Wolves Tender Vando & Jmac

[minimus]

My issue with Vando is not his shooting, the problem is way more bigger he has hands of stone. I mean this is such a fundamental thing, that affects everything: he has no touch when he shoots FTs, he lacks accuracy when he passes the ball, he cant catch the ball or finish layup in traffic. And I cant see how he can improve here.

Hands/TO's thing sure....but I feel the whole hands of stone thing has gotten significantly overblown on here....opportunity to improve, sure...but imo much more about him &/or maybe more specifically the game in his head still needing to slow down some. He's still relatively young and for the last 3-4 years...not a ton of actual game minutes due to injuries, consequences, etc.

I'm probably in the minority, but I think there's a relatively low risk path to him still improving & very much be a strong bench piece...I got no problem going anywhere between 3 to 5 per...obviously for flexibility reasons the lower the better....but I still think he's an ascending player.

Robson: And when I think about you wanting to run a pass-oriented offense, that’s where Vando hurts you.

Finch: Yeah, a little bit for sure.

Robson: Because he doesn’t have the hands. And you can’t teach hands.

Finch: He doesn’t have the ball skills. But what he does have is he is a great cutter and he spaces off of KAT really well.

https://theathletic.com/2775315/2021/08/18/wolves-coach-chris-finch-qa-part-2-on-karl-anthony-towns-upside-and-motivation-minnesotas-dual-timelines/

Just to be clear: I want us to bring back Vando. His motor, toughness and hustle are very valuable for us. But I dont want another Juancho situation, just be careful, think about structure contract.

[UnFadeable21]

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[SO_MONEY]

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Let him walk, then.

Diallo I think is a bargain for his potential as a two-way high upside player. Vandy doesn't have the upside on both sides of the ball. The two players are honestly not comparable in the least.

[winforlose]

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Let him walk, then.

Diallo I think is a bargain for his potential as a two-way high upside player. Vandy doesn't have the upside on both sides of the ball. The two players are honestly not comparable in the least.

This plus V8 has enough downside with his hands of stone that I doubt other teams make significant offers on him. We have the leverage and if V8 takes the QO and gets hurt he gets nothing. I see no reason to overpay.

[jpatrick]

Vando is a minimum player. Nothing but a hustle guy off the bench. Our problem, right now he’s out starting PF. Ugh.

[Dewey]

Vando is a minimum player. Nothing but a hustle guy off the bench. Our problem, right now he’s out starting PF. Ugh.

Ya … at least have a team option for year 2

[NebWolvesFan]

Vando is a minimum player. Nothing but a hustle guy off the bench. Our problem, right now he’s out starting PF. Ugh.

Vando is a former McDonald's All-American who got drafted on his talent alone because of injuries in college. He has insanely good defensive numbers and is the only Wolves big to put up solid two-man numbers with KAT. If he can learn to hit a corner 3, he will be making 15 million a year when his next contract comes up. I'm telling you Minnesota's best chance of winning games next year is with McDaniels and Vando as starting forwards. I think Finch gets that. Hopefully, Rosas does, too.

[shangrila]

I'd give him 2yr/8mil with a team option/non-guaranteed 2nd year, assuming he's willing to accept that.

It doesn't look like we're spending the money on anything else and I do think he's got significant defensive upside but there hasn't been enough shown offensively to justify more. If he does want more years then the money stays the same you just stretch it (so, 3/9, 4/8ish, that kind of thing).

[Klomp]

Yeah I think 4 million would be my max. For various reasons, he's only played 92 games through his first three seasons. Ultimately, I think he may be someone who signs his qualifying offer. It's less than half AAV of what he might be able to get on a two-year deal, but essentially he'd be betting on himself that he can maximize his value on the court and turn it into an even bigger contract. We may be hoping for that as well, possibly to include in trade at the deadline. While any team that might acquire would be getting a UFA, it's an audition and a chance at upside if he likes his new situation.

[gandlogo]

My recollection is that he was better on offense with Ricky on the floor. I'm worried that his very limited offensive game will be even worse with Rubio gone. I didn't put any effort into actually looking into the stats, however. Hustle guys - like Vando and Okogie - are always easier to cheer for, but hopefully the Wolves don't overpay just for that.

[minimus]

Given how our roster is structured I'd assume that we either go for big name like Siakam, Simmons to address PF position. Our main assets are Beasley, Prince and Beverly, young players on cheap contracts are MCD, Nowell and Reid, salary fillers Layman and Okogie. I wish we could get guys like Aminu, Kyle Anderson, Thad Young who are experienced, hard working guys with defensive mindset. The more I watch Vando videos, the more I believe that we need a veteran to play alongside Towns, who can help Vando some basic ball skills. Let me explain. At the moment Vando is pure energy and hustle, like he can jump twice where opponent PF can only jump once. This help Vando to compensate some his bonehead mistakes. For instance, he can bite on fake shot attempt loses position, but still is able to recover at some degree and make shot difficult. There are two problems with this:
* - Vando can lose control, for instance commit stupid fouls after his mistake. He needs to learn how to be more efficient, more consistent
* - in clutch situation our team expect from Vando one winning play, not multiple effort game. For instance, hit both FTs

To sum up. I am okay if we re-sign Vando, but to build a successful season with Vando as main option at PF, we MUST sign a veteran PF who can give us 10-15 minutes of mistake-free defense/offense. Ideal, unrealistic scenario is Paul Millsap, who played with Vando in DEN. But as well as I understand we cannot afford giving him more than vetmin. So in reality Vando contract should be viewed as his contract + vetmin. I also understand we MUST find guys on cheap contract, because moving forward it is possible that we have 3 guys on max contracts and no room for bench players.

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P.S. I also feel bad for McLaughlin, he is a NBA player in my opinion, he also might get significant playing time even behind DLo and Beverly, because DLo is essentially a comboguard, who can play alongside McLaughlin, and Beverly because of his aggressive physical style of defense is always a injury-risk. However, there are not many options for him, other than minimum deal.
P.P.S. I really wish we get last year 2nd round pick bigmen such as Paul Reed or Xavier Tillman, these guys are tough, smart, hardworking. Clearly they are out of reach, but lets say a deal Nowell, two 2nd round pick for Paul Reed.

KAT/Reid + Knight
Reed/Vando/MCD
MCD/Prince/Layman
Edwards/Beasley/Bolmaro
DLo/Beverly/JMac + Wright

[TaylorTag]

Given how our roster is structured I'd assume that we either go for big name like Siakam, Simmons to address PF position. Our main assets are Beasley, Prince and Beverly, young players on cheap contracts are MCD, Nowell and Reid, salary fillers Layman and Okogie. I wish we could get guys like Aminu, Kyle Anderson, Thad Young who are experienced, hard working guys with defensive mindset. The more I watch Vando videos, the more I believe that we need a veteran to play alongside Towns, who can help Vando some basic ball skills. Let me explain. At the moment Vando is pure energy and hustle, like he can jump twice where opponent PF can only jump once. This help Vando to compensate some his bonehead mistakes. For instance, he can bite on fake shot attempt loses position, but still is able to recover at some degree and make shot difficult. There are two problems with this:
* - Vando can lose control, for instance commit stupid fouls after his mistake. He needs to learn how to be more efficient, more consistent
* - in clutch situation our team expect from Vando one winning play, not multiple effort game. For instance, hit both FTs

To sum up. I am okay if we re-sign Vando, but to build a successful season with Vando as main option at PF, we MUST sign a veteran PF who can give us 10-15 minutes of mistake-free defense/offense. Ideal, unrealistic scenario is Paul Millsap, who played with Vando in DEN. But as well as I understand we cannot afford giving him more than vetmin. So in reality Vando contract should be viewed as his contract + vetmin. I also understand we MUST find guys on cheap contract, because moving forward it is possible that we have 3 guys on max contracts and no room for bench players.

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P.S. I also feel bad for McLaughlin, he is a NBA player in my opinion, he also might get significant playing time even behind DLo and Beverly, because DLo is essentially a comboguard, who can play alongside McLaughlin, and Beverly because of his aggressive physical style of defense is always a injury-risk. However, there are not many options for him, other than minimum deal.
P.P.S. I really wish we get last year 2nd round pick bigmen such as Paul Reed or Xavier Tillman, these guys are tough, smart, hardworking. Clearly they are out of reach, but lets say a deal Nowell, two 2nd round pick for Paul Reed.

KAT/Reid + Knight
Reed/Vando/MCD
MCD/Prince/Layman
Edwards/Beasley/Bolmaro
DLo/Beverly/JMac + Wright

Paul Reed is Jaden McDaniels in the eyes of Philly. They think/know they got a steal. They ain’t trading him for that package

[TaylorTag]

My recollection is that he was better on offense with Ricky on the floor. I'm worried that his very limited offensive game will be even worse with Rubio gone. I didn't put any effort into actually looking into the stats, however. Hustle guys - like Vando and Okogie - are always easier to cheer for, but hopefully the Wolves don't overpay just for that.

Past 10 or so posts are talking about Vando so jumping into the convo here…

My thoughts on Vando are: It would be ideal if we signed him to a contract that still allowed us to resign McLaughlin and have room for a minimum player, preferably a big.

Vando provides us insurance defense, which we desperately need. Okogie is a similar player and ultimately I would rather have Vando on a multi-year deal than Okogie to be honest. Vando can defend the point of attack like Okogie, which makes me think that Okogie could become expendable once we lock Vando in and maybe we get a decent big in a trade package

[shrink]

My thoughts on Vando are: It would be ideal if we signed him to a contract that still allowed us to resign McLaughlin and have room for a minimum player, preferably a big.

Vando provides us insurance defense, which we desperately need. Okogie is a similar player and ultimately I would rather have Vando on a multi-year deal than Okogie to be honest. Vando can defend the point of attack like Okogie, which makes me think that Okogie could become expendable once we lock Vando in and maybe we get a decent big in a trade package

Good post. This is exactly how I feel. So the ideal scenario for me is

1.67 McLaughlin (vet min)
1.67 Paul Millsap (vet min). Here he is a starter and a team leader.
3.53 Vanderbilt - remaining space. Maybe need to make this a three year deal, fully guaranteed, to get him to sign

If my math is right, that would take us right to the lux threshold. However, I should add a few implications about the threshold.

First, being right at the thresholds means you can’t spend money on 10 day contracts, if players get injured. Second, I am unaware whether any of these contracts have unlikely incentives that would push us over at the end of the season. Finally, lux taxes are based on the payroll at the end of the season. If we got three contracts we liked, even if they pushed us over a bit, we could hope to slide back under before April 2022 with a buy out or trade.

[Krapinsky]

Vanderbilt is critical for this team's defense going into next year. I think losing him could cost us 5 wins without a comparable replacement.

[wolves_89]

My thoughts on Vando are: It would be ideal if we signed him to a contract that still allowed us to resign McLaughlin and have room for a minimum player, preferably a big.

Vando provides us insurance defense, which we desperately need. Okogie is a similar player and ultimately I would rather have Vando on a multi-year deal than Okogie to be honest. Vando can defend the point of attack like Okogie, which makes me think that Okogie could become expendable once we lock Vando in and maybe we get a decent big in a trade package

Good post. This is exactly how I feel. So the ideal scenario for me is

1.67 McLaughlin (vet min)
1.67 Paul Millsap (vet min). Here he is a starter and a team leader.
3.53 Vanderbilt - remaining space. Maybe need to make this a three year deal, fully guaranteed, to get him to sign

If my math is right, that would take us right to the lux threshold. However, I should add a few implications about the threshold.

First, being right at the thresholds means you can’t spend money on 10 day contracts, if players get injured. Second, I am unaware whether any of these contracts have unlikely incentives that would push us over at the end of the season. Finally, lux taxes are based on the payroll at the end of the season. If we got three contracts we liked, even if they pushed us over a bit, we could hope to slide back under before April 2022 with a buy out or trade.

I think to sign Millsap the Wolves would have to pay him a bit above the vet minimum. My guess is that if Millsap was willing to come to Minnesota, Layman would get dumped using one of the 2022 2nds and Millsap would get $4-5M on a one year deal. Vanderbilt could be re-signed for around $4M/year and there would still be room for a minimum signing.

[shrink]

My thoughts on Vando are: It would be ideal if we signed him to a contract that still allowed us to resign McLaughlin and have room for a minimum player, preferably a big.

Vando provides us insurance defense, which we desperately need. Okogie is a similar player and ultimately I would rather have Vando on a multi-year deal than Okogie to be honest. Vando can defend the point of attack like Okogie, which makes me think that Okogie could become expendable once we lock Vando in and maybe we get a decent big in a trade package

Good post. This is exactly how I feel. So the ideal scenario for me is

1.67 McLaughlin (vet min)
1.67 Paul Millsap (vet min). Here he is a starter and a team leader.
3.53 Vanderbilt - remaining space. Maybe need to make this a three year deal, fully guaranteed, to get him to sign

If my math is right, that would take us right to the lux threshold. However, I should add a few implications about the threshold.

First, being right at the thresholds means you can’t spend money on 10 day contracts, if players get injured. Second, I am unaware whether any of these contracts have unlikely incentives that would push us over at the end of the season. Finally, lux taxes are based on the payroll at the end of the season. If we got three contracts we liked, even if they pushed us over a bit, we could hope to slide back under before April 2022 with a buy out or trade.

I think to sign Millsap the Wolves would have to pay him a bit above the vet minimum. My guess is that if Millsap was willing to come to Minnesota, Layman would get dumped using one of the 2022 2nds and Millsap would get $4-5M on a one year deal. Vanderbilt could be re-signed for around $4M/year and there would still be room for a minimum signing.

Good post. You could be right that it would require more than the vet minimum, and it’s been reported that the reason he hasn’t signed is because no one has exceeded it. You could also be right that it would take $4-5 mil. For those that don’t know, for a player with 10+ years of experience, he would be paid $2.6 mil, but only cost the team $1.7 .. the extra 900k paid by the NBA head office to help keep famous names in the NBA. I like the idea of moving Layman for 2nd into some team’s TPE down the road too.

If I had to guess what was happening, I imagine that Rosas made lowball offers to McLaughlin and Vanderbilt on Day One, which they rejected. Rosas said, “You’re restricted free agents - go out and see what the market is.” Every day that passes lowers their value, as teams spend their cap space, and make other plans for the minutes. Meanwhile, Rosas has probably made a vet min offer to Millsap, but so have several contenders. He has made lots of money in his career, but perhaps feels disrespected to only get vet min offers. Each player at this stage on his career has his own priorities to determine the team he chooses (contender, close to home, minutes, etc), so we aren’t necessarily out of the mix. Ideally, I’d like to get him for the vet min, but you are probably right .. it will take more money than the $2.6 he would get on a vet min deal from many teams.

[Klomp]

Vanderbilt is critical for this team's defense going into next year. I think losing him could cost us 5 wins without a comparable replacement.

Wow that's a strong statement

[shrink]

I wanted to mention that most teams have full 15-man rosters (some even more), and even half the two-way contracts have been filled.

This is good news for the front office, as McLaughlin and Vando’s negotiating power weakens every day.

[wolves_89]

I wanted to mention that most teams have full 15-man rosters (some even more), and even half the two-way contracts have been filled.

This is good news for the front office, as McLaughlin and Vando’s negotiating power weakens every day.

Unless Beverley gets moved again, I'm not sure McLaughlin is brought back. For Vanderbilt, I think he ran into a situation where opposing teams knew the Wolves would match any reasonable offer and as a result he hasn't been able to get any leverage. The early Rubio trade might have actually hurt Vanderbilt since it gave Minnesota a cushion under the luxury tax line. Without the trade I could have seen some team overpaying Vando a bit so that the offer would have pushed the Wolves over the tax line.

At this point neither Vanderbilt or McLaughlin have much bargaining power. I'm hoping the Wolves make Vanderbilt a reasonably decent offer (something like $15M/3 years) so he doesn't accept the qualifying offer. I think McLaughlin is pretty much stuck accepting a Gupta special type of contract or waiting into the season to see if some team becomes desperate for a PG (and are willing to overpay or do a sign-and-trade). I could also see McLaughlin accepting the QO just to escape restricted free agency.