Twitter

WuTang_CMB · Post #250 » by **WuTang_CMB** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:25 pm

ruckus wrote:This uncertainty sucks. It's kinda hard to get closure on the Lowry era until this thing gets worked out.

The delay only works to our favour.

Los_29 · Post #251 » by **Los_29** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:26 pm

C Court wrote:I know Grange had Suggs as a lock to Toronto and we know what happened. But the longer this drags out, it looks like Dragic might be a Raptor for now.

Read on Twitter
?s=20

I do think something will be worked out in the offseason but I wouldn't be opposed to Dragic starting the year in Toronto. There are lots of minutes available at the guard spots and Dragic seems like a nice piece that a contending team would love to have given his playoff performances in the past.

Skeezo · Post #252 » by **Skeezo** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:38 pm

Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taken on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

Mikistan · Post #253 » by **Mikistan** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:42 pm

Skeezo wrote:Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

And they keep dipo too as they didn't have to renounce him

douggood · Post #254 » by **douggood** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:46 pm

Skeezo wrote:Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

dragic was 0 dollars to heat, raptors were the ones who chose to make him into a 19 mil contract.

the argument shouldn't be is it enough for kyle lowry

but is it enough return to give miami flexibility

and vice versa is it better to have 17 mil cap space or dragic achiuwa and mle.

Pooh_Jeter · Post #255 » by **Pooh_Jeter** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:47 pm

Skeezo wrote:Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

100%

I imagine this is why Kyle was perfectly happy to stay with the Raptors last year and sit out. He maintained his value, got healthy and was able to get to his desired location for top dollar.

The question has to be asked was Toronto aware of this and were content to let it play out like this, or was it a total miscalculation from management? At the deadline you could have gotten a pick and prospect and not had any salary commitments going forward. If you knew Lowry's intentions and wanted to do right with him I can at least understand it (even if I don't agree with it), but if this was just incompetence in terms of getting the best assets back that is rough.

DangerZone13 · Post #256 » by **DangerZone13** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:50 pm

Youre making it even more complicated my dude. Precious is compensation for Lowry. Extra compensation if they need to hold Dragic has been worked out.

Gonna laugh when Oladipo signs with us for the MLE. Screws Miami out of some assets when they could have used him in the S&T

douggood · Post #257 » by **douggood** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:52 pm

DangerZone13 wrote:Youre making it even more complicated my dude. Precious is compensation for Lowry. Extra compensation if they need to hold Dragic has been worked out.

Gonna laugh when Oladipo signs with us for the MLE. Screws Miami out of some assets when they could have used him in the S&T

olidipo just reupped in miami.

Skeezo · Post #258 » by **Skeezo** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:56 pm

douggood wrote:
Skeezo wrote:Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

dragic was 0 dollars to heat, raptors were the ones who chose to make him into a 19 mil contract.

the argument shouldn't be is it enough for kyle lowry

but is it enough return to give miami flexibility

and vice versa is it better to have 17 mil cap space or dragic achiuwa and mle.

Dude, I really don't care what perspective you want to look at it from other than the result, which is thus far, it's been a CRAP deal on the part of the Raptors unless their are some considerable draft assets coming back from Miami still.

DangerZone13 · Post #259 » by **DangerZone13** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:57 pm

Youre making it even more complicated my dude. Precious is compensation for Lowry. Extra compensation if they need to hold Dragic has been worked out.

Gonna laugh when Oladipo signs with us for the MLE. Screws Miami out of some assets when they could have used him in the S&T

pharring · Post #260 » by **pharring** » Wed Aug 4, 2021 5:58 pm

Skeezo wrote:Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

I don't think we get compensation for Lowry. He's an UFA. He chooses where he goes and at what price.

We do have a role to play if (a) Lowry says he wants to go to a "capped" team and (b) we would like to get SOMETHING as opposed to nothing, but our compensation is for financial facilitation and is in no way related to Lowry's value as a player. The greater the financial facilitation, the greater the compensation. The only reason we are getting "real" assets like Dragic and Precious as opposed to a conditional 2nd round pick is because Miami needs some real financial facilitation help here... and Masai sees an opportunity to benefit from it. Good on him.